Adjusting speaker positioning. What, if anything, to expect?
I am going to adjust my Magico A3’s positioning a little bit to try to optimize their performance and the listening experience. Due to the logistics of the room they’re in, there’s only a limited amount I can move them. I’ll describe the room and what I can do within those limitations. I’m wondering what improvement I might be able to achieve with adjusting positioning.
The room is approximately 14’ x 22’. There is a high vaulted ceiling. about 15’ at it’s peak centered in the room on its horizontal axis. Picture how kindergarten child draws a house. That’s the shape of a cross section of the room and vaulted ceiling.. The speakers are located about 8’ apart centered on the long wall. The front of the A3’s are only out 22" from the wall, the rear of the speakers only 9" from the wall. That can’t be helped. The prime listening position is on a couch about 10’ out from and facing the same wall, also centered. The components are on shelves centered and built into the same long wall the speakers are on. There are some other furnishings, and books above built-in cabinets, line most of the other three walls.
I can move the speakers about a foot farther apart or closer together, and I can change their toe-in. What changes, if any, might I be expecting or hope to achieve moving the speakers within these limited parameters? Could the sound-stage be affected? I’m not sure what the sound-stage should be like anyway. Should it extend to the left or right outside the speakers, or be mainly between the speakers? Right now depending on the recording the vocals and instruments are usually between or no further apart than the actual speakers. Could the treble, midrange, or bass response be augmented or diminished depending on positioning? Are there any other factors that may be affected by positioning alone? Thank you for any guidance and please feel free to ask any questions. Thanks,
Tomic601, I have had some luck adjusting the speakers positioning, even though it’s a pretty limited amount I can move them around to make adjustments.
I’ve had to put off purchasing any books or anything else for that matter outside of groceries until the first of the month. Since you mentioned a woodworking machine, I’ll mention I found a rare, but definitely overpriced, part that I’ve been looking for for the last two years for a vintage Delta belt/disk combination sander . I had to get it while it was available. That and some other unnecessary spending at the outset of the month (on a painting) forced me to step on the financial brakes for a minute. Thanks for explaining what Vandertones are, and good analogy on the table saw runout. Judging from that and some other things you’ve mentioned here and there, you’re undoubtedly a well rounded individual. Thanks again,
Mike - hope you found both books used. The Vandertones are warble tones that you play back on your system one channel at a time while measuring SPL at listening chair. This will give you an 11 frequency map of what your room/ speaker interaction is doing - it’s not theoretical at all. I would think of it as KNOWING what the runout on your tablesaw/ blade combination is, make sense ?
Tomico, I did find and download the Vandertones but have no idea what to do with them yet. Mostly what I am doing now is only moving the A3’s laterally from 7’ to maybe 9" apart and adjusting their toe in. There’s really no a lot of play in what I can do now. If I ever get a music room addition added to the house after I get the shop built I’ll have an opportunity to do more in terms of placement and acoustics. Then the more advanced theoretical aspects you all have been introducing me to will come into play, maybe even in the room design and planning stage. I’ll take a look on the ABE used books site and see if they have good condition copy of the Jim Smith book. I wonder if there’s a hardcover edition available?
Millercarbon, the Harley book sounds interesting too. I’ll track one of them down too. I’d like to learn more about room dimensions so I don’t make a mistake in the planning stage drawing up the blueprints of a music room addition. Tentatively I always planned that room to mimic the size of the two car garage on the opposite side of the house in order to maintain the home’s symmetry. That would make the music room 24’ wide by 30’ long with 10’ flat ceiling, no cathedral type structure to it. Maybe those Fibonacci equations would give some guidance of how this might work out acoustically. But I’m getting way ahead of myself. Right now getting the Magico’s spacing and toe-in correctly done is the focus.
Actually, just playing around with the toe in and reducing the distance between the speakers seems to be having a salutary effect. I played Emmylou Harris’ "Wrecking Ball album again", because it’s a more recently recorded and well produced CD. It sounded really beautiful with just those slight adjustments, and I don’t even usually care much for country music.
Kacomes, this has been an interesting discussion. There are some really knowledgeable folk here you can really learn a lot from when they share what they’ve learned about audio. You have to appreciate their input even when it starts going over your head. There’s a lot to be learned.
