Amp more important than speakers?

If you check the closest mirror orifice10, the answer will be crystal clear.

LOL

When two people are rolling in the mud in the gutter; it's impossible to tell which one is the low life.

YEs, good job Stickman!

Speaker/room interactions and resulting sound are highly variable and not easy to predict until you try.

A room may also dictate a more powerful amp (or more efficient speakers) but that is a relationship that is more predictable and hence lower risk.

Always address your highest risk items first. That's a basic best practice of modern design that all good designers are familiar with.

Stickman451 nailed it. Good job.

Pay attention orifice10.

I agree, in the extreme amps are impacted by the size of the room and more obviously the speaker load/characteristics. You probably wouldn't go with a flea powered SET amp if your room was 25 x 35 for example, not unless of course your were using something like a KHorn which has a sensitivity of 104 db...even then, I would want more than a couple of watts...

My limited experience has been that very sensitive speakers seem to do best with lower or moderately powered amps, whether tube or SS. Tougher loads, like a Magnepan panel speaker are much happier with as much power as you can throw at them; think 500 watt SS or BIG tube amps..

I stand by my earlier points in this thread. To me it makes little sense to choose an amp first; ultimately the choice of speaker has the greatest impact on the overall tonality of the music, the type and condition of the sound stage, and the overall response you get in a particular room.

Find a speaker you like/love and then do some hunting until you can find the very best amp that matches well with the speaker (and its particular design characteristics) and one that is powerful enough to drive the speaker to acceptable sound pressure levels in your room.

Stickman, for the most part I agree with you, but the size of a room can have a bearing on amplifier choices.

Another reason you should do speakers first is the fact that every speaker you purchase will be affected by the room you place them in; that's a fact! Most amps that I know of are not really impacted by the room dimensions or even the wall surfaces...

If your speaker does not integrate properly into the room, NO upstream electronics will correct the problems.

Listen to a wide variety of different types of speakers, horn loaded, panel, traditional box, sealed enclosure, ported enclosure, two-way monitors, ribbons, metal dome tweeter, silk domed, etc...find one that you enjoy and one that most meets the criteria that are important to you and buy it. Also confirm that it integrates appropriately with your room; if your room is 10 x 12 do not buy a set of KHorns, or a set of Wilson Alexandria 2's, or a set of Magnepan 20.1's....none of these speakers will work properly in a small room!

As time passes and you improve/upgrade your front-end electronics, your speakers will continually reward you with better sound and performance (assuming of course that you made an appropriate speaker choice!)

Blindjim, don't you see the inverse of your argument?

Why do you think it is called an audio "system"?

Look up the definition of a system.

How you get there does not matter as much as the end results, though there are still happy paths and not so happy paths.

A little experience and knowledge certainly helps also.

What in the blue hell more is there to say about this topic?

Fusion10

going speakers first, might lock a person into a particular camp and I see that as a sort of drawback.

if you grab a pr of panels because of how they image perhaps, then decide you want to try out an 8 watt 300b amp, it's speaker selling time!

Around here one can and will hear a lot of pros and cons for this or that approach to building a system.

some often contend speakers make the biggest impact on the sound of a stereo, versus some other item being replaced in that system.

IMHO, the jury is still out on that idea.

Exchange out your SS amp for a single triode amp... tell me that did not have a significant effect on the sound.

Replace your aV reciever you are using as a preamp with a $10K line stage tube preamp and then tell me it was a Ho hum exchange.

El toro mietae!

of course, if a system is not highly resolving, it matters very little what alterations are made, as they likely won't be detected.

You are as welcome to your opinion as are we all. Waht I posted is more or less what my exp has shown or proven outright to me. Repeatedly.

I think my first few sentences in my last post said
EVERYTHING MATTERS… ok.. There it is again.

A certain setup is exactly that … a certain, particular, unique setup. As much as you might try to duplicate a given configuration, it’s about impossible to do so, though you may come close, it won’t be a clone.

I also found out better front ends provide better results… even with more modest speakers. Period. Believe that or not, I don’t care. Big beautiful expensive speakers first devotees are simply in a pissing contest… showing off to some degree IMO. Especially IF they feel that investment alone or even predominately is going to give them a killer outfit without commensurate funds being injected upstream.

