Well, FWIW, I have decided to stick with the floor standers (Silverline). They sound excellent. Kind of concerned that unless one has a fat wallet, the monitors will be too much chance of going backward instead of forward. Thanks for the input
Anyone Successfully Go from Floor Standers to Bookshelf Monitors w/ Subs?
My system is in a Large Living room which opens to dining room & Kitchen. I figure about 6k cu ft. I have Silverline Sonata speakers now with subs. Unfortunately I did not build my addition when I should have 10-15 yrs ago. Now I'm not really up to the task. Too old & wore out. So I'd love to make the LR a prettier room for my wife. One thing we talked about was the large speakers, and possibly using Watkins Gen 4 monitors. But as good as they sound, I am concerned about the ability to fill the room, or at least my listening area. As I understand, it is about moving air. I cannot see how a 6.5 & 1 inch speaker can move as much as a 10, 7, 3 & 1 inch. So I am quite concerned about that. Right now, the system sounds very pleasing to both of us. We don't want to take a backward step but can live with a sideways step if it is more visually pleasing.
Has anyone made this kind of a step from floor standers to monitors, both with subs, in a large room, with success? Or am I thinking correctly about the small speakers inability to move the proper amount of air for the room size? Thanks for your help.
OH, FWIW, The addition may not be completely out of the picture. But it depends on whether I can get one of my previous sub contractors to do a large part of it.
Has anyone made this kind of a step from floor standers to monitors, both with subs, in a large room, with success? Or am I thinking correctly about the small speakers inability to move the proper amount of air for the room size? Thanks for your help.
OH, FWIW, The addition may not be completely out of the picture. But it depends on whether I can get one of my previous sub contractors to do a large part of it.
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I went from bookshelf to floorstanders, then to bookshelf again. There are small bookshelf, there are medium-sized bookshelf and there are large bookshelves. Some example of large bookshelves are from the likes of Harbeth 40.2 and ATC. It will depend on the size of the room as well. Personally I favor bookshelf for its practicality, lower cost (in comparison to similar range floorstanders) and 3-dimensional sound in medium to large rooms. I don’t prefer using subwoofers with bookshelves and run them full range even though they do not have the capability of hitting the lowest octaves. |
Dear @lee_r_allen : ""
In my current system, the mid/bass drivers handle both the midrange and mid bass, down to the 24dB sloped crossover point at 55 Hz. I think the wider bandwidth the mid/bass drivers handle results in just a bit of compromise compared to the dedicated midrange driver. "" Absolutely rigth about that " heavy " compromise for that speaker driver. You own very good quality system but your speakers as any other passive two way design develops high levels of IMD and THD rigth on that speaker driver. I think that you can forget for ever the Revels if you mates subwoofers with the Micro Ones crossing both: subs and main speakers at 80hz-90hz or even 100hz. In that way you liberates the Mini Ones on those frequencies that are developing the " problem ". The rewards that comes from that crossover changes are outstanding. I think you could try it. Btw, the best self powered subs you can mates with any main speakers is the Mini Sub by EA not your JLs. R. |
Depends on your listening level. If you listen loud in a large room, then I would stick with 3-way bookshelf speakers. You want something that has a driver that can be dedicated for mid-bass (assuming a 80hz crossover) that can play the 80-200hz range dynamically without the output bleeding into the mids because of excessive driver excursion. |
I went from the following 2 channel system in a very large listening space: Revel Salon 2 speakers dCS Puccini Player and Puccini U-Clock Krell 402e stereo amp Transparent MM2 Ultra Interconnects & I wire speaker cables PS Audio power plant AC conditioner To a much smaller system (speakers) upon down sizing: -dCS Bartok with headphone amp and dCS Rossini Master Clock -Dan D’Agostino Progression Stereo amp -Krell Ultra 4K UHD Foundation Pre/Processor -Transparent Gen 5 Ultra Interconnects and speaker cables -PS Audio AC power conditioner -Evolution Acoustics Micro One stand monitors (these are measured to be at -3dB at 35 Hz) -2 JL Audio Fathom F110 subwoofers -Custom, highly modified high-end Mac Mini with high-quality linear, ultra quiet outboard power supply for the music server, running Roon -High-quality power cables of various brands for all components (MIT, Cardas, Shunyata, AudioQuest, etc.) I am quite happy with the ‘downsized’ system. To be fair, this system is more expensive than the older one despite the much more expensive speakers (Revel Salon 2’s list for $22K). Of course the digital