I have a relatively nice system, but have done nothing with my AC power, with the exception of upgraded PC’s and a cheap iFi plug in power conditioner. My question is multi fold… do I need to do something, and if so what? Dedicated line (15A or 20?)? Quality power conditioner? Both? Which one first? How do you tell?
My system is a combination of HT & 2 channel & I tend to use both simultaneously as I like to watch sports while listening to music.
My amp is (I think) a relatively low draw… Moon 330A, Rythmik sub, BHK pre, Aurender, Qutest w/Sbooster, R11’s. No high power amps are in my future & never listen above 75db. I do currently plug my amp directly into the wall. All my wall warts are gone. For my HT, add a 75” Sony TV, Marantz 7015 AVR & a Klipsch sub (although at zero volume the AVR & sub should not come into play).
I am considering buying the Furman IT-Reference 15i or 20i first as they are well reviewed & are priced very well on Amazon ($1,400 / $1,900). Before I pull the trigger, should I go dedicated power & at what amperage (my nephew, an EE & audiophile thinks I am drawing no more than 5 amps) as that will dictate the Furman model?
Interesting, my nephew thinks neither are worth the investment. His statement: “Do you have appliances on the circuit now? What kind of interference can they inject?...voltage drops would come from current draws...which trip breakers.
Not steady 60hz a good power supply handles. So it all comes back to was the power supply engineer dropped on his head as a child.”
”Personally I think it’s something audio people do when they have run out of gear to buy.”
Any thoughts or recommendations would be appreciated. Thanks!
@jea48 - The approach Furman takes, which appears to be to switch as close to the zero Volt crossing of the AC waveform is pretty thoughtful and not common among all regulators out there.
IMHO it’s a very cost effective design overall.
Interestingly enough, Roger Sander’s Magtech amps take on a similar approach, offering rock solid power rails to an overbuilt output stage made by Coda. In that case however, while he does switch taps at 0V, instead of using an autoformer he switches taps on the main power supply transformer, which of course is quite custom.
I consider @erik_squiresthe Audiogon resident expert on Furman power conditioners. He has more knowledge than I on Furman power condioners technologically. @erik_squiresis better qualified than I to answer your question regarding the design and circuitry of voltage regulation of the P-2400.
As for me the way the P-2400 voltage regulation, design, circuitry, is implemented sounds pretty sophisticated to me. Switching from a winding tap to another winding tap without causing a distortion in the sine wave or any type, no mater how fast, the switching method used is not an easy thing to do. Furmam seems to have it figured out without the user hearing anything from his audio system. If not you would be reading about it on the Net.
True RMS Voltage Regulation Technology
True RMS Voltage Regulation is designed around an ultra-low noise eight-tap toroidal autoformer. A microprocessor within the P-2400 AR monitors the incoming RMS voltage with each cycle, measuring the phase angle in time with the advancing cycle. Most commercial voltage regulators using multiple-tapped transformers switch taps at uncontrolled times. This creates voltage spikes and clicks that can leak into audio. When a voltage fluctuation requires correction by the P-2400 AR, True RMS Voltage Regulation advances a new tap with less stress and in turn avoids distortion to the AC waveform.
WOW!
.
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An autotransformer does not provide isolation from the AC mains to the output side of the transformer. That is not the purpose, intention, of the design of the use of the eight tap toroidal "autoformer" in the P-2400.
Also, it's my experience that autotransformers like used in voltage regulators don't have the mass inrush current that the dual winding transformers have which are used in isolators. I could be wrong, but this is my memory.
When I turn my 1800VA unit on and off there's no dimming of the lights or any other sign it's on besides the LEDs. I've had isolators and yeah, they behaved just like having a big amp.
(Unless the P 2400 has a soft start circuit built into it to limit power-on inrush current.) ???
No, but the outlets take a few seconds before they are turned on. This is part of the safety monitoring system. It will make sure the voltage is stable before allowing downstream components to turn on.
One other question… can the Furman be near my speaker or interconnect cables and not cause problems?
Here are my observations. Enough to hear a noticeable difference - not night & day. Compromises are made - and we do what works best for each of our circumstances.
I think I would plug it into the analog. My reasoning is based on the linear power supply in the AVR. You can always try it both ways. Listen for differences.
Look at the photo of the power transformer inside of the AVR. Power transformer is on the front left hand side.
I believe that is a Bobbin type power transformer. It doesn’t look an like EI transformer to me.
//
Side note.
When you receive the Furman P 2400 and plug everything into it make sure the plugged in equipment with power transformers, like power amplifiers, are powered off. Because of the VA rating size of the Toroidal isolation power transformer in the P 2400 the initial turn-on inrush current will be fairly high, then quickly fall off. You don’t want to add any loads on the P 2400 transformer to add any additional inrush current onto the 15 amp circuit breaker in the electrical panel, that may cause it trip open. (Unless the P 2400 has a soft start circuit built into it to limit power-on inrush current.) ???
The bigger the VA rating of a power transformer the better, when used to feed power amplifiers.
Quick question. Should I plug my Marantz 7015 AVR into the Analog or Digital side of my new conditioner? It is analog, but performs digital processing via HDMI for my home theater, so I am thinking digital. Agreed? Thanks
I am back to buying the P-2400 for all the reasons I stated earlier…+ not only spacing of outlets, but number of outlets. At 39lb, It is substantially more robust than the 15lb P-1800. It retails for more than $1,500 more than the P-1800 but sells for only $300 more.
I can address the compatibility issue. This seems to be a no brainer. Thanks to all!
@erik_squiresAgreed, the P2400 has plenty of space for audiophile PC’s… one of my reasons for choosing it. The P1800 is a different story on the right leg… ego the potential issue. Thanks
The P-2400 has standard household socket spacing, which is pretty generous. If you find yourself running several super-sized AC cords you may want to get 1' extension or 3:1 plug cords.
The sockets in the rear have T shaped plugs so they'll accommodate your normal 15A or 20A plug.
One other question… can the Furman be near my speaker or interconnect cables and not cause problems? For reference, my cables are Transparent +… very well shielded, interconnects are Mogami 2549. Is that another issue?
@jea48Thanks! Good catch. @erik_squiresI know I probably don’t need 20A, but as stated earlier in the thread, the only incremental cost is the heavier gauge wire. Regardless, I didn’t realize the plugs were different. Are the rear plugs also different, requiring replacement PC’s?
As the owner of the 15A model, any issues with plug spacing for large billet plugs? The left bank looks good, but the right looks tight.
Assuming sufficient space for large plugs, I will order the 15A version. Thanks
Problem? The electrical panel manufacturer when out of business years ago. There are no NOS stock breakