I've been in this hobby for 30 years and owned many gears throughout the years, but never that many cables. I know cables can make a difference in sound quality of your system, but never dramatic like changing speakers, amplifiers, or even more importantly room treatment. Yes, I've evaluated many vaunted cables at dealers and at home over the years, but never heard dramatic effect that I would plunk $5000 for a cable. The most I've ever spent was $2700 for pair of speaker cables, and I kinda regret it to this day. So when I see cable manufacturers charging 5 figures for their latest and "greatest" speaker cables, PC, and ICs, I have to ask myself who buys this stuff. Why would you buy a $10k+ cable, when there are so many great speakers, amplifiers, DACs for that kind of money, or room treatment that would have greater effect on your systems sound? May be I'm getting ornery with age, like the water boy says in Adam Sandler's movie.
The problem is, there is too much misinformation/aka: b**s*** posted on this forum about TL and cables with fantastic magnets inside by posters who every man and his dog on here knows are NOT [emphasis added] genuine audiophiles.
"TL" is an obvious reference to a certain brand of very expensive cables, if that isn’t clear. "Cables with fantastic magnets" is an obvious reference to another brand of very expensive cables. Each of those cables is the subject of a very long-running and lengthy thread here, and in each of those threads the most prominent advocate of those cables is an individual who at times has been claimed by certain posters in the thread to be, um, insincere. Or to use some of my words that you quoted, to be "attempting to disguise an interest in promoting a product." In other words, to NOT be a "genuine audiophile," with "genuine" meaning something along the lines of "sincere," as I said.
Consider also the screen-name chosen by the author of the post we are discussing.
I believe that my interpretation was correct. Perhaps you overlooked the word "not" that the poster placed before the words "genuine audiophiles"?
almarg 6,489 posts 06-26-2016 12:53pm "It appears to me that in the initial reference to "genuine audiophile" the poster was simply using the word "genuine" to mean something along the lines of "sincere." In other words, in contrast to an audiophile who is attempting to disguise an interest in promoting a product."
That’s odd. It seems pretty clear that is NOT what he means. But I think I understand why YOU would say so. I have long maintained that it might be helpful to wear name tags that identify the wearer as a troll (T) or shill (S). ;-)
It appears to me that in the initial reference to "genuine audiophile" the poster was simply using the word "genuine" to mean something along the lines of "sincere." In other words, in contrast to an audiophile who is attempting to disguise an interest in promoting a product.
mitch2 1,270 posts 06-26-2016 12:23pm grm said, "What is the definition of a genuine Audiophile? I'm new to this hobby and entered it believing its about the music and to a lesser degree the playback hardware and wires. I have spent more on my music collection than on my system. I definitely get more excited about a great recording than on a new piece of wire" grm, good for you. Don't worry about becoming a "genuine Audiophile." Instead, go listen to and/or buy some more music....you will be happier."
I'm afraid that ship has sailed. He's got Krell and Sonus Faber. Hel-loo!
"What is the definition of a genuine Audiophile? I'm new to this hobby and entered it believing its about the music and to a lesser degree the playback hardware and wires. I have spent more on my music collection than on my system. I definitely get more excited about a great recording than on a new piece of wire"
grm, good for you. Don't worry about becoming a
"genuine Audiophile." Instead, go listen to and/or buy some more music....you will be happier.
An audiophile is someone who has found out the hard way that going from Redbook CD to 20 bit CD to 24 bit CD and going to higher sampling rates to SACD and even Blu Ray and hi res downloads doesn’t necessarily guarantee you will actually realize an increase in sound quality. The problem is finding a system that has the resolution, bandwidth and dynamic range capability to explore what you’ve already got, even with the humble and abused Redbook format. Not to mention all the audiophile tricks to improve Redbook and any other digital format performance.
many want their system to make lousy recordings sound good, or make all recordings sound the same...as opposed to your system presenting the sound as recorded..
Could not agree more, while there are certainly lousy performances I've found that as my system has improved I've been able to find merits in recordings I'd previously dismissed and also found some recordings I'd previously thought to have great sound were only exciting an attractive sympathetic response somewhere else in my system. The last thing we want is homogenization of sound, the purpose of this listener's system should be to enable us to hear into the performance however it was recorded
one of the most interesting points you refer to, is that many want their system to make lousy recordings sound good, or make all recordings sound the same...as opposed to your system presenting the sound as recorded...
