Amp/Preamps vs. High end AV Receivers

I find the amps in most AV Receivers quite lacking...

you might try moving in stages by adding a separate power amp and using your avr as a pre--almost all mass market avrs benefit from external amping. you can always get a separate pre later.

What are the speakers that you have or interested to power sufficiently?.

When you have separates, the equipment does not have to share power supplies. This reduces intermodulations and for that reason alone allows for better sound.

But there are additional benefits- frequently separates have better power supplies, better heatsinks (in the case of transistor amps), usually better quality parts and overall better circuits.

What is the model of your current receiver?
What speakers are you using? How many? 2, 2.1, 5.1, etc.?
What percentage of your listening time is movies/TV vs Music?  50/50, 75/25, etc.?
Room size?
Do you need video switching form the receiver/separates?

This information will give folks a reasonable chance of addressing your questions. Without it, it's just shots in the dark.....

Thanks for all your responses and let me add more details to get more intelligent inputs.

AV Receiver - Onkyo TX NR809 (Model from 2012) (HDMI, but no 4K)
5.1 Setup
Bowers & Wilkins Speakers and Sub.
Front: B&W CM8
Center: B&W HTM62
Rears: B&W CM5
Sub: ASW610

I watch movies and listen to music + music videos (frequently).

Hope this helps to give more solid inputs. 

Thanks for all your responses and let me add more details to get more intelligent inputs.

AV Receiver - Onkyo TX NR809 (Model from 2012) (HDMI, but no 4K)
5.1 Setup
Bowers & Wilkins Speakers and Sub.
Front: B&W CM8
Center: B&W HTM62
Rears: B&W CM5
Sub: ASW610

I watch movies and listen to music + music videos (frequently).
Looking to upgrade to Dolby Atmos Setup 5.1.2. Have not decided on the speakers for .2. My current receiver does not support it.

Hope this helps to give more solid inputs.

Well, I’m still using my TX-NR809 in my bedroom system. The thing is a 40 pound beast, and I’m not sure you can get much better audio quality with any of these newer AVRs.

And 4K capability is not really required in an AVR if you get a UHD Blu-ray player that has dual HDMI outputs, one for video and one for audio. You connect the audio one to your AVR and the video one to your 4K TV. This is what I’m currently doing with my Denon AVR-X5200 and Oppo UDP-203 in the family room system.

I’m also using a separate power amp for the front L/R channels in both the bedroom and family room systems.

Edit:  I see you added that you want to go to Dolby Atmos.  That WOULD require a new AVR or Pre-pro. 

when I replaced the front channels on my Onkyo AVR with a same power Parasound amp, I was quite surprised at the huge difference in sound quality, both for music and movies...

For your speaker surround system you don't really need AV separates cause they will cost you more. Just get a very good and very competent av receiver.
Get the Rotel RAP-1580 av receiver for your B&W speaker surround system. The Rotel will pair really well with the B&W. The RAP-1580 is Rotel’s only AV receiver model and it currently retails for $3800. It is a great sounding receiver and its stereo performance for music playbacks is pretty good especially coming from an AV receiver.

Or at cheaper price point I highly recommend the Cambridge Audio CRX200 av receiver currently retails for $2k. It’s pretty musical sounding av receiver. It will sound good on your B&W.

Integrated Amplifiers are another story ,seperate almost allways are better 
do to separation of RF, and noise , and bigger power supplies and capacitance .
that being said .my brother has the latest Gryphon Diablo ,and it is almost 85 lbs 
and Everything Premium ,and I am into system modding it is a work of art 
and will compete with ease Any seperates in the $20k plus range .
an integrated can have advantages if properly implemented such as no extra cables ,losses in signal there direct wiring and coupled  can have its own synergy 
with amp preamp in one package .$17k is not cheap and their $4k digital module 
is Excellent . If he ever sells it .i will take it Off his hands . I have the Very good Danish Gato 400-S Digital integrated amp that I feel a true bargain at $6500
i  have spent a homes worth on Audio overthe years and owned a audio store 
in The U.K . I feel well implemented class A,AB, Digital ,and Vacuum Tube 
all have examples that are excellent . To date the Gryphon  integrated 
is the most musical integrated I have heard. Vitus  from Denmark another Great equally as good
hand built integrated, their top seperates are better stil  if youhave $40k and up 
I donot .  A McIntosh receiver is very respectable , Accuphase much better still.
we are speaking of High quality gear. Denon, onykyo is ok for a starter system 
Audiophile quality they are not.

I was in your spot debating my options. I went with a MAC6700 integrated receiver. I am totally satisfied. You can find them in the $5K range

B&W CM8 specs:
88dB spl (2.83V, 1m) which is like approximately 86 dB/1 W/1 Meter (quite low).
Impedance: 8Ω (minimum 3Ω) (the minimum does not look good).

Not sure how far you sit from the speakers if one assumes 9ft, you might need for the amp to be at-least putting out 96 Watts of clean watts to reach 85 dB + 15 dB (swings) all the way to 3 Ohm when needed
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

So an amp that probably does 200 Watts per channel so that THD is low at 100 Watts, typical of many amps, there are exceptions however.

I don't think there are many receivers that can go up-to 200 Watts per channel and also support impedance to 2 Ohm (at-least on spec).

Better go to with separates for 2 channel an HT bypass will come in handy. This will depend on how you source the music and the music from the videos.

check out emotiva

Guys, the OP has 5.1 setup that he uses for both surround sound movies and stereo music playbacks. He only has modest and mediocre B&W CM8 front speakers with a matching center speaker and the B&W CM5 standmount speakers for surrounds. He won’t need very expensive Gryphon Diablo integrated amp or some Vitus Audio or some other expensive electronics. They would be a waste unless if he’s willing to upgrade his speakers.

The Rotel RAP-1580 surround processor amplifier (AV receiver) will suffice it and will be a big step up performance wise or sonically from his Onkyo AV receiver.
I’m pretty sure this Rotel RAP-1580 will satisfy his needs and will pair well with his B&W speakers. Its performance for both stereo music and surround movie playbacks are very good especially coming from an AV receiver. The amplifier section is rock solid and this receiver is heavy weighs in around 54 lbs, unlike those Japanese big box mass produced AV receivers. However, the Rotel RAP-1580 is very barebone when it comes to features and bells & whistles.

Because a very good quality AV separates (av pre pro + multi-channel power amps) will cost him way more than this Rotel RAP-1580 av receiver plus multiple analog interconnects to connect between the two. Of course a good quality AV separates will be better than this Rotel RAP-1580 av receiver or any av receivers but he will need to spend quite a bit if he wants to get good quality AV pre pro and good quality multi-channel amps.

Or alternatively, he could get a good quality stereo integrated amp that has HT bypass and keep his Onkyo receiver for movies or surround duties if stereo is his first priority but it does not seem like he put priority on 2ch.

Even the Cambridge Audio CRX200 av receiver will sound very good on his speaker system. The Cambridge, along with Rotel NAD Arcam Audio Control, make quite musical sounding AV receivers and are quite a bit better than those mass produced Japanese AV receivers eg Denon, Onkyo/Integra, Marantz, Yamaha, Pioneer Elite & Sony.

Dear All,
Thank you all for your inputs and feedback. Much appreciated. I will explore the ideas (along with the budget) and see what is the best option. As one of you indicated, 2ch is not my priority as most of the music videos I listen as well are in 5.1.

I am based out of Atlanta and if anyone is up for a phone chat, please ping me.

Thanks

If this is for 2 channel listening, there are no high end av receivers, too much compromise toward av. I have had a few onkyo/Yamaha av receivers and the  onkyo’s Seemed to have a more warmer sound. 
You will do far better getting an integrated amp like the new yamaha’s for the cheap or go up to the hegel’s for better sound quality. You will still get the built in dacs plus a few other features but the sound quality will be much better for 2 channel

The OP just stated that 2 channel is not his priority and he's using his system for mostly surrounds.

If you like Onkyo for rest of the capabilities then just get a high powered low cost 5 channel amp that can do 2 ohm stable like ATI AT525NC. Small form factor , no heat, excellent measurements. You can spring for newer hypex models but they will be more expensive than ATI. 

For a great deal contact @apexstereo .

You can continue to upgrade AV when you see fit and the amp will keep your speakers adequately powered. Frees up your choice of AV in the future.

I can't afford really high-end expensive gear but that being said I have my "analog" system which consists of Emotiva separates which cost about the same as my Denon w/atmos and neural x for home theatre. About the only difference my aging ears can tell is that Emotiva separates seem to have better low end or more precisely go lower.

I've not found that inexpensive speakers mean that there isn't a benefit from better electronics. They seem to benefit quite a lot.
Regardless of what is being played- HT, music videos or 2 channel, my prior comments apply regardless. In a nutshell, **all** single-box audio systems are compromised in order to get everything in one box. The more the separate aspects of a HT system are broken out to separate components, the more **potential** exists for vast improvement.

