Advice on....Snake Oil

Some suffers from the Messiah complex...

It is not always a big damage inflicted on humanity when someone want to save humanity against its will at all costs...

But not always, imagine one of this little messiah with power and money....Imagine the scale and the level at which his obsession will grow ....You dont have to go very far to see what i means and discover some example of that in the news today...

Here the little messiah are  the "enlightened" one by their homemade version of science also...On the big stage of the world the same drama play....

Pathetic.... Ridiculous.... But finally boring.....Boring in an audio thread for sure....Not boring in the news for sure...

BTW As usual with most snake oil threads I can see this thread getting either removed or sent to the garbage forum.

Which is something you excel at, boasted about, and continue to do.

Wow - massive profits!

Yes massive. can't see that? And what/who are you protecting, in an incognito way?

See the forest for the trees and wake up, this industry is rife with snake oil.!!

I think my analogy held up as good as comparing an LP cutting lathe to an amp.

You might think so, but in reality it does not. Its obvious that a lathe will need to be vibration free. It should also be obvious that a vacuum tube needs to be vibration free as well. Two things in audio that need to be vibration free. Your analogy really tried to make it something other.


Snake oil is not going to be measurable- and the effect of removing vibration from audio gear that is sensitive to vibration will be. However just to be clear, I've tried to point out to people many times that wire and fuses are not directional- I'm sure you would not be surprised at all at how much guff you have to take for such a simple obvious thing. I'm with you on most of this stuff; my participation here was simply to point out that vibration control isn't snake oil. I like to be able to prove things with measurements; the trick is solving how to do it. 

People are funny , vouching for the defense of the gullibles...And the stakes for the snake oilers....

Like if gullibility was on one side of the coin and never on the other....Like if audio problems were simple like their simple mind....

:)

georgehifi

Snake Oil products are designed for the gullible by companies that have no moral conscience. And are making a massive profit from them.

Wow - massive profits! Why don’t you sue a few of ’em for fraud? Get class action status and rake in a bundle of dough! Plus - consider how many of the gullible and misinformed you’ll be saving at the same time. It would be a truly humanitarian gesture, no?

If people think there is too little tolerance of suspected snake oil here on this site,  try talking about 3 figure fuses and 5 digit wires anywhere else where at best people will just look at you like you are nuts. 

BTW  As usual with most snake oil threads
I can see this thread getting either removed or sent to the garbage forum.

Cheers George

Is there a difference between cutting LPs and consumer amplifiers as far as vibration and leveling? I think you're comparing apples to sardines.

Totally agree, 

There is of course a difference but your analogy does not hold up.

Of course it does


And comparing vibration damping feet to directional AC >$150 fuses, HFT, and Shun Mook pucks wooden pucks etc etc IS!!! as djone51 put it "comparing apples to sardines".
Don't worry djones, he is just hedging his bets as usual, he sells some of his stuff to the shillers of this snake oil. I wonder about his morals sometimes. 

  Snake Oil products are designed for the gullible by companies that have no moral conscience. And are making a massive profit from them. 

snark, informal. : an attitude or expression of mocking irreverence and sarcasm …

It takes all kinds to tango.  
We’re it me though I would avoid grand generalizations where everyone is seen as the same.    Nothing could be further from reality. 

In the absence of agreed upon measurable criteria, the value of an item becomes subjective to the emotions elicited in the buyer.  IME, most audio equipment manufacturers believe in their product lines.   A $300 fuse may be "snake oil" to some while to others it may be the final touch to achieving great sound in their home.  

Your last paragraph seems to assume "a lot of brands" have purposely chosen to avoid "developing and creating an impact" and instead have chosen to make "a questionable product."  I am curious what you consider "a questionable product" and why you believe those brands would be "better" if they adopted a more altruistic goal of "creating an impact."

Yes, I believe you are off base.  IME, most audio equipment manufacturers are simply trying to stay afloat in a business they are passionate about.

People are just plain jealous of others systems and have adopted an audio communist argument against anything that can be seen as better than what someone else has.

They feel no one should spend more than they or hear any better as well and if they do, then it must be measured and quantified or that person is crazy, delusional and must be decried and set straight. Gulag for you my friend.

They want a level playing field so they can get that participation medal just for showing up. They travel in packs (strength in numbers) and invade audio sites stirring things up with their communist points of view, out to save the audio society from itself. 

I've never seen this level of zealotry in other sites for automobiles, bikes, cameras, watches, etc. Sure, there are differences and debates, but the level of acrimony simply doesn't exist at the levels exhibited here. 

That's not to say there aren't charlatans out there but these audio communists see them everywhere. That's what they do.

All the best,
Nonoise

I think my analogy held up as good as comparing an LP cutting lathe to an amp. Difference between tube and SS I can see the relationship and relevance the other still seems like apples and sardines. 

Miller, could be a self image issue. They don’t trust themselves. They don’t trust their own ears. Maybe they think if they try to speak “ audiophile” speak, that they will be transparent and ridiculed for their lack of knowledge. Not that anyone doing that serves much sympathy either, that only drives people away. I play an online game for nine years now, the team I started is and has always been the top team in the world. But when I started I was scared to even converse with anyone. I figured it would be teens speaking their own language, that they would see right through  this old fart, lol. Turns out it was more old farts than kids anyways, and that helped me get over my fears of being called out in these convos. Maybe djones is just insecure and shy, and needs some love and understanding to help him through this phase? Hehe

Is there a difference between cutting LPs and consumer amplifiers as far as vibration and leveling? I think you're comparing apples to sardines.

@djones51
There is of course a difference but your analogy does not hold up. Amplifiers respond differently to 'feet' and by this I mean vibration transfer or damping devices such as points or sorbathane feet. If the amplifier is solid state it likely will respond less; if tube the difference will likely be easily both measurable and audible due to the difference in microphonics produced. When you can both hear it and measure it, its real.

Mr Jones, atmapheres post is 100 percent relevant. It’s obvious anything that doesn’t help your cause, isn’t relevant, as per you, lol. That dosnt mean much it seems. We all know you’re anti any improvements, cables, or others. If we extrapolate using you’re logic, then there are also no differences in audio equipment, their efforts to shield their products, to damp vibrations, Upgraded internal wiring,  are senseless. a capacitor of a a certain rating is the same as any other. But, we all know this isn’t true either. Funny how some of you get to decide when and what products they do and do not matter with.

thyname-

Why are the Snake Oil Screechers so loud?

Nobody knows for sure but I have a theory. To be an audiophile is to have mastered a large and highly complex skill set. It requires at a minimum a basic grounding in acoustics, psycho-acoustics, electricity and electronics. This is all on top of the absolutely essential skill set of being a good listener. Being able to recognize, evaluate, and talk about what you’re hearing and to be able to do that down to the subtlest, finest degree. Finally, the cherry on top of this great big cake is the only reason its really worth doing at all is a love of music.

Well now, that’s a pretty tall order. Nobody ever really gonna get there. Being otherwise normal people some are gonna love music a lot more than physics. Some are gonna love electronics and measuring more than listening. Some are gonna just latch onto it for who knows what reason. To get girls. To live the dream of the glossy ad. Who knows?

Doesn’t matter. What matters is we all know this is true. Know it in our bones.

Well now this being the case, imagine you really want to be an audiophile, but its too hard. You can’t hear. Its too much mental effort. It costs too much. You’re too lazy to try. Whatever. Could be a lot of reasons. Doesn’t matter. Point is, its frustrating. Then you look around, see a bunch of dudes effortlessly doing it. Well, its just too much. You just can’t take it any more. You have failed, and its just not fair. On top of everything else your vocabulary is as limited as your intellect. All you can do is scream at the world: "Snake oil."

cleeds3,166 posts08-11-2020 2:49pmdjones51

If you're asking why I haven't it's because my wife is an attorney who explained to me why it would be a waste of time ...

So it would be a waste of time to file a fraud complaint with your state consumer protection agency, but it's worth your time to repeat the same claims here over and over and over again? Right.

Touche!! this guy is the biggest of Snake Oil Screechers in all Agon threads, and who knows, in many other audio forums. Question is why?

I had my wife much to her annoyance read through a few cable sites. Never found one where there was a snowball’s chance to even bother the consumer protection agency to much vagueness in their claims. So yeah I did spend a little time looking into it but as I said she told me to forget it. 

Dont let the so called Snake oil pro-hunters, hide from you the truth:

Any ready made " generic" electronic designed component, need to be rightfully embed in a "specific" triple dimensions in your house and audio system: mechanically,electrically and acoustically...

No audio component being " generic" created in ideal conditions is ready out of the box to gives his optimum working without being protected by resonance and vibrations controls, without being treated against a too high noise floor in your electrical grid and mostly without being located in an acoustically treated room, with passive materials and active devices.


Is it not simple to understand?

By the way i was doing all that with homemade low cost materials and device, NO branded costly tweaks for me...

No tweaks solve this triple embeddings problems anyway.... NOT ONE....

And a bunch of tweaks is not a METHOD to embed your particular audio system  in your particular house....A method begins with systematic listening experiments....

Ok i apologize but newcomers need to know this basic fact....

Yeah that's right, my time here doesn't cost me anything.  I guess I could file one first I would need to find a manufacturer who claims their product always works and no refunds. You know one? I'll buy a product from them and file a complaint. 

djones51

If you're asking why I haven't it's because my wife is an attorney who explained to me why it would be a waste of time ...

So it would be a waste of time to file a fraud complaint with your state consumer protection agency, but it's worth your time to repeat the same claims here over and over and over again? Right.

You'll find forums and comments on websites, reviews and fanboys claim miraculous  results  but you'll not find any declarative statements that tweak "x " or cable "y" improves the sound in every instance made by a manufacturer of said tweaks or cables. There's a lot of vagueness and personal experience by consumers of these things in the comment section. I mean why would they claim their product is miraculous for everyone, you think they want to be sued? 

Why would they be frightened by something as simple as filing a complaint with a consumer protection agency? Every state has one.

If you're asking why I haven't it's because my wife is an attorney who explained to me why it would be a waste of time.  I explained it above but you choose to ignore it.

but as long as they stay away from making definitive statements of guaranteed success then they have CTA.

It's very hard to prove if it was easy as I said noone would need to wade through the homeopath meds in the drug store. Some of them have been sued and the homeopath drug makers win. Does that mean they work? It means it's almost impossible to prove intent which is required in civil lawsuits of fraudulent practices. 

Unrelated question: why are the Snake Oil Screechers so loud?

djones51

Lawsuits against the type of deceptive practices employed by by some of these marketers isn’t worth the time or effort.

Apparently it isn’t worth the time or effort on the part of those making the claims of fraud, yet they have plenty of time to repeat the fraud charges here ad infinitum. If the fraud were as blatant and dangerous as some suggest, it’s hard to accept that no one has ever even filed a complaint. Why would they be frightened by something as simple as filing a complaint with a consumer protection agency? Every state has one.

... claiming since noone has sued them they must therefore work is fallacy.

I don’t think anyone here has claimed that.

And that's why I consider those who claim fraud and snake oil lazy and insincere. It's easy to make anonymous accusations here on the Internet. It's another to file a complaint and sign your name to it.

I agree that some amplifer, speakers, TT, DAC  etc..manufacturers might exaggerate a tad on measurements and perhaps innocently I only see the crazy snake oily type thing in tweaks. From magic magnetic mats for your breaker box to rocks taped on wires. As for cables it's each person for themselves if they want to believe an competent designed ethernet cable for a few dollars a foot can't transmit data as well as $100 a foot cable no skin off my nose. 

Is there a difference between cutting LPs and consumer amplifiers as far as vibration and leveling? I think you're comparing apples to sardines. 

Snakeoil is like feet under amps

I run a small LP mastering operation, using a Scully lathe. It uses a table which is mounted on adjustable pointed feet; in turn a damping platform sits on top of that which is where the lathe hardware is mounted. This was built in the early 1950s; apparently the LP mastering industry does not think pointed feet and damping platforms are snake oil.

I think few engineers/markets set out to oil snakes.  They start off with good intentions and produce products that deliver on those intentions.  None of the three brands mentioned would be even close to the top of the list of brands I would consider snake oil peddlers.  

There are some products out there that just make you shake your head.  I can't imagine what causes people to buy some of the weird "tweaks" out there that they swear delivers better sound but are mind boggling. 

This is not a thread about the most absurd tweak, but there are some truly absurd things in the market.   