front end in the new system is better, and all the cables have also been upgraded. The only area of the audio spectrum that was slightly better in the old system My view is that the only area in which the older system was superior is the midrange. Not in a dramatic way, but a tiny bit more detail and robustness. I attribute that to the Salon 2’s having a 4.5 inch driver dedicated to the midrange. The Salon 2 is a 4 way six driver system, versus what now is essentially a three way system. In my current system, the mid/bass drivers handle both the midrange and mid bass, down to the 24dB sloped crossover point at 55 Hz. I think the wider bandwidth the mid/bass drivers handle results in just a bit of compromise compared to the dedicated midrange driver. One other thing that is not an issue for me—the standmounts will start to compress a bit at very high volumes, well before the Salin 2’s do. However, I don’t listen at those volume levels anymore. Other than that, I would say both the high-end and bottom end are certainly better in my newer, smaller system, and that it is superior overall to the older system. Some of that is due to the superior digital front end and upgraded cabling throughout the system. There is no doubt that as good as the bass is in the case of the Salon is, even with an amp like the Evo 402e (400/800/1600 very high quality watts per channel into 8/4/2 ohm loads—the Salon 2’s require this type of power to shine in a large room), the 2 JL Audio Fathom F110’s are simply, easily better. My Progression Stereo amp is also quite powerful, 300/600/1200 watts into 8/4/2 ohm loads, which is more than adequate in my room. It is also a bit better amp due to newer, better design and superior parts, and should be since it is $4K more than the Evo 402e was. Furthermore, my current system is very well balanced with regard to matching the subs and the stand monitors due to a combination of factors—the Krell Foundation Pre/Processor and the subs both are amazingly good at matching things up in a system like this. DSP technology along with an included microphone in both cases automatically matches each speaker (in my case, a hybrid 2.1/5.1 system) in terms of ensuring that the signal from the stand mounted monitors reaches the sweet spot at exactly the same time as that produced by the woofers, center speaker and rear speakers. This is the case in both 2.1 channel and 5.1 channel modes. The Krell also allows one to pick both the crossover point and slope (12 or 24 dB/octave), and vary the volume level of the subs on the fly easily via the remote. This a fantastic feature you won’t get in a ‘fixed’ speaker system like the Salon 2. It’s great to be able to either augment or reduce the bass according to the recording—some have too much bass, some have too little, and this capability makes the system much more satisfying to me, as recordings that are too full or too lean on bottom end are quickly and easily adjusted for a much more satisfying experience. Final note—I am getting ready to upgrade the EA Micro Ones to Magico A1’s. After that I intend to upgrade the interconnects and speaker cables to either Transparent Reference or XL levels, and upgrade from the dCS Bartok with headphone amp, likely to a dCS Rossini DAC (will keep my Rossini Clock). Hope this long post helps—one can certainly do very well with a system consisting of high quality stand mounted speakers and high-quality subs. One important note—I believe the best route is with smaller, very high-end subs like the JL Audio Fathom F110’s I have. These 10 inch subs are faster than the larger alternatives, and therefore blend/match better with the mid/bass drivers in the standmounts than larger subwoofers. They are quite compact as well. A pair does a phenomenal job in a room that is large, but not huge (mine is an open living area that has an 18’ ceiling, is 32’ long by 19’ wide. |
I'm in the process of just going with standmount speakers. They are just so easy to move/swap out. Let's face it, moving spiked floorstanders around in your listening area isn't very fun and I'm tired of asking for help. Trade off is less bass but you actually get use to it after a while and some of my floorstanders didn't have enough bass anyway. I have stereo subs but sometimes I don't even turn them on because of what was mentioned above. |