Ego… plays a fairly large part in this past time too… do remember that.

Speakers are what everyone sees… and many think… are the stereo itself! They are if nothing else, the icons of our hobby. They are the art. The majesty. The idols. The Venus de Milo’s of our arrangements. They are the signature of a system.

…but they aren’t predominately where the real majic is born. They just convey it to us. Hopefully with as little signature of their own as is possible.

Trust me, If I could afford a pr of Alexandrias, andrea IIis, Evidence, Stratovari, etc… I’d have ‘em!

‘Course, if I could afford the likes of them, my front end would be as well appointed.

I can’t.

I’m guessing who ever posted this thread is on the fence about which way to go, and has a fineite amount of bucks on hand to devote to the hobby and is wondering which way to jump.

I’ve been very very happy with the results of going from source to speakers in constructing a variety of stereo or AV rigs. Naturally, none are or were ever finished as quickly as they were begun. All received ongoing attention, updates, and upgrades as was my ability to do so. In that context, no system I’ve had or own now has ever been finished… all remain in a state of flux. Awaiting an injection of some new this or that… or some replacement.

Speakers are no different. Not in my world anyhow.

Although in different rooms, I’ve heard the same set of speakers fueled by differing front ends… naturally each sounded differently. Which one sounded best? That’s a subjective call I think.

And that is likely our bottom line… this rhetoric at best is purely subjective. There is no preappointed judge. No jury. No coromated king of sound that says “a stereo must sound like….”. Nope. None, but us.

It’s our call. Our money, and our mania. I’ve simply found a way that works for me that does not require me to invest a second mortgage or hock my first born for a pr of speakers.

In the final analysis, so long as each area of the system is addressed appropriately, or as best one can, the results should be just fine. If not, something was overlooked somewhere, or there is some mismatch in the outfit.

All roads lead to Culver city. How we get there is up to us… I’ve gotten there on my thumb, by car, plane, and bus. Now, I might just try by horseback, as this thread is once again, beating one to death as have so many before it.

It really doesn’t matter which end gets the most attention first, so long as all of them get attended to with the same level of devotion, or as one is able.

Jafox, why not keep the ARC and throw away the speakers?

Because the many ARC amps out there with their wimpy power supplies and output transformers might not be suitable with the speakers, e.g., SoundLab, Magnepan, Apogee, MBL, that I might ultimately decide for my system.

Jafox, why not keep the ARC and throw away the speakers?

Want to comment on Blindjim's post. I don't necessarily disagree with your front-end-is-most-important position, though I think I'd side with many here who suggest it's about all the pieces and how they sound together.

You suggest speakers don't factor into sound quality as much as they do bandwidth. That sound quality relies on the signal path. I would argue that better build quality in a more expensive speaker will lead to a better sounding speaker, as things such as resonances are dealt with. More expensive drivers will outperform cheaper ones, allowing the use of less intrusive crossovers. And on and on it goes...

To say that speakers do not manufacture a sound, they just allow it. And that they will exude what they receive and not change it. Personally I agree that the incoming signal must be of high quality, but speakers simply do have their own colorations. Get a high quality front end and play them through two different sets of speakers - the sound will almost surely change.

If the VR4 was simply an open window to what came before it in the chain, then surely it would not require the specific front end you heard that day in that second room. Instead, any well made front end should sound great with those speakers (assuming adequate specification matching). I think it must have been something with that front end and those speakers together that caught your ear. And who knows...probably the cabling and the room too. Just my two pennies.

Back when I practically lived in "high end emporiums", we were "grooving mightily" to all ARC electronics and top of the line Thiel speakers, when someone came in who wanted to audition a Rotel amp. After the Rotel amp was inserted, with ARC pre and Thiel still in the lineup; the soundstage collapsed.

Hardly surprised. But if you kept the ARC components and swapped in a pair of Radio Shack speakers, the soundstage too would have collapsed. So this proves nothing other than a fool implementing an audio system for either instance.

The happy/MOST EFFICIENT path to the best results is room 1st, speakers second, amp third and then the rest.

Other orders can work well also as long as the end results are in synch, but will likely take more time and expense to optimize and results may not be as good.

GEE- You mean all amps DON'T perform alike? I'm shocked! Comparing Rotel and ARC? PLEASE!