Of all the cable websites I've read I can't recall ever seeing them claim that their cables will definitely make your systems sound improved. I only read that stuff here and in reviews. They claim some wild stuff and offer nonsense reasons but as long as they stay away from making definitive statements of guaranteed success then they have CTA. 

If lawsuits against snake oil products were effective you couldn't buy homeopathy psuedo medicine at the store. Lawsuits against the type of deceptive practices employed by by some of these marketers isn't worth the time or effort. It is very hard to prove and claiming since noone has sued them they must therefore work is fallacy. 

The three brands you cite are hardly the most snake-oily.

When a company "diversifies" into these more, errr, marginal products, it's probably because they feel they're just about achieved saturation in their segment of whatever market they're in.

Business 102.

So the explanation that no suit has been filed over hi-fi fraud because it would be difficult to prove just isn’t valid.

Look we have the Inet now, Folks can google images of whatever they are considering buying. 
If they fail in their research, the blame lies with their laziness.
Rule #1, never ever believe what you read, w/o doing due diligence, = sniffing out the lies/propaganda.  Likea   good old hound dog.
Rule #2, never be too quick  to buy anything, always sleep on it
Observe these 2 basic rules, a  audiophile will be OK. 

NOTE I've seen  comments posted about a  certain coupling cap *The rave*, very exp vs others,, I know there is some snakeoil mixed in with the hype. 
But I keep my mouth shut.
I know  the lab I can trust, and so that case is closed

I think use of the word really just reflects laziness. It’s an overused cliche that says nothing at all

As i say above, Components as a  whole, can be hyped, = over promoted = propagandized. 
Snakeoil is like feet under amps, certain expensive cables, certain room treaments,  can't name the all.
All sorts of weird ideas which pass off as *upgrades*. 
Hype pertains to some opinions i read on audiogon about certain components which i <know> are being over blown. 
Take electrstats, some folks still believe in that garbage, = to me its hyped.. Is this my personal bias, or it there some truth that electrostats area  real genuine speaker experience?
I can't stand that technology. How it ever survived this long, and even ever sold, beats me. 
Now that i am on my personal bias, might as well mention solid state amplification,, Just for the record,, how is this dinosaurish technology still hanging on?? 
man, tube amplification (not SET, which i also can't stand) has blown away anything solid state. 
Now you might say,, hey thats snakeoil, worse,, hype.
AS I see it its the solid state fans hyping that style of electronics.
I think its time we tell things just like we know it. This is 2020, not the year 2000 which i consider late middle ages in  audiophile land. 
I am trying to bring this hobby up through the 21st century, exposing the <frauds>, the <hype> and the 100% pure <snakeoil>
Snakeoil buster here... 

mapman

It can be very difficult to prove fraud legally ...

Of course. That’s why we have lawyers. Yet it still appears that notwithstanding the frequent accusations of fraud that are made on this site, no one - not one single person - has ever even filed a complaint of fraud with authorities. Not one single time. That can’t be simply explained away by stating that fraud difficult to prove. No proof is required to file a complaint.

If fraud were a real problem in our world of hi-fi, you’d think at least one lawsuit seeking class action status would have been filed. After all the US is a rather litigious place - just consider some of the absurd lawsuits that have been filed: A woman who sued the government because she was burned by nacho cheese; class action status sought for suit claiming Garden Veggie Straws have no veggies;
and then there’s the class action effort regarding fake butter at Dunkin’.

So the explanation that no suit has been filed over hi-fi fraud because it would be difficult to prove just isn’t valid. Besides, it isn’t necessary to actually prove the allegation of fraud. The vast majority of cases are settled out of court.

what some would call "snake oil".

Why?
Because as we know from CV19,  propaganda goes a  veryyyy longgg way.
You can not always believe what you read, hear, 
As Kevin Deal says at Upscale aAudio,, <<If they are not showing pics of the guts of any component = means they are hiding something>> He is right. Its the old saying, a  pic tells a thosand words,, before i make any purcahse i carefully look at the guts, and weight. 
If it looks gorgeous from the outside, but inside pic looks like garbage,, and weight is puny,, I know its all hype. 
Guts + weight says alot. 
Who wants to  pay top $ for a   toy sized  transformer?
Lets rephrase your **snakeoil** which really only applies to mods/upgrades (new caps, new resistors new tubes) , for  describing a  components reputation, lets tag  it <<hype>>
There is alot of hype in this hobby. 
Snakeoil buster here. 