@OP, lots of recommendations for this speaker or that speaker but to directly address your concerns : " I am concerned about the ability to fill the room" and "We don't want to take a backward step but can live with a sideways step" @spenav mentioned some good points but disagree that room correction is necessary. Without going into too much theory, know that it is entirely possible to assemble a stand-mount speaker and multi sub setup that will outperform even very expensive and huge floor-standers. Bass from a pair of floor- standers will never energise a room smoothly simply because the speakers are placed where they can best create an image and sound stage. If the speakers were located where the bass was given priority then for sure there would be no stage or image apparent. However, when separating duties, the monitors can be easily positioned in the optimum spot for imaging and the subs can be positioned where they integrate seamlessly. It takes 3 or 4 subs to achieve best results. You have 2 subs (from your post?) so get 1 or 2 more. To experiment perhaps borrow a couple of subs, even a pair of 8" subs will do as they are used as tuning devices. With this approach no DSP or room correction is necessary. I encourage you to read documents and articles by Earl Geddes, Floyd Toole and others on Distributed Bass Array (DBA) The multi-sub approach and some bass traps optimises bass performance and this really needs to be heard to understand. The peaks in the bass frequencies are reduced and the nulls and partial nulls are filled in some. Nulls, which I am sure you understand, contain no information. It's MIA. EQ and DSP can't manufacture this info. Going this route is truly transformative and would be no sideways step. Think huge step up with room filling sound, probably better imaging from monitors with a narrower baffle and detail not previously heard. Moving air is the job of the bass drivers. Sure. Just place them in the right spot. |
For more than 15 years my speakers were Infinity Kappa 8.1s which are phenomenal towers. I struggled at first and tried a few different smaller speakers before I developed the ones I use now. They move a ton of air and are rather extraordinary. There is a big difference between some of the more modest models and what you get from more elite speakers. I love mine (Verdant Audio) but you should listen to Wilson Benesch's like the P1s or Vertexes, Magico A1s, Focal Kanta and Sopra #1s or even Raidho's monitors. None are cheap but they sound big. |
I just went from standmount/bookshelves - all i've ever had - to my first set of floorstanders (F208's)... The thing i've noticed most is with the big speakers, the performance sounds bigger... Life sized human voices and instruments. Being a car guy, I like to compare it similarly...You can have a 4 cylinder turbo that makes as much torque and horsepower as a big liter V8 or V10, but it will just never ever feel the same. |
I've just taken that route. Had large OBs and changed to ProAc Tablette with two large sub-woofers. This is filling a 15' x 32' x 8' room that opens with an extension of 16' X 10' . It fills the room quite a bit. But only when the subs are on. The small bookshelf speakers will not cut it all by themselves. The speakers are fed via a 20 watts class A tube amp. The subs are 15" with 250 watts amps each. One per channel. Works for me. |
The smaller stand mounted speakers I have heard do not seem to carry the same gravitas as larger floor standers. My stand mounts have dual 9-inch woofers each crossed over at
360Hz to a 6-inch midrange and they do just fine down to about 40Hz where the dual subs take over. One question for the group is whether there is a benefit to getting the woofers up higher away from the floor (i.e., stand mounted speakers vs. floor standers). When I went from moderately large floor standers to my current stand mounted speakers, the bass cleaned up considerably, which seemed to add resolution throughout the entire frequency range, without sacrificing body or fullness. The deep bass (below 45Hz) from the subs is also better controlled and cleaner, and probably deeper too, than what my previous ported floor standers provided. |
The advantage with subs (depending on sub quality), is you can place the bass drivers where they perform best in your room, which is usually somewhere other than where the mid and treble speakers perform best. Subs and monitors take more effort to dial-in, but, the results are often superior to floorstanders IME, especially when limited by a budget of a mere mortal. |
I would suggest a pair of speakers that are designed to be put into the corners of the room. The Audio Note
AN-E/LX HEMP
might work for you. I realize that these are not bookshelf speakers nor would you need a subwoofer, but being that they are designed for corner placement your wife might accept that as an alternative. I know they will sound good in a larger room and they come in a lot of finish choices that should appeal to your wife, |
No difference at all if set up correctly with tweeters at ear level. There are very few floor standers that will go as low as good subwoofers so, given the choice I would go with stand monitors and subs. But, floor standers with sub could potentially be the same. I depends on the coloration of the speaker. Digital correction and subwoofer management is an excellent idea. All my friends that have heard my system all have eventually add digital correction to their systems and nobody is complaining. It makes getting subwoofers right so much easier. |