Orpheus10, very astute posts!

Back when I practically lived in "high end emporiums", we were "grooving mightily" to all ARC electronics and top of the line Thiel speakers, when someone came in who wanted to audition a Rotel amp. After the Rotel amp was inserted, with ARC pre and Thiel still in the lineup; the soundstage collapsed.

Get real, how could anyone expect any thing less from a loudspeaker manufacture. Should Rgs92 believe Wilson or his own eyes?

Rodman9999,
This should come as no surprise for anybody that knows how to build a system.

It's simply common sense and nothing more.

Read the sixth paragraph of this review(and following). The expensive components displayed, and supposedly connected, were Krell. The amp actually driving the speakers; a $650.00 parasound(and an iPod). (http://www.cherubini.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=yagendoo_VaMazing_1.tpl&product_id=2443&category_id=103&keyword=wilson&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=954&lang=it)

Regardless what's said here, your experiments told you what you need to know. A boss amp will sound good, even with midfi speakers, while a midfi amp will sound like a midfi amp; even with the best speakers.

If the question is what to shop for first, I would have to say the speakers, with the consideration to the room. Once the speaker has been selected, shop for an amp to properly drive it. Of course, it can be, and is, more complex than that, but that has been my experience.

Good signal anywhere ==> Garbage component any where ==> Garbage out

I am another who feels that it is all about the room and thus what speakers will match with it. What walls are available, corners, odd room shapes, furnishings, etc. will dictate what speakers are possible. And then the buyer has to choose which priorities are highest for the final speaker.

Finding a matching amp is really not all that difficult as there are so many great amps out there to handle high or low efficiency speakers, or those that require high current output, etc. Sadly, the same can not be said for preamps...only a handful have cut it for me in 30 years.

Garbage out = garbage out.

Speakers and amps are not a chicken and egg thing. They have to work together.

http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html

If the two do not work together no amount of cash will fix it.

Audiiofeil,

"Without speakers that satisfy a listener, the right amp is a moot point."
You said in one sentence what I took several paragraphs to write.

Good listening,
Larry

>>06-27-11: Tmsorosk
Without the right amp your system will never reach it's potential<<

Without speakers that satisfy a listener, the right amp is a moot point.

As many have already stated all components in an audio system matter. But specifically regarding power amp vs speaker, I `d rather have a great amp upstream of a good speaker than a great speaker downstream from a good amp. The speaker can`t improve the signal passed to it. The better the speaker, the more it exposes what preceeds it, i.e. garbage in-garbage out.

Without the right amp your system will never reach it's potential .

The Synergy between your ROOM and your speakers is the MOST important. Synergy between your amp and your speakers would be next. It's all about "Synergy"

As I recall, a great man once said: “Ask not what your speakers can do for you, but what you can do for your speakers!”

that was very inspiring, don't you think?

If the notion that all we needed were great speakers, was true… we’d all have $15K - $30K speakers being run by iPods and this past time would cease to exist.

The next sound you hear should not be the speakers. Not if they are great speakers, that is.

We don’t call these audio arrangements ‘SYSTEMS’ for no good reason.

Everything matters! Everything. Fit the speakers to the room, the amp to the preamp and the speakers, and youself, and you should be good to go.

I happen have an Onkyo amp… non digital, old school discrete. 140wpc or so they say. TX SR 805. An old school sony receiver too, and have a couple amps still around here, though more in recent history stopped by for a time.

Several pr of speakers still hang their hats here ranging from a few hundred to well into the thousands.

Guess what?

The best speakers IMO I own sound best with the best gear I own. Hands down, No questions. End of story. SO DO THE CHEAPEST SQUEAKERS I OWN SOUND BEST WITH MY BEST GEAR. Finis.

The diffs from my least expensive speakers, with my most modest kit, and the best speakers in house is minimal. Noticeable, but at best a marginal diff in Sound Q.

Quantifying it is tuff… from memory only I can say perhaps a third better sounding? Give or take a wee bit. At best.

That’s going from my $400 two way cantons, to my Silverline Sonata IIIs that retailed for well over 6K more money!.

Is there more bandwidth being revealed by the Sonata IIIs than the two way Cantons? Sure. But the SQ relies on the signal path. The bandwidth displayed is the territory of the speakers.