Back in 1999, Stereophile, at a Stereophile Show in NYC, set up two Home Theater rooms side by side. The two rooms were identical (being in a hotel) and the video equipment was identical as well. One used a regular home theater receiver/processor, the other used separates. A poll that they took showed that 90% of people visiting both rooms thought that the room with the high end audio system had a better picture!

@jdub071 What speakers do you have? Your experience depends on the speakers. The op here has speakers that are quite a value for money and need good amount power to get them singing.

These days one can get excellent 2 or 3 channel amp with great measurements, one must consider their speaker before getting an amp however.

I have B&W 600 S3, 602 S2, 605 S2 and LCR6 S2's that I bought new about 17 years ago. These I run in my bedroom with a Denon AVR-X2400H receiver w/55 inch 4K Samsung TV. For my audio I have emotiva Bas-x 150 amp w/pt-100 preamp with either ELAC B6's or B&W 685 S2's w/polk 10 inch subwoofer. Terrencej said he was not looking at a huge budget so I guess all that is in the eye of the beholder or rather ears.

@jdub071 Denon AVR-X2400H is not even rated for 4 Ohm. As long as it works for you that is good. What levels do you listen to normally?.

to geek101I listen at moderate levels because of neighbors and the room is about 12 by 13 ft so I don't require a lot of power but the B&W's are pretty efficient around 90 dbs. and the Denon does have a four ohm rating but the B&W's are 8 ohm speakers anyway.

Hi All,

Thank you all for you continued inputs and contributions. Much appreciated. 

@atmasphere

I have no doubt that even modest speakers would benefit from high end electronics and cablings but some of the posters here earlier suggested the Gryphon Diablo integrated and some suggested Vitus Audio these are $20k+ worth of integrated amps and wouldn’t make any sense to pair them with the B&W CM8 unless if the OP is willing to upgrade his speakers. Besides the OP already stated that he wasn’t willing to pay a lot of money upgrading his electronics. He just needs something better than his Onkyo AV receiver.
And the Rotel RAP-1580 av receiver will be a big step up performance wise from what he has now.

Good qualittle AV separates will of course be better than AV receivers but will cost way more than AV receivers and if the OP doesn’t have budget constraint and yes indeed good quality AV separates will be perfect choice.
However, the Rotel RAP-1580 av receiver will most likely outperform entry level AV sepaeates. While the Rotel RAP-1580 isn’t exactly cheap at $3800 but its audio performance is very good and will sound really good on his B&W CM8 speaker system. I’ve heard this RAP-1580 paired with the new B&W 702 S2 speaker surround system as well as the B&W 804 D3 speaker surround system and I must say that this RAP-1580 beast drove the speakers with ease and sounded quite good especially coming from an AV receiver.

In regards to your comment that there’s always compromise in sound quality with integrated amps, I partially agree with you but really good design high end integrated amps are excellent sounding and there’s no compromise made.
But then of course when you compare them to their own stereo separate counterparts the separates will be better.

In my master bedroom setup I have the Dan D’Agostino Momentum stereo analog linestage integrated amp paired with the Wilson Audio Duette series 2 standmount speakers and they sounded excellent and outperforms many lower end stereo separates. And in my regular smaller sized bedroom I have the Naim Uniti Nova paired with the B&W 805 D3 standmount speakers and they sounded very good. Naim Uniti Nova is an all-in-one box solution streamer/DAC/integrated amp all in a single chassis. Very musical sounding unit for what it is.

However I do have very high end stereo separates (linestage preamp + monoblock amps) in my main reference two channel setup listening room.
I also have very high end AV separates in my dedicated home theater room.

@caphill I personally will not invest in a $4k receiver (i.e both AV processor and amp). And specially when there are no measurements for the amp section of the receiver. Why even bother. No one really know what they are getting. 

You are right it is pointless to consider $20k worth of electronics for B&W CM8. And I would venture and say considering one unit at $4k is also pointless.

One can get great amps for far less than $4k. And once you have a good amp one is free to upgrade AVR/Processor every few years. 

My Marantz SR7005 is not at all close to dedicated AMPs I have, even with really modest speakers i.e Paradigm Studio 40v3.

Unless there is space constraint or usability constraint an expensive AVR is just a giant waste of $$, buy an used last gen AVR for 30% of its cost if one must, IMHO. Good amps are keepers!. Pick a flavor tube class A / SS class A / AB / D/ G/ H and sticking with it, they are better value for the $$ over long term and quite a satisfying musical option.