In my opinion you will likely be disappointed. I purchased a pair of Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M's to replace my B&W DM6's as I thought I would be down sizing and they would be perfect in a smaller home. I loved the full size Cremona's however was told they needed a lot of room. The Auditors were beautiful to look at and the sound of voices were butter. They lacked bass though so after much investigation I purchased the suggested Rel Sub. Better though very hard to find the proper placement and unfortunately the mid bass could not be replicated I was used to with the B&W's. Luckily for me I bought both speakers and sub used and was able to re coup my expenditure on them. As I had not sold my B&W's I went about replacing caps (my brother in law gets the credit there) in the crossover and that upgraded the sound though I do miss the beautiful Auditors. Needless to say full sound of the floor standing trumped the beauties. |
I have a small listening space. So I opted to go with SF Sonetto 1’s with the matching Gravis 1 subwoofer. Basically, It’s a Rel T5i with a down firing 8” woofer. Anyway, this combination works well in my room. The Sonettos’s are great at creating a good imaging sound stage and the Gravis 1 subwoofer helps the Sonetto speakers provide a good tight bass response that’s enjoyable to listen to. Granted, its not earth shattering or chest thumping bass. But then again, I’ve never been a Bass Head. |
There's no way to duplicate a big woofer playing mid and upper bass. I've gone back and forth and the energy isn't there without a big woofer, 8" minimum. The only way I've heard small woofer speakers rival big ones is nearfield. This is a good way to go in my opinion and I'm surprised more people don't do it. If you want your small speakers to rock put them a couple of feet away and they'll do a lot better than they do across the room. |
I just set up a pair of the new Fleetwood Audio Deville Monitors. very big sounding speaker...>I’m not even sure if I need my sub with it. Here’s a quick video I made of them...video is better than a picture. https://youtu.be/hFoneEceqSY |
Wow! So many responses to answer. Thanks guys. FWIW, the Watkins Gen 4 have a return policy and Watkins Stereo is about 3 miles from my house. So, they wouldn’t be that hard to return. Once again, I have 2 Rel S5 subs (with Sumiko S-10 badges) So the subs are adequate for the job and I like them. I agree with @rauliruegas about the setup and crossover points. I have also played live music (drums & vocals) so I KNOW what a bass guitar should sound like and these subs do that well. @allenf1963 We may be neighbors. I’ve lived in Kingsport for 25 yrs and have known Bill Watkins & his son for 35-40 yrs. I used to go up to just talk with Sr from time to time prior to his death. Bill Jr, says he was a genius and I believe it. I know about his patents & I believe he holds some on the Gen 4 too. Both speaker drivers are modified by Bill to get the desired outcome. He told me before he produced them that he was working on the best speaker he had ever produced. Again, Bill Jr says they are better than the WE-1’s. There again, Jr’s hearing is not as good as his fathers from what I understand (tinnitus) Nonetheless, both of them are very knowledgeable and are men of high integrity, IMO |
There are many floor standing speakers that are quite thin and uses 8 + 6 inch drivers or many 8 inch drivers. One of those with a sub may be a good compromise. Could look good and fill enough of the room. You can also listen to the Kii Three which moves a lot more air than you would think. But that would replace your amps as well. |
When I moved some years ago, I ended up with a smaller listening space. Found that my Vandersteen 2CEs just didn't work well in close quarters. They need room to breathe and that's something I didn't have. Ended up replacing them with Kef LS50s and a Rel T/5i sub. The LS50 coincident/coaxial driver design works very well in nearfield listening situations. |
I replaced older KEF Reference 107/2s with newer KEF Reference 1s supplemented by a pair of Velodyne HGS-15s. The sound was superb for smaller orchestrations, e.g., the jazz and baroque I prefer, but disappointing for large orchestrations until I raised the crossover from 40 to 80 Hz. That transformed the setup, making the soundstage seem larger and deeper, and large orchestrations as enjoyable as they were with the 107/2s. I use a SMS-1 bass manager that provides acoustic room correction, and plan to add a third HGS-15 diagonally across the room, behind the listening area. |
I did but calling them monitors is hardly accurate. Aerial LR5s with dual Aerial SW-12 subs. The "monitors" are each 105 pounds with dual 9-inch woofers. On their Signature Sound Anchor stands each speaker/stand weighs about 175 pounds. The subs, also on SA stands, weigh 157 pounds each. With enough power, the sound is dynamic, clean, and tonally rich. |
Sometimes you have to sacrifice in life, and moving from a fine floorstanding speaker to a fine bookshelf speaker with subs in a large room is going to be a downgrade imho. I sadly have had to make that exact move due to health issues and wife’s requests, and there simply aren’t any bookshelf speakers that can replace PSB Synchrony Ones. You’ll still enjoy the music, but you wont be sitting in the front row anymore. |