Reproducing more of the bandwidth is another tale completely.

Actually I could very easily deal with having lesser quality speakers than I can with having lesser quality signal transmission line.

Very easily I could live with my standby former Flagship Phase Tech tower and my better electronics than I would want to live with merely my Sonata IIIs and my Onkyo Receiver.

No doubt though, speakers are the big deal. Large man symbols out on display. One can’t but notice them! Get something cool! Fancy. Sharp looking. Big. Expensive speakers make great sounds!

Maybe. Maybe not.

They sure as Heck make a big splash on several levels though. I do admit that.

However, I feel very strongly about the philosophy of building a system from front to back, rather than back to front. Source first vs. speakers first.

Naturally you can go about it either way… and you will too. Regardless what is pointed out here by other peoples exp in their various system builds.

Speakers will make the biggest alteration to your system than any other piece normally.

Tha’ts the added advantage to building from front to back, by the time your ready to drop in some fancy and costly speakers, they’ll be entering into a rig that is already hot to go and balanced electrically & electronically speaking.

…and you will definitely know how honest the speakers are as you will have been auditioning various constructs all along the way. You’ll also become quite familiar with just where those invisible borders of diminishing returns dwell.

In that philosophy too, you might well find out you don’t have to hock your middle child for more speakerage.

I went to audition a pr of VSA VR4 Gen III. $6.5K $7.0K speakers. Took my amp along. A Krell KAV 250. Dedicated room… treated room… yada yada. Nice front end by Shan Lin, and Electrocompaniet preamp. All Audience wiring and Chang conditioning. Spent almost two hours listening to this and that. Felt quite unimpressed throughout the whole of that session… so I decided to leave and no longer consider those VSA Gen III speakers as candidates.

Saying good bye to the dealer and adding I’ll need to look elsewhere for other units, he bade me check out one more room first. I did.

In that room was an all Thor power train with the top tier Shan lin SACD CD player. Audience wires as before and Chang cond as in the other room. Now the outfit was 30 wpc vs 250 wpc and tubes vs. SS. The speakers again were VSA. VR4 JRs. Virtually half the cost of those just heard.

Listening to the exact same CD (s) as I had been previewing in the room next door, the first few notes I heard after receiving the remote control simply put, blew me away. Never in my life had I heard such incredible sound. Glorious. Astonishingly natural and organic. Decent bass too, though some improvement there was needed. Otherwise, 85 - 90% of the sound I was seeking lay right there in front of me!

So I bought those speakers.

Big mistake.

See, I was buying a sound.. a lie actually. Not speakers. It wasn’t the speakers that were manufacturing that sound.

They merely allowed it.

I shudder to think as I reflect on all of that How great could have that Thor outfit sounded with still better speakers?

For the next two years or so I tried to emulate, duplicate, recapture as much as possible of that Thor tube sound using those JR speakers. To no avail.

Similar products though not the exact same were brought in to reproduce the system I had heard. No dice. Nada.

Only that front end could make that sound. Not the spakers. In fact, those speakers needed that sort of front end to sound that good. With lesser gear, they sounded well, let’s say just not so good and leave it at that.

I dare say this is as pertinent as it would be with SS power trains too. Krell has a decidedly different sound than does Levinson, and McIntosh SS has a different sound than does Sony, etc.

I sifted my way thru a heap of cables, inordinate numbers of speaker placements to the point my floor was becoming Swiss Cheese… Lorraine, I think… or perhaps jarlsberg. Differing amps, preamps, even a couple different sources on the same economic levels as what was originally previewed that distant day, flew in, nested and then migrated off into the wilds. Zip. Sorry. I ultimately came close but no dice.

Later on, by acquiring a Thor line stage pre amp and added it into that mix with a BAT vk500 w/BAT pk, and felt then that was the best I could afford to do with that pr of speakers, and that was enough too. I had had it by then.

With respect to all the VSA owners, I was done trying to get great sound out of those JRs. They aren’t for me at all. Check please. I’m finished. Next!

It is indeed what is up[ front that counts. If the quality of the signal is not inherently true prior to it’s explosion from the speakers, it sure as Hell won’t regain or become infused with more Truth & love juice as it emerges from the transducers.