I always like to get a mid level AVR that has analog pre-outs for plenty of channels, then add an separate power amp.  In the OP's case, that could be a 5-channel amp.  It will, however, cost some money for decent interconnects.  Like some others, I cannot see paying $4K for a high end AVR like that Rotel.  You can get a Denon AVR-X6400 for $1,500, and it has plenty of pre-outs.   Add an Emotiva A-5175 for $799, and you are up to $2,300.

Running a similar type setup.  Started upgrading a couple years ago to bring up the sound quality after a downsizing move created the need to compromise from a dedicated room which had 2 Bryston 4B SST amps and ML speakers.  I run a Denon x4300h in 7.1, Magnepan MMG, REL sub, NHT super 0 surrounds.  The Maggies needed more power so I built the Hypex NC400 amps.  Immediate improvement- dark, controlled, no heat in cabinet.  When I use HT mode all is great.  When I switch to vinyl (Rega P3 with Nag 110 cartridge and Parks Puffin pre), Spotify or CD's I put the receiver in pure direct mode and call it a day.  In my little world I couldn't be happier.  

I had an AVR but then went the separates route.  The overall sound is much better, but I don't need to rehash what others have said.  

I got a used 5 channel amp, and added it as an outboard amplifier.  The AVR has line level outputs, and I connected those to the amp.  The advantage of this type of setup is that you can use a cheaper AVR without much power, and you can use the separate amp to power  your speakers.  

Then, in my case, I later wanted to upgrade to support 4K video, and I was able to score a $1k Denon AVR on clearance for less than $600.  It has all the software support I could need for up to 9 channels, including Atmos.  And, I can use the built in amps for the Atmos speakers if I decide later to go that way.  

In your shoes, if your AVR has line output, then I would just get a separate amp.  If it does not, and doesn't meet your codec requirements, then you can get a nice amp for under $1k (I paid $600 for an older 150 wpc Adcom 5 channel amp), and a nice (lower power) AVR under $1k.  In the future, you can meet any software changes with a low cost AVR, and connect it to your nice power amp.  

This option is way better to me than upgrading to a $2k AVR because when you want to update the AVR, you also have to pay the cost of the amps... meaning another $2k investment.  

@caphill
+1

I like the suggestion of  soundermn. I will probably start by using my AVR pre-out and buy an Amp and then build it from there. 

I will check out some 5 channel or 7 channel amps. 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis969ff-b-k-components-reference-200-7-200-watt-x-7-powerhouse-mu...=

Any thoughts on the B&K Amp?

I don’t know about the B&K, but I’m sure others will. If you want new, the Monoprice Monolith 5 channel amp is $1300. It’s well reviewed... and I remember a very positive review by Sound and Vision a few months back where they really liked it. This weekend, they have a 20% sale for Veteran’s day. 200 watts by 5 channels... after the sale, $1039. Not bad.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=15593

Also, the B&K does look like a nice option as well.

@terrancej

If you only add a power amp and use your Onkyo receiver as a preamp processor/DAC you won’t be able to achieve optimal improvement in performance cause you’ll still be using your Onkyo receiver as preamp processor & DAC. Preamp processor & DAC plays very important role in determining the overall sound quality of your setup system. One must upgrade the front end components (DAC & preamp) first before upgrading the power amp, not the other way around. What’s lost earlier in the signal path cannot be restored downstream.

I know you’re on a budget and I can recommend a slightly used Marantz AV8802 av preamp processor (discontinued) which can be had today at slightly less than $2k used. its original retail price was $4k. This pre pro supports 4k video, hdcp 2.2, Dolby Atmos DTS-X & Auro 3D. This will be a step up sonically than using your Onkyo receiver’s preamp/processor section.
The AV8802 sounded very good for the money and I would say it is the best sounding Japanese mass produced pre pro. Noticeably better than Onkyo/Integra, Yamaha or Denon processors.

And pair this Marantz AV8802 processor with the Rotel RMB-1585 five-channel power amp and you will be set and will drastically elevate the overall performance of your system to a whole new level of sonic performance.
The Rotel RMB-1585 five-channel amp is a class AB design amplifier and it retails for $3k new but often times you can find a used one in used markets for around $2k ish. This is a spectacular sounding multi-channel amp especially for the money and will sound way better than the Emotiva, Outlaw, or B&K amps or any other amps mentioned earlier in the above posts.
However, do not get the Rotel class D amplifier such as the RMB-1575. it isn’t the same as its class AB design such as the RMB-1585.