But, IF you already have a room, the Fibbo placement methodology changes where you put the speakers to minimize reinforcement, both positive or negative.
Actually we do build rooms and speaker boxes exactly like that, to the Fibbo sequence, and since RH book is beginner math, we rely on stuff like Olson, Harry F - Elements of Acoustical Engineering. we use the Fibbo sequence, when rarely we have to use parallel surfaces. Harley excellent book should also be in the word salad Arsenal.
This is a very interesting and informative discussion! I wish that - like some other forums - the moderators could "flag" key exchanges so they can be easily found and consulted for future reference (but maybe they have done that already: if so, flag this one, please)
If you’re gonna read a book then Robert Harley’s Complete Guide to High End Audio is a far better place to start. Its not that the other one is bad, its just I find understanding concepts works a whole lot better in the long run than memorizing platitudes. The difference is my way you can actually build a music system and not just type word salad.
Like fibbo. Yeah Fibonacci, you looked it up. Did you find anything useful? Did the word salad typer have anything useful to say? No. Word salad.
Let me explain why it matters, so you will understand, and be better able to position speakers and do all the other stuff that matters.
Sound travels in waves of different wavelengths. Which in a room is a problem, because sound keeps hitting the walls and bouncing back. Which if this happens with short frequencies like treble no problem we can disperse it or absorb it pretty easy. Because the wavelengths are short the stuff that will diffuse or absorb can be small. No problem.
Lower down though, the wavelength can be longer than the room. The wave hits the wall, bounces back, reinforces itself. You get what is called a room mode. Where this happens the bass will be really loud. But it can also cancel. Where this happens the bass can be almost totally cancelled to nothing.
Got it? So far we’re just talking like its one way. But its three ways- length, width, and height. So what’s the worst room? A cube. 12x12x12 or whatever. Doesn’t matter. 20x20x20. Whatever. All those duplicate dimensions result in the same mode and the same null and the only thing different is the frequency.
Knowing the physics you can sit down with a piece of paper and map or graph out the various length, width, and height room modes for any given room. Then plot them out and see. And oh, guess what? There’s actually a chapter in Harley’s book on this.
So anyway, you do this enough times for enough rooms and eventually some smart alek says hey the room with the smoothest most spread out modes follows this fibonacci sequence where the dimensions are fibonacci ratios of each other. Only nobody ever gonna build a room like that, because its like fractions of an inch difference, you just want to avoid stuff like 8x16x24 which you would know because I just explained and now you know all those are multiples of each other.
You see, I hope, the difference between information and word salad?
Well you found Fibbo! And if you can do woodwork you could download the free setup manual I talked about... really simple stuff most advanced math is division...by all means buy the CD and have at it. My speakers null out in the Anechoic chamber at the factory with precision driver matching AND custom crossover tuning,
did you download vandertones? At least see what your room is doing below 120 HZ...
Insearchofprat, that sounds like a good practical way to systematically adjust my current speakers location withing the restricted location parameters I’ve got to deal with. I’m not sure all of my new components are broken in thoroughly. The Magicos require 400, maybe 450 hours to be thoroughly broken in. I’ve had them installed since last Spring but haven’t kept track of the hours. My Marantz Ruby CD player is practically fresh out of the box so tha’ts certainly not. Maybe I’ll have to go back six months from now maybe and readjust positioning if break-in time is that important a factor.
Richopp, sounds like we have some similar interests. I’m breaking ground on a woodworking shop at home soon as it warms up a bit. I’ve a garage full of vintage U.S. manufactured wood working machines acquired over the past couple of years or so, I’ll be putting out there. I designed and finished installing the built-in cabinetry for my current audio system not long ago. Audiogon and OWWM (Old Woodworking Machines) are my favorite sites online.
Vinylvalet, I’ll see if our local library is able to get a copy of the "Get Better Sound" book to look through. That’s quite interesting you were able to meet the author and listen to his system. What impressed you most about the sound you heard in his music room? And If you don’t mind providing a preview, what are some of his techniques, or general approach, that enabled him to achieve the impressive results you heard with a modest system? And thanks for the link.
Jim Smith's book, Get Better Sound, ~$40, IMHO, is the best setup method I know of. Lots of other tips as well. I spent an afternoon with Jim in his music room, relatively modest system, best sound I've ever heard, a real eyeopener.
@skyscraper Sorry to hear that you were not able to get into Maggies due to size. I completely understand as this occurred many times back in the day when I had my shop. We also made solid wood cabinets and furniture for housing equipment, and I can tell you that there were many "discussions" in the shop about what was acceptable and what was not.
Today, Magnepan has many different models of various sizes, but I get that you are keeping what you have.
I am sure you will eventually get them positioned to your satisfaction and be sure to keep enjoying the music, which is what this is all about.
IMHO: you cannot do this alone - you need at least * one helper *...
Start by setting up by mathematical equilaterial GOLDEN TRIANGLE FORMULA, based on "The Spot" you plan to listen from. ACTUALLY MEASURE IT OUT TO START
Position speakers where you think they should be - from back and side walls
"Toe-In" - stand behind speaker and 'aim it' at that spot (mirror image, both with the same angle toward the listener. MARK IN CHALK AS #1
Play a 30-60 second repeat of sound (music, whatever) you are more than familiar with: repeat 3-4 times - with a good 5second in between plays.YOU LISTEN AND ONLY YOU LISTEN. WRITE DOWN YOUR INITIAL IMPRESSIONS...
Have your "helper" adjust each speaker (obviously do with both speakers) out away from the direct line you started from, in about 1/4" increments. MARK ON THE FLOOR/CARPET/WHATEVER in chalk #2... Repeat the listening repetition and WRITE DOWN YOUR IMPRESSIONS ( BIGGER WIDER DEEPER SOUNDSTAGE; MORE FORCEFUL BASS; LESS FOCUS OF VOCAL; LESS REAL: WHATEVER YOU ACTUALLY HEAR)
Repeat above procedure moving speakers more away from initial position...
The most important caveat for any initial listening experiences are: IS YOUR EQUIPMENT AND ALL CABLES AND CORDS BROKEN IN ? ARE YOU SURE?
Tomico60 and asvjerry, OK, I did google Fibbo sequence and came up with the Fibonnacci sequence. I’m guessing this is what you are talking about. Said something about the golden rule be an example. My golden rule is do unto others....... and leave the math to someone else. I’d get hopelessly lost doing it in forward, much less reverse. I could likely figure it out, but rather go to the dentist for another root canal.
Geoffkait, I will get that XLO test CD, check it out and report back.. My options for speaker placement are severely limited if you recall ,and there will be no room treatments. I’ll probably not be able to achieve sound coming from all over the room. The only time I’ve had that effect was quite recently with a Sonny Rollins record newly purchased. Oddly enough the piano on one track clearly was positioned on the center of a side wall, maybe eight feet out from the left speaker and a few feet behind an upholstered chair . It was a quite startling and weird effect. Can a recording or one instrument be recorded out of phase to cause that effect? That’s the only recording that’s ever done anything like that. I played it twice even it was so odd with the same result.
Elliot, The Magico A3’s are on spikes and the spikes came with small metal discs they sit on to protect the oak flooring. They do slide on the floor fairly easily and I’ve only a small distance to work with for speaker placement, but thank you for the link to the wheeled dolly/stand anyway. I could try them without the spikes or other decoupling options though, and see if that offers any improvement. I hadn’t considered doing that.
Richopp, I did audition some Magneplanars back in 1976 when I got my old Dahlquist DQ10’s. They sounded good, but were big as doors and the WAF ruled out their purchase. The much smaller, but still substantial size of the DQ10’s bought me enough grief over the years as it is.
I’m glad you’re pleased with your Maggies. They must sound great. I’ll have to content myself with the speakers I’m burdened with now, having made a mistaken speaker choice twice in a row. Due to the intentional and misleading name similarity I might have been confused thinking Magico’s were Maggies.
I will play around with the Magico A3’s positioning some as you described to wean the last bit of musicality out of them.Then thanks to your clearing up my thinking on this matter, my next speaker purchase, planned for 2060, will definitely be for Maggies. Thanks
@skyscraper Well, man, sometimes the truth hurts, right?