Hi, What is the definition of a genuine Audiophile? I'm new to this hobby and entered it believing its about the music and to a lesser degree the playback hardware and wires. I have spent more on my music collection than on my system. I definitely get more excited about a great recording than on a new piece of wire, not that wire and hardware is not important, as I also believe it important for a system be able to resolve a great recording from a lousy one. For example, I just recently purchased a "Ultra HD 32-bit PureFlection" Miles Davis, Kind of Blue CD. I found the SQ of my system has been significantly upgraded simply by owning a great recording. What is unfortunate is how many lousy recordings there are out there. I also believe that if you are one who can spend a $100k on a system, a lousy recording will still sound lousy.
Thanks! Am interested in reading responses regarding the definition of what a genuine Audiophile is!
@dracule1 , I think it's all relative. If your system has the resolving capability, dynamics and extension to reap the full benefits of high end cables, then it's possible to justify the cost of $10k or even $30k cables. That's not to say that every cable with 3 or 4 zero's on its price ticket is good value or will synergize with a given system. It just highlights that unless you've reached the pinnacle of high end audio systems, there will be a point of which the benefit of higher priced cables begins to plateau.The problem is, there is too much misinformation/aka: b**s*** posted on this forum about TL and cables with fantastic magnets inside by posters who every man and his dog on here knows are not genuine audiophiles
Which sounds best best is mostly a function of system used in and personal preference. The MITs are more laid back and perhaps slightly rolled off on the top end and can take an edge off the music if desired while DNM is probably more balanced and coherent top to bottom.
I use DNM in one system and MIT in the other both off similar BelCanto Class D amps and the difference in sound reflects that.
Thank you, Bill. Interconnects seem to be an emotional topic and was concerned I might be bashed on one level or the other. Everybody has an opinion and I respect that!
I have introduced Audiogon to a number of friends who share in this hobby. I turn to my system often, be it either background music while doing homework, or if I need a lift when troubled. And then the most fun, just to listen to my favorite music and loose myself into it...
grm- sounds like you are a smart fellow. Glad there is fresh blood coming into the hobby-we often bemoan the fact that no younger people are "into" hi-fi, but it sounds like you are focused and thoughtful. This hobby can bring great joy on a number of levels. bill hart
Hello all, College student still very new to Audiogon. Found this forum interesting and I wanted to contribute to the question of Interconnects. The thoughts I would like to share: 1. I believe in symmetry, my whole system is Kimber Silver Streak both balanced and single ended. 2. I do not believe in drinking by the label, I listen and give every cable a chance regardless of price. 3. I believe that there is a diminishing point of return, Its akin to a parabolic curve. 4. Yes, I believe interconnects can have a significant influence on sound reproduction quality. (but more expensive vs improved SQ has a loose correlation at best IMO) 5. I believe that many/most cables have a huge markup in price to the point of some being an all out theft. Come on, are 10K single ended cables hand made in every way by Monks thinking only pure thoughts? Though I can not say I ever auditioned a 10K cable, I can say unless I win the lottery I will not. 6. I have learned through my own experience that going Balanced in my system was the best option in terms of SQ and seems to be more forgiving with respect to Interconnects.
Going back to point 4, the best IC I have auditioned were the Kimber KS series with their "Black Pearl" silver. Going back to point 5, from an engineering standpoint, I do not see where in their UMC of this cable are they able to justify the retail price. Please don't get me wrong, I really like Kimber, I just do not have the $$ to delve into their top-shelf hooch!
Hey, thank you for reading this, I guess I just had to get this off my chest and in some way positively contribute.
A person with no budget spends this money on cables for one reason, to please his friends who will say it could sound better with more expensive cables. You wouldn't put Yokohamas on your Ferrari. would you? If you answer in the affirmative, use normal cables, then man up to the derision of wannabe know-it-alls with their green CD markers and Special wooden volume knobs, while we sane people enjoy our music.
I recently did a historical inventory of cables I have owned over the years, does not include ones I have borrowed from friends and the cable company. The number is 63! I was shocked and shared it with another audiophile friend and much to my surprise not only was he not surprised he figures his number is higher! LOL!
Most have come and gone but i still own many. I have used my current cables for a while - how I settled on those is a mystery! Some have been ultra expensive, most mid priced, and some value. Currently using cables considered in the mid-priced range and the ultra expensive are gone. I think I expected too much from them. But I will not likely drop that kind of dough again on cables.
Just a note on this thread - it has been entertaining! Keep it up please!
If you dont know why, ask how... Geoff: "One assumes you must be one of them socialists.
" Accusations aside, we have a problem of overpriced cables, AND real life differences. What about sticking with the empirical method, everyone who has long term listening experience with different cables speak up, the rest keeps silent? Oystein
dracule1 OP 966 posts 06-23-2016 8:17pm Geoffkait:"You apparently don’t seem to know that going to audio stores is no way to audition cables or anything else for that matter. For one thing they keep changing their equipment so much the system never gets a chance to break in."
to which Dracula replied,
"Geoff, you're so precious. Again you talk like you know something when you really don't. All cables I audition are in my own setup or in my friends setup that I know well. It's like shooting fish in a barrel."
Something's wrong somewhere. Do you have all thumbs for fingers? How the heck should I know why you don't get good results like most other audiophiles.
dracule1 OP 966 posts 06-23-2016 8:49pm GeoffkAit: "Nobody pays retail. Not in this market. Strawman alert. Example: a dealer pays what, 50-60% of retail. And sells them for whatever he can get, let's say 80-90% of retail. So, no one is paying retail. Gee, do you think the manufacturer knows that everyone wants a deal."
to which dracula replied,
"No geoff, try more like 10-20% of retail for dealers for expensive wires. Nordost dealers will offer close to 50% off retail and still make a huge profit. Even at 50% off, they're not worth the price to most audiophiles, like those $10k Nordost jumper cables let alone their $50k speaker cables. Reasonable cable manufactures who sell cables in the range up to around $2k have their dealers pay 50% of retail."
Don't know why you have your panties in a twist. In a capitalist system one is free to make as much profit as possible. Besides it's whatever the market will bear. You say they aren't worth the price but price is defined as what a buyer under no pressure to buy will pay to a seller who's under no pressure to sell. At least in capitalist countries. One assumes you must be one of them socialists.
Nordost has been around a long time. Someone must be buying their cables. Any idea how many of their top of the line stuff they sell? How many $40,000 pairs of speaker cables are sold in a year? Transparent Audio makes some great low and mid price cables...never tried Nordost
"Nobody pays retail. Not in this market. Strawman alert. Example: a dealer pays what, 50-60% of retail. And sells them for whatever he can get, let's say 80-90% of retail. So, no one is paying retail. Gee, do you think the manufacturer knows that everyone wants a deal."
No geoff, try more like 10-20% of retail for dealers for expensive wires. Nordost dealers will offer close to 50% off retail and still make a huge profit. Even at 50% off, they're not worth the price to most audiophiles, like those $10k Nordost jumper cables let alone their $50k speaker cables. Reasonable cable manufactures who sell cables in the range up to around $2k have their dealers pay 50% of retail.
"You apparently don’t seem to know that going to audio stores is no way to audition cables or anything else for that matter. For one thing they keep changing their equipment so much the system never gets a chance to break in. "
Geoff, you're so precious. Again you talk like you know something when you really don't. All cables I audition are in my own setup or in my friends setup that I know well. It's like shooting fish in a barrel.
Resale prices over the long run are most likely the only reliable metric to bank on when it comes to determining value.
Mapman, I understand your point but I look at it differently. I guess it depends if you are going to keep stuff or resell stuff but if you plan to keep things for awhile, another measure of value could be considered the enjoyment something brings to the buyer/user.
I just finished auditioning two very good monoblock amplifiers in my system with the intent to keep one pair or the other. One was designed and manufactured by a highly-regarded designer whose products command universally high resale prices. The other was designed and manufactured by another well-regarded designer that mostly flies below the mainstream radar and whose products do not command anywhere near the resale prices (as a percentage of the new price) as the first designer. I liked the "below the radar" amplifier better in my system and will keep that amplifier and sell the other. In this case, the amplifier I enjoyed the most and kept provides the higher value to me.
Geoff,
The only opinion that matters is the person's who is selling the thing.
mapman 13,405 posts 06-23-2016 1:04pm "Obviously how much anything is worth is a matter of opinion and opinions will vary."
The only opinion that matters is the person’s who is selling the thing.
"Resale prices over the long run are most likely the only reliable metric to bank on when it comes to determining value."
i see. You’re investing in audio. That’s so funny.
"Another truth would seem to be that those resale values are almost always way less then original retail price especially when it comes to more commodity type products like wires."
again, you seem to be under the impression audio is supposed to be an investment.
"So its fine to pay a lot for nice new wires just don’t expect anyone else is likely to pay you the same amount if you paid full retail."
Nobody pays retail. Not in this market. Strawman alert. Example: a dealer pays what, 50-60% of retail. And sells them for whatever he can get, let's say 80-90% of retail. So, no one is paying retail. Gee, do you think the manufacturer knows that everyone wants a deal.
"I hope I’m wrong but I suspect in many cases here touting new expensive wires or other accessories that the touters did not pay full retail yet those influenced may well end up doing just that."
Obviously how much anything is worth is a matter of opinion and opinions will vary.
Resale prices over the long run are most likely the only reliable metric to bank on when it comes to determining value.
Another truth would seem to be that those resale values are almost always way less then original retail price especially when it comes to more commodity type products like wires.
So its fine to pay a lot for nice new wires just don't expect anyone else is likely to pay you the same amount if you paid full retail.
I hope I'm wrong but I suspect in many cases here touting new expensive wires or other accessories that the touters did not pay full retail yet those influenced may well end up doing just that.
dracule1 OP 963 posts 06-23-2016 1:58am Geoffkait: "I never said you did say there’s NO difference between cables. What you keep saying, though, is that there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in sound quality between very expensive cables and inexpensive cables. And you yourself provided evidence to the contrary when you linked the blind test that showed otherwise."
To which dracula replied,
"Sigh. You just don’t get it do you? How many times do I have to repeat myself. CORRELATION, CORRELATION, CORRELATION!!! You’re a horrible troll."
Oh, I get it alright. You apparently don’t seem to know that going to audio stores is no way to audition cables or anything else for that matter. For one thing they keep changing their equipment so much the system never gets a chance to break in. Hel-loo! You can repeat your correlation mantra as many times as you like. It still makes you seem like a naive troll grasping at straws. Some guy somewhere claiming that some audio product or another is too high priced. Yeah, like that’s not a troll we’ve seen a hundred times.
jl35 1,057 posts 06-23-2016 8:28am not to mention the many who do not have to choose...they can do the $4k room treatment, a batch of $10k-40k cables, and $100k+ components...without concern with how much these items cost to produce...
Eggs ackly! Not to mention that room treatments are not intended to replace - nor can they replace - cable upgrades in the first place. I’m pretty sure they call that a Strawman Argument. Cables and room treatments are two independent variables. The enthusiastic and thorough audiophile must actually pay attention to a host of issues, and address them according to his wants and budgetary constraints.
not to mention the many who do not have to choose...they can do the $4k room treatment, a batch of $10k-40k cables, and $100k+ components...without concern with how much these items cost to produce...
"Geoff, you’re not even making sense. My $4k in room treatments has done more to improve the sound of my system than any $40k speaker cable or $10k interconnect I’ve auditioned."
Most likely you’re going to the wrong places for auditions. Have you given any consideration to uh, widening your circle of audio friends? I have a nagging suspicion you might be following the wrong sheep. Can I suggest placing an ad in your local newspaper for a HiFi store that can demonstrate expensive cables successfully? Surely there must be someone. Best of luck with that.
Of course the pet rocks sold well. It’s all in the marketing. The original idea for the Pet Rock was actually PT Barnum’s Stone Soup, a concept not unlike my Brilliant Pebbles as fate would have it. Coincidence? But the pet rock’s big attraction was the packaging.
"The genius was in the packaging. Each Pet Rock came in a cardboard carrying case, complete with air holes, tenderly nestled on a bed of excelsior. Mr. Dahl’s droll masterstroke was his accompanying manual on the care, feeding and house training of Pet Rocks. "If when you remove the rock from its box it appears to be excited, place it on some old newspapers,” the manual read. “The rock will know what the paper is for and will require no further instruction. It will remain on the paper until you remove it.”"
Thus was born the Intelligent Rock. A harbinger of Things to Come?