Or alternatively for your B&W CM8 speaker system you can get the Rotel RMB-1555 five-channel amp, which is a step down from the RMB-1585. The RMB-1555 is also a class AB design. The RMB-1555 retails for around $2k ish brand new or it can be had for around $1300 used.

Rotel amps will sound really good on your B&W speakers. Rotel always pair really well with B&W. They are meant to be paired together. B&W speakers (especially the CM series & 600 series) were voiced using Rotel amplifications. They have great sonic synergy together.

Thanks for the inputs caphill

Any feedback regarding  Integra DHC-60.7 Preamp?

I strongly suggest you check out a Classe Sigma SSP Pre/Pro.  It was designed on B&W speakers when Classe was part of the B&W family.  Classe was shut down but I understand it is back up and running.   Balanced for L/R channels, single ended for rest to economize.  It partners great with a Classe Amp 5 (2 balanced or SE, 3 SE channels) for very good sound.  You should be able to get both for close to $5K used. You will likely want to upgrade your primary amp in the future but then you will have a really great 7.1 setup if you want.  There are a few of each of these currently available on Audiogon.  If you want to really round out the system, add an Aurender N100H!  Enjoy!  

@terrancej 

I wouldn't recommend the Integra DHC 60.7 processor. It wouldn't make a difference from the preamp processor section of your Onkyo receiver. 

The Classe Sigma SSP preamp processor and the Classe Sigma Amp5 five-channel amp that was recommended by psnyder149 above are great but they will cost around $6k used altogether in used markets. However, the Classe Sigma Amp5 is a class D amplifier, which is very good for HT but not so for music IMO. But the Classe Sigma SSP preamp processor is excellent and is optimized for stereo. It originally retails for $6k for the Sigma SSP Mk2 and $5k for the first early version of the Sigma SSP. 
The Classe Sigma Amp5 five-channel amp retails for $5k new. 
If you can afford this Classe Sigma combo it would be great and will be big step up sonically from your Onkyo AV receiver. 

In my opinion one cant compare an AV receiver to separate components.The detail with HQ separate components is in a class of its own.However there are some HQ av's.Problem is most have hdmi decoders with the audio logic control.
DD, DTS...I see many every month with blown hdmi, cant be repaired and no spares available a day after warranty expires...RIP A/V!Rather purchase an arxam/cambridge/rotel...and use HQ add on's.Separate components are easy to work on and most can be repaired for life.

As others have mentioned, upgrading the amp without upgrading the preamp will only get you so far, and upgrading to separates will be pretty expensive.  Given your investment in speakers, if it were me I'd upgrade to a higher level AVR so you upgrade both the amp and preamp in one shot.  Anthem makes relatively high quality AVRs, so I'd look for something like this if it has the features you're looking for.    

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis974j9-anthem-710-receiver-receivers

If you want to go further than that, I'd do a Marantz prepro with maybe Rotel or Classe multichannel amps, but it will cost a lot more and you'll need to add good interconnects.  FWIW, and best of luck. 

Yup....do not underestimate the important role of a preamp or pre pro. This is one element that is often times overlooked by many.

If you can swing around $5500 or so I would recommend the Classe Sigma SSP preamp processor, which is optimized for stereo, with the matching Classe Sigma Amp5 five channel amp. However, like I said before the Sigma Amp5 is a class D design amplifier which is good for surrounds (HT) but isn’t my preferred choice for music. But the Sigma SSP is an excellent sounding pre pro especially for stereo music playbacks. This combo can be had in used markets for around $5500 to $6k altogether both used plus analog interconnect cables to connect between the two. Do not skimp on cables.
Classe also makes class AB amps called the Delta series which are excellent for both music and HT but they are way more expensive than the Classe Sigma Amp5 or any Classe Sigma series amps (class D).

Or you can pair the Classe Sigma SSP pre pro with the Rotel RMB-1585 five channel amp, which is class AB design amplifier. Actually I have heard this combo before at someone’s house and they sounded very good together especially on B&W speakers. The Rotel RMB-1585 amp will pair really well with your B&W CM8 and they will sound great together.
The Rotel RMB-1585 retails for $3k new and sometimes you can find a used one for around $2k ish. It is a very good amplifier very refined sounding and very musical especially for the money. The Classe Sigma Amp5 (class D) is more suitable for surround movies or HT than the Rotel but the Rotel RMB-1585 is more inviting and engaging for music.

As always, appreciate the inputs and let me take this forward.