Being openly prejudiced is one of my many, many failings in life, but hey, you only go around once, right (as far as we know, anyway,,,) so you might as well have the best!
Obviously this is all meant as lighthearted fun...whatever speakers you have will need to be set-up carefully IN YOUR ROOM, and you should audition whatever equipment you are thinking of buying in that same room.
Speaker set-up is sometimes difficult, and the various ways presented here are probably OK. Stereophile had a CD for setup at one time, I believe, and even my Denon home theatre system came with a microphone to help me set it up IN MY ROOM, although I made some manual changes later.
The point is, obviously, use whatever you can to help you obtain the sound of the music that YOU love.
It just happens that Maggies are the only way to get the BEST sound...uh oh, here we go again!
to help move them hither and thither, find differences/preferred location(s) and, then
learn if you truly hear any benefit from spikes.
First, existing location: listen with spikes. Then remove spikes, listen. Now on the wheels .......
After you find preferred location(s), you can repeat listening with spikes; no spikes; on wheels. I tried, I assumed, I believed, finally I tested, I don’t need/benefit from spikes. I added wheels to my heavy speakers. I don’t lose anything on wheels. You can always put spikes back to re-check.
What I would do, is leave them permanently on wheels, have a close to the wall location that works for moving around the room, decor factor, then
roll them out to their ideal listening position when listening. leave them out until they need to be pushed back.
Perhaps one location for a single listener, another position (toe in more) for a pair of listeners, when you want a wider center image.
Exact location: yes, you will want an easy method to move/locate two corners of the speakers when you roll them out. You can figure that out. Temporary wide painter’s tape while trying here and there.
My speakers are shorter, wider, and deeper than yours so I can safely use 3 wheels, (3 never wobble and distribute all the weight divided by 3). I think yours would be safer on 4 wheels. 4 wheels may need a leveling shim whereas 3 don’t.
And another thing. Another reason the laser method is not such a good one is that all speakers have different radiation patterns. Combine different radiation patterns with different room geometries and you have a recipe for disaster. That’s why the out-of-phase (read polarity) track is the ONLY perfect way to find the absolute best speaker positions. No matter what shape you’re in regarding room geometry, acoustic treatments, other tweaks like isolation, AND radiation pattern of your speakers the out-of-phase track gives you the best you can do under current conditions.
NOTE - the out-of-phase track ALSO is the KEY 🔑 to finding the 🔜 ideal locations 🔙 for future room and current acoustics treatments. As I mentioned already, in the beginning when first starting out with the XLO Test CD you will almost certainly have a hard time getting the sound to “come from all around the room with no particular direction.” But I never promised you a rose garden. 🌹 🌹 🌹
BTW, I have the Leica in the away box and the Bosch in the home box... prefer the Red tool but they both are awesome, get your chin to tweeter to match <1”
Another reason to get an SPL meter is you skip to the a/b head of the class, graduate out of louder is better Club , they tend to own 20 power amps or DACs over a ten year period, gear changers with push button transmission hooked to an infinite wallet, or so it seems...
Glupson, I've moved the speakers today almost about as close together as they can go in this setting, 7 feet OC, and I' m pleased with the result so far. I wouldn't have guessed that would be the way to go. There must be some point of no return on moving them closer.
Also thanks for the suggestion and link on he laser measuring devices. I've every tool under the sun, but not one of those for no sensible reason.. I'd like to get the one for casting level lines in a room as well, like for hanging paintings or installing chair rails evenly etc. Consider it done.
Tomico, I did just now go ahead and watch a youtube video on use of an SPL meter, since I've never heard of one before. Interesting toys for boys (or girls for that matter, if Elizabeth happens to be reading this) you and Glupson are suggesting today. The Lieco Disto laser measure looked sweet, especially being Swiss made. That whet's my appetite. I'll search out those Vandersteen download, although having to do math beyond measuring, may give me a flashback to the horrors of high school algebra and trig classes. Thanks for the suggestions.
Geoffkait, you and Tomico both if he's suggesting math.
Download a Vandersteen manual for a math based approach to speaker positioning. get jim smiths excellent book. The Leica Disto is cheap , especially compared to Magico. Not having good tools is like running Mohawks on a Porsche. Finally, figure out what your speaker room interface is doing, again a free download - Vandertones... and a $50 investment in the right SPL meter...