It matters not how good the speakers are…. Within reason. They will only exude what they receive… they won’t recan it or revitalize it. Purify it more, add to it or requalify it again… well, not if they are pretty good speakers.

Ain’t great speakers supposed to be neutral & transparent?

I’m pretty sure that’s why they call it a system. It takes EVERyTHING in it to generate an engaging audio event.

In my case the speakers I heard producing the sound that intoxicated me so magically that day were only a tad more than half the price of the ones I went there to hear!

But the front end of both rigs were quite different. Pricewise and topology too. the Thor outfit ran into $20K all by itself. The Electrocompainet and Krell added up to about $6 - $7K. total, give or take a few denaro.

The speakers too, to be fair here were different sorts… one wearing a negligee as a modest covering, the second, adorned by veneers and woods.

Irrespective of the two setups, night and day diffs were instantly noticeable. Blatantly. They continue to be too…. if the front end is up to the task.

Such remains my own experience.

I feel too some of the biggest considerations are matching of each item along the signal pathway. Though some call it synergy. Impedance matching all thru the system is mandatory for a great sounding arrangement. It is as important as with the upstream component as it is in the relationship between the amp and the speakers.

The amp has to satisfy two task masters. The source or preamp feeding the signal to it, and the speakers it must control and feed thereafter.

Miss on the upstream imp mataching, and the downstream output is going to be way less than good… or just good at it’s best.

Despite where you begin until you have the system on a par throughout itself, balanced electrically with respect to impedance, from it’s source (s) to it’s loud speakers, you’ll not be receiving it’s best effort… and I’ll say no matter how much $$$ youlaid out for those fancy squeakers ya got.

If you want good to great sound quickly, then go the front to back route. If you can deal with decent sound until your power train, and source are up to speed, then going off for a pr of high end squeakers is the likely way for you… that is of course unless your significant other is in the remodeling mood frequently…. If so, then speakers are normally the first things to be examined as something to change.

Lastly, if you have the duckets to drop as considerably on the power train as you are or can on speakers, all bets are off… and then it’s merely matching things up as to their needs and your preffs.

Like the old cigarette commercial said, “it’s what’s up front that counts!”

Hearing speakers which are capable of sounding great very much depends on what is making them sound great… and never will it be the other way around!

I learned that voicing the speaker to the room and then getting an amp that played nice with the speakers was the way to go for me.

As an aside, at two recent CA audio shows I visited the Tonian Labs room. The speakers demoed were in the $5k range, the associated integrated amp and source combined were less than $500. There must be something to this speaker thing because at both shows that room was in my top 5.

Two truths...you can't do without a good pair of speakers, and you can't do without a good amp...HOWEVER...
In my experience, I could always have better, (not the best of course) sound with great speakers, compromising on the amplification.
I've told the story a million times--but...

Back in 1989, I'd purposely match the THIEL CS5's with the Adcom 535, a sixty (60WPC) watt amp, just to make people aware of how important speakers are in the audio equation.
Were they as good as they could be, of course not.
On the other hand, there was no way that I could have teamed a $13,000 amp with any $300 pair of speakers and come up with anything comparable...its simply not possible.
As basic as this may seem it makes sense as to the overall pecking order IMHO.
Of course, the best of both is the best...but if one has to make a compromise in the short term make it on electronics. SHORT TERM...save for the best to go with your great speakers, then you'll have the magic.

Good listening,
Larry

I would say that unless one must use low power SET amp, speakers first. However, eventually yes if you want to bring the most out of your speakers the amp together with pre-amp will cost more than the speakers, perhaps much more; double the price is quite realistic and I think reasonable.

A speaker is merely the end of the chain. In the past I had speakers, then looked for an amp. Now I bought the amp first and am auditioning speakers to mate with it. Both approaches can work if you are patient enough. Trust your ears...jallen

Well executed active speakers the way to go. They have the potential to sound better than their passive counterparts and make the amp vs. speaker question moot.

I agree with Mofimadness and Elizabeth - once again, if you don't like the sound of your speakers, you won't like the sound of your system. It really is that simple, folks. This is of course not to say that the rest is unimportant, the amp must be matched to the speakers for sure, but merely to say that nothing is as important as the speakers.