Dill, your first post is spot on, in very few words. They don’t want , or can’t spend, or entrenched in their “science”.
exactly cleeds, they’re not trying to protect anything except to keep their personal bubble from bursting. They’re the ones when shown the blue pill and red pill, run away from either. There may very well be people who feel they don’t hear a difference, or feel, what they hear justifies the expense. There’s not a thing wrong with that, they’re not out trying to convince anyone that they didn’t hear what they claim they did. It makes no sense to spend if the value is not there for you. Why they are so hell bent on trying to convince us not to believe our own ears, not to spend for our own enjoyment ( last I checked, it’s my money I’m spending) 

It can be very difficult to prove fraud legally. Especially when the fraud has to do with largely subjective judgement such as sound quality. This entire site is basically about sound quality and various claims about it which is mostly a subjective judgement. But it is very naive to assert fraud does not exist especially in that kind of environment. In many cases it gets downgraded to “snake oil”. Credibility is really the only thing one has here in the eyes of others and worth preserving. It is not credible to assert that all here are perfect angels all the time as a result of their common love or obsession with sound. 
My advice:  
Just be realistic and steer the course. There are always a few bad apples. Trust but verify when called for. Otherwise just have fun!

mapman

Just call fraud fraud when it occurs. 

I've always thought it odd that so many here are quick to charge fraud, yet none (to my knowledge) have ever filed a fraud complaint with authorities. So although the accusers often claim their goal is to protect the "gullible" and misinformed, it's obvious that is not their genuine interest.

This site is a business first and foremost selling luxury items. People come here to sell and buy things and make money. The value of many of those things is very subjective. Don’t let anyone fool you into believing there are no bad apples and everything in between. There is no panacea. Credibility is earned, not automatically granted. Just call it like it is. You can’t please all the people all the time. But that won’t stop some rabid marketers from claiming to. They are just doing their job.

teo_audio

Snake Oil is a safe ’word phrase’ ... As soon as I hear it being bandied about ... I know we’re dealing with a person who has a lesser mental capacity than the task at hand requires ...

I think use of the word really just reflects laziness. It’s an overused cliche that says nothing at all. It’s so much easier to bleat "Snake oil! Snake oil!" than it is to string a few words together into a reasoned opinion.

Just call fraud fraud when it occurs.    Everyone knows what that is.  

Nobody "needs" high-end audio, it’s a want thing. And tell one should not want that because it it too expensive, doesn’t work or can’t work as advertised. Hence, saving us from ourselves. Really?

I agree with, (GEORGEHIFI) 110%. MONEY. Becomes the marking tool not PRODUCT....

 EXTREMELY  expensive things you really  don't  need ,but others swear you do.

Way off base!!!!

Snake Oil is a safe ’word phrase’.

It’s a ’decider’. A black white, yes no,..a thing used as a tool for a deciding moment that helps stop mental perturbation in the area of unknowns for the given individual.

A safe word/phrase for those with a ..er..more set metal reach.

Other play this game at different levels of mental capacity and awareness.

"Snake Oil" is one of those which is used or has been come to be used in the world of audio.

As soon as I hear it being bandied about and thrown.. like a weighted manhole cover in a world of nickel words and phrases -- I know we’re dealing with a person who has a lesser mental capacity than the task at hand requires.... and is trying to be ’safe’ and simplify their world.....to their given simpler level.

It goes like this: I am safe and ok.., over there be dragons. So.. dragon bad, me safe..is good, therefore..the unknown I can’t fathom, is automatically, snake oil, as a label and thing.....no matter it’s shape or the nature of it’s unknowns. And now with that label, and that positive decision.....my monkey feels safe as it ~knows~ there are no unknown lions in the tall grass...and I can safely walk down to the water for a needed drink.

So, it's a primitive reaction, is the deal. the backside of the mind, reaching a cognitive limit.... trying to get to a safe spot. Seriously. We all have them at some level or another.

"snake oil" A convenient term that is used by ones that either, are too lazy or cheap to try the product to see if it actually works as advertised or already, in their minds know that it can’t possibly work because of their learned science. Or, if I can't hear a difference, it's snake oil. Then poo poo the ones that do try and like the results then attribute their opinions to the "placebo effect".