I think if you and geoffkait says the same thing, perhaps the second return of J.C. is near or perhaps you are right....I will opt for the second possibility... :)
If you think about it in the way recordings are made, you may really be chasing your tail trying to achieve what you think should be there. One recording is great and then another one may be a little more "narrow" than what you may think it should be. In that case, geoffkait’s approach of only one "source material" may really make the most sense.
Also, and I hate to reference geoffkait again, when you set it up to what you think is satisfactory, try moving speakers closer. You may be surprised. For some reason, without going into poetic descriptions, I find it somehow better. In short, as geoffkait tends to say, most of the speakers should be placed closer together rather than further apart. Of course, you be the judge, but it may be worth trying.
Also, how can you resist buying this toy? Just imagine what you can measure? You may be too busy measuring everything around and forget to set the speakers up.
Morningstaraudio, you're lucky to have one of those laser measuring devices I was thinking how nice it would be to have one this morning as I was trying to accurately aim the speakers so they would both point to the exact same spot on wall the behind couch.
Geoffkait. It might be a good starting point though to make adjustment from, to follow with using the XLO to make adjustments as needed to suit the room's layout and furnishings. My listening room, designed in a Federal style, is symmetrical, which should lend itself to both approaches readily enough I would think. We'll see soon enough.
Larry, I've achieved a bit of a similar effect this morning, by more exactly measuring the toe in and trying to aim it directly at my head in the center listening location, and then next somewhat behind it, while moving the speakers closer together from eight feet on center to seven feet.. The sound on Miles Davis' "Seven Steps to Heaven" seemed better focused and maybe the bass tighter. It's too soon to tell though without a lot more listening and adjusting, not to mention using the test record Geoff has recommended.
Mijostyn, I'll try listening to some live recordings while setting things up. It's interesting how different recording engineers approaches to mixing and maybe remastering create different soundstages,
For instance listening to "Gerry Mulligan meets Ben Webster" earlier today, It was clear some instruments were located center stage in places between the speakers. But Ben Webter's tenor sax was clearly emanating from the right speaker and Gerry Mulligan's baritone sax clearly coming out of the left. Who knows how this was originally recorded and mixed sixty years ago though?
Sounds like you've had some practice setting up systems with some more sophisticated techniques than I'm likely to muster. You're welcome to come over and give it a shot.
Even the best manufacturers are not capable of making two speakers perform exactly the same. There are always some differences in frequency response. This is were a room control system comes into play. It can make both channels virtually identical which results in the best imaging.
Thanks very astute observation.... My best mijostyn
Yes skyscraper you are correct. With most modern studio recordings the image is based on what the mastering engineer thinks everyone wants to hear by virtue of his own ability to mix correctly and the quality of the system he is using to do this, all of which is questionable. Live recordings can be much more useful in evaluating a system. We all have our favorite records when it comes to imaging. We also know how favorite studio recordings image and know what to expect if a system is set up correctly. As far as image size is concerned it depends on the type of speaker. Dynamic speakers create a small sound stage as if you are sitting in the back. Linear Arrays or Line source speaker throw a larger stage as if you are sitting up front. There are advocates of both types. A good system is capable of imaging beyond the speakers with the right recording. Using an out of phase signal to set up speakers seems a bit odd to me but hey, what do I know. I use a computer, a microphone and an impulse testing program to adjust the speakers in time, phase and frequency response. This does not negate the use of appropriate acoustic treatments and intelligent speaker location. I adhere to the symmetry concept and designed my media room accordingly. But, having measured quite a few speakers this does not guarantee the best imaging or symmetrical performance. Even the best manufacturers are not capable of making two speakers perform exactly the same. There are always some differences in frequency response. This is were a room control system comes into play. It can make both channels virtually identical which results in the best imaging.
I measured the distance from the back wall and side walls to measure exactly the same and then pointed the toe in to reach my listening position. This instantly changed things. I noticed my mid range and tweeters really settled down.