"Well, of course you can find cables that are much more expensive than your $4K room treatment; however, $4K is much more than most audiophiles spend on cables. Besides, your $4K pales in comparison to what better heeled audiophiles spend on room treatments. Ergo, your contention that one can obtain better results for a lot less money (than expensive cables) by employing things like room treatments is patently false."
Geoff, you're not even making sense. My $4k in room treatments has done more to improve the sound of my system than any $40k speaker cable or $10k interconnect I've auditioned. I need a translator. Or is this another one of your bad attempts at trolling? If you're claiming some audiophiles spending way more than myself in room treatments is proof that my contention is false, then you're one marble way from frontal lobe dementia. You don't know much these audiophiles are spending, and you have no clue how much of an improvement the acoustic treatment is having relative to cables, especially given your idea of acoustic treatments is brass bowls, etc. Man, I thought you're smarter than this, but you disappointment me every time.
It's pretty obvious you have very little knowledge of room treatments given what you've sited as room treatments in you past comment. Go to GIK Acoustics site and other sources and educate yourself on scientically validated acoustic room treatment, which is one of the very few things in high end where one can actually CORRELATE measurements with what we hear. There's that pesky word you seem to have so much trouble understanding.
"dracule1 - why don't you contact the cable manufacturers whose products you find disagreeable & ask them to justify their prices...? Then you can post the response..."
Infection, funny that you ask. I did do that at an audio show. One manufacturer was dumbfounded that I even asked the question and fumbled to give me an answer. In the end, he said something to the effect of his cables being the Mercedes of cables. Righhhhhhhhhht. Others will try to overwhelm you with their proprietary but unproven technology hoping you'll buy into it.
Then, I called a well known cable manucture who makes cables up to about $2000 to $3000. His most expensive power cord is about $900 for 1.5 meters. I asked him what goes into $15,000 power cord. He is a metallurgist and an engineer. He basically told me he couldn't justify the cost of such power cord based on his knowledge of price of metals, insulators, cost of manufacture, advertising, and distribution. Either he doesn't know what he's talking about, which I highly doubt because I own several of his power cords and would put them up against any PC, or there is a lot of price gauging in high end. He is not my friend, and I have no loyalty to him. I'm just his customer.
"I never said you did say there’s NO difference between cables. What you keep saying, though, is that there is NO SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE in sound quality between very expensive cables and inexpensive cables. And you yourself provided evidence to the contrary when you linked the blind test that showed otherwise."
Sigh. You just don't get it do you? How many times do I have to repeat myself. CORRELATION, CORRELATION, CORRELATION!!! You're a horrible troll.
Two, your contention that blind tests reveal that all expensive cables are no better than cheap cables is either your own puffery and untrue or if you have been involved in a blind test, which BTW I actually doubt, that produced negative results I suggest it is simply an outlier and can be thrown out.
Basically if if your test results aren't what I want them to be they are "an outlier" and can be thrown out. Too bad that doesn't work in court🙄 And by the way drac I don't think you should exclude coat hangers from your statement. They probably sound better than some 2k cables. "
One thing I've learned about Geoff is that he is incompetent at trolling. He will repeatedly stick his foot in his mouth, and then pretend like he never said or meant it even though you quote him verbatim. He will try to come off being "cool" posting what he thinks is witty and then get all defensive when someone points out his contradictions.
I agree there are a few pretty incompetently designed expensive cables that may have trouble competing with coat hangers. Imagine the controversy if I started the thread this way. Watts and Geoff would have their pants up to their nipples and challenging me to a dual.
Isn't it interesting how, at times, Audiogon threads resemble, or even are, microcosms reflecting the growing fear and cynicism of our current epoch?
There is a way to be satirically and cynically funny and informative simultaneously. Effort is needed to keep it there without collapsing into personal jabs. Perhaps this is also reflective of the apathy meter readings amongst some of our fellows, sometimes.
analogluvr , Did you ever try to sell bag of rocks for $$$?
It doesn't matter how you make your career. If that's the way than the way is found and the wealth is built by once again convinsing fool. The end result is all that matters. Same applies to wire and any other manufacturers. Kimber cable has affordable wires and mega-priced wires for foolish rich parents' children. Why should you blame them?
Oh god Geoff, go sell a bag of rocks or something. That is called paraphrasing, you did say it, Hel-looo!
Do you know what irony means? The definition is Geoffkait whining about someone mischaracterizing something he's said, when he basically makes a career out of doing that to people he disagrees with.....
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