@artemus_5 , I grew up in Kingsport, TN, and have been in and out of Watkins Stereo Center since 1978. Bill Watkins makes incredible speakers -- always has. His original WS-1A speakers are highly coveted and hard to find nowadays. You will love the Generation 4 speakers, they sound incredible and have more bass than any Bookshelf Monitor speaker I've ever heard. Watkins Stereo Center sold a popular Hi-Fi package in the late 1970's -- a Dual turntable, a Kenwood receiver, and a pair of WS-1A's. If you were in high school with this setup at home, everyone knew where the Friday night after the football game kegger was taking place! |
My LR also opens to a large dining room, kitchen, and hallway. i have 2 speaker systems. One is a pair of floor standing towers. The other is a quite small pair of bookshelf monitors I built 30 years ago, with a dome tweeter and 5-1/4” midwoofers. Both pair use the common Velodyne DLS subs. The only difference is the sound character between the floorstanders and small bookshelf speakers. Both fill the space equally as well. But, I do have to change the crossover on the subs. 40 Hz for the floorstanding towers and 100 Hz for the bookshelf units. I have a remote control for the subs. Sometimes I just like listening to my own designed and built speakers. For their size, I’d put them against ANY bookshelf speaker sold today. As for SQ and filling the space, both are equal. |
I have and never look back. When done right with 3 to 4 subs, you will ask yourself why you didn’t think of it sooner. The location requirements for bass drivers and everything else are very different. It makes sense to separate these two into subwoofers and stand mounted speakers. Then each challenge can be tackled separately and independently. You will need room correction software to integrate the two successfully but the results (visually and sonically) are to die for. |
@artemus_5 If the Watkins Stereo Generation Four monitors are as good as the are reviewed here: https://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/watkins-stereo-generation-four-loudspeaker They may just work, but BEWARE of ’audiophile reviewers’. For the same price I’d go with the Tekton Impact Monitors, and they would blend in nicely with many a subwoofer. |
I made the transition years ago, but and this is a big but, my monitors are the (almost) vintage Miller & Kreisel MPS-2510 professional studio monitors paired with (2) PSA (18") 1801’s subwoofers and this ensemble can handle anything I throw at them. The subs were a breeze to integrate and the monitors with their (2) midrange and (3) tweeter vertical configuration have a wide dispersion soundstage and are MADE to and crossed over to be used with SUBS and NOT to be used as stand alone monitors only. I will say this: The bigger the sub the better as I kept upgrading to bigger subs until I got it to SOUND right in my room for me. The unusual thing I find about the bigger subs is you don’t have to turn the gain up as much to integrate them vs using a smaller sub, which may sound counterintuitive. |
I went from large Axiom M80 floor standing speakers in my family room, to Focal 906 bookcase sized on stands. The Focals sounded much better and filled the room just as well. They also visually were much more appealing to look at and my wife was happy with the look. I opted for dual subs which lived at the back of the room (and for a time actually acted as rear stands for my surround speakers LOL). Very satisfying to listen to in a less than perfect room. Then I moved to a new house and even though the family room was larger every wall was glass so no room for speakers of any kind ha ha. I went back to floor standers in my basement listening cave but only because I scored some on Craigslist that a guy didn’t know what he had for 100 bucks when they should’ve been 1000 or more. Vintage 90s floor standers but I still use the dual subs even with them. I do miss the Focals however and keep my eye out for a used pair of 926 or 936 floor standers (which again would be much more visually appealing the older 80s and 90s speakers are not very attractive boxes for the most part). |
Moving air? What kind of bass do you prefer? Tooth rattling or well integrated or both? Bass is a personal preference. "Moving air" isn't the whole part of it. There will be scads of advice on this topic. The best sound and the physical appeal seems to be your goal. I have heard book standers with subs that out perform floor standers and others that do not. Speaker placement, especially with subs, is paramount. When I say subs that means more than one. Ask millercarbon about the swamp effect. Room correction, room treatments, and other tools can help to achieve a good sound. If you go the bookshelf path with subs be prepared to tune them to your room and your music tastes. Especially speaker placement if the room geometry allows. Here's an informative article on subs...... https://www.soundonsound.com/sound-advice/all-you-wanted-know-about-subwoofers |