In 40 years in audio I've owned at least a hunded pairs of speakers and probaly almost as many amps.
My present Silverline Preludes sound great with my $500 Sophia Baby Electric but fabulous with mt sons 10K Lamm.
Amp first.
Actually preamp first but you didn't ask that.

Yep, the combinations are endless. Crap in, crap out.

The best amp choice advice I ever read came in the owners manual with a pair of new KEF Q-90's. Here's a blurb from the current recommended amp FAQ from KEF's website: As a general rule buy the most powerful amplifier that you can afford within the specified range and use it with great care.

Once you accept that idea, all other amps are by definition misfits.

You know what they say in baseball: Great pitching will always beat great hitting, and vice-versa!

The right $1K amp (e.g., Odyssey Khartago) could sound fabulous powering Wilson Sasha WPs, but then so could Cary tube monoblocks powering some Paradigm mini-monitors.

Every time I think I find a good rule of thumb, there's always something else to discredit it. Right now I'm enjoying the sounds of a 1981 Heathkit AA-1600 amp (bought today for $219) powering a $2500 pair of Mirages. HOWEVER, this Heathkit is not your ordinary $200 amp. It performs at least like a $2K power amp, maybe more. Definitely a notch or more above a new Adcom.

Elizabeth, the 50% rule applied in an age when we bought speaker cable at the hardware store and used cheap RCA interconnects that came with the gear.
I look for speakers first to "voice" my room and I agree that you can get better results with a great speaker and budget amp rather than a great amp and budget speaker, there are limits to this thinking though.
In my system, Focal 1037 speakers mate well with a Krell 2250 amp. If I upgeaded the amp to higher end monoblocks the sound of the speakers would not change that much, but if I upgraded the speakers with my same amp, I'd say there would be more of an improvement.
You should budget your system to get the most out of it, I'm not big on amps but pay more attention to the front end and cabling.

Mike

Weseixas, I agree, I think some of the Onkyo amps/receivers sound quite good, which is what prompted me to put it in the system in the first place and now I'm glad I did.

I also want to say that my slant is that the loudspeaker should be matched to the room first and then the proper amp to drive that speaker in its intended acoustic environment can be sought (based on the speaker load, sensitivity, and how loud the owner wants to play his/her music in the particular room).

I agree with Jaybo, but I might put budget first.

I have also noticed people starting out getting their first half decent system always believe the speakers are all important and where all the money should be spent. I started that way. Friends who listen to my rig often say 'we need some decent speakers too'. I am now in the camp that the amp is most crucial and the heart of the system. The amp is my "priority amongst essentials"..... err ... as long as you combine it with a great source and great speakers :)

Plato,

Onkyo as a brand is highly underrated , they are not bad at all, so i'm not suprised..

regards,

a great speaker with a budget amp will give better results than a great amp with budget speaker ....

regards,

Elizabeth, you're probably going to laugh at this, but it's true.

A while back I bought a used pair of Maggie SMGa series II speakers for use in my smaller room (I had 1.6's in there previously but they overpowered the room in the treble).

I was not having great luck with amplification. For a while I used a Parasound P/LD-2000 line preamp into a VTL ST-85 amp and it sounded ok but not great. The ST-85 actually sounded quite good in triode mode but lacked power.

I tried the W4S ST-250 but that was not a great match. Then for a while I used a VTL TL-2.5 line preamp with a Quicksilver GLA 40-watt tube amp. I liked this combo quite a bit but again, ultimately it was somewhat laid back and lacked power.

The other day, just for laughs I took an Onkyo TX-SR705 surround receiver (over 100 wpc and WRAT analog amps that could be set for 4 Ohms). At first I didn't like the presentation, but as I fine tuned it and tried its Pure Audio and CD-Direct modes things began looking up. Next I put a ferrite bead on the power cord and put a weight on the metal cover to damp vibration.

I kid you not, it came to life and is sounding pretty outstanding. It throws a coherent "wall of sound" that to me is reminiscent of listening to Maggie Tympani 1D's with Audio Research electronics back in the day.

Mind you I'm not saying the VTL/Onkyo combo can't be beat, but I am saying it's a lot of fun and probably the best sounding (or most synergistic) amplification chain I've used with the little Maggies in this room so far. So I guess I'm going backwards in order to move forward.