I went to Soundings in Denver and they demoed master setting speakers. The sound is very noticeable. What's nice is you don't have to sit in the sweet spot, which is nice when you have guests over to listen to music and cocktails. I moved my speakers away from the wall and toed then in perfectly and that made a huge difference. Adding a pair of REL S3 SHO subwoofers also improved the bass extension.
Thanks for the XLO test cd...I already look for it one year ago and forgot it....I try it seriously today...
Very interesting test....The 4 phase sections are very useful....
It seems my speakers are quite good and rightly located....
Before this test I guessed my system parts were in phase but it was only my impressions...Now at least I know that they are by testing.... Thanks with a smile from the past... :)
The laser method is not nearly as good as the XLO Test CD method. How do I know? Because the XLO Test CD will find the NEW absolute best speaker locations after adding room acoustics devices or other tweaks to the room. Whereas the laser method cannot account for new additions to the system or system tweaks. In fact the laser method doesn’t ever account for room treatment or tweaks. Hel-ooo! It’s not (rpt not) a static situation with the speaker locations. You do NOT want your speakers locked in place.
I received at Christmas a laser tape measure that measures to within a sixteenth of an inch. My speakers are now so locked in place with accuracy that it was a epiphany .
Geoffkait, $19.99 for the XLO Test CD is even better yet. Thanks.
Richopp and winnardt, your implication there are better and more accurate speakers than my Magico A3's is dastardly indeed.
Big_greg, since it was reported yesterday Amazon's Jeff Bezos just bought the most expensive home in all of California, he surely requires our full support.
I agree with richopp, but recognize that placement is probably more important to Maggies than most other speakers because of the fantastic imaging and sound stage they produce. When you get Maggies set up properly, you'll have an "so that's what I've been missing" kind of moment.
I prefer not to buy anything from Amazon. I ordered the XLO Test CD from Elusive Disc for $23.79 (including shipping). They were in stock for a minute, looks like they're out again.
If you really wanna have fun. buy some actually accurate speakers from Magnepan that only reproduce what you send them and set those up in a given room.
Ncdogdoc, thanks for the link, that’s about $30 less for the XLO test disc.
Cheeg, how due you get the sound stage to extend outwards without being out of phase?
Rego, thanks for your clarifications and the link to the Townsend video on decoupling. That was interesting. For a second beforehand I thought you were referring to a Pete Townsend video and wanting me to smash my speakers with a guitar to decouple them.
Rbstehno, the position of the doorways and the built-in cabinets below the bookshelves on the short walls precludes putting the speakers on the short wall. Also the flat screen TV is located above the stereo component shelves between the speakers on the long wall, and the couch needs to face that direction. On the short walls the TV would cover the built in book shelves if placed there. Other than that no problem. Your arrangement that way probably sounds quite good I'd imagine in a similar sized room. It's unfortunately just not possible here without some drastic remodeling.
Why not put the speakers on the 14’ wall and use the 1/3 speaker position which is placing the front of the speaker 7’ from the back wall and put your chair 7’ from the walk behind the chair. i actually have the same room length as you but a couple feet wider and I have my ushers 7’ from the back wall but I have my chair 4’ from the back wall. Give your speakers room to breathe. I also have room treatments for all corners and 1st reflection points
The Baffle is the entire front panel of a Loudspeaker (the surface that the drivers are attached). The Baffle is also significant with regard to Radiation Pattern and how (in the case of) the A3 integrates in a room. Do not worry about this. Your primary concern is to listen for the differences in positioning. Exaggerate the spacing a bit to experience the difference. Six feet is close to a limit for spacing. Seven feet (7’) is only a reference for illustration. "How to Isolate Speakers" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW9-r83IvhI Illustrates physical decoupling. Thanks Townshend! A direct Physical contact to a wooden sub-floor will transmit vibration in both directions! Isolating all Audio Components can help make improvements. Decoupling is something to be aware of while you are focusing on improvements. Using low friction pads under the spikes to slide the Loudspeaker on a carpet (for example) would decouple the A3.
A reference point for measurement is a common question and not often specified. The centerline on the edge of the Baffle in the vertical axis is the reference line. Measure to / from any common point to the wall as it suits you though. Use string and a marker if you so choose. A throw rug on a tile floor could make a substantial difference in a ’Bright Listening Space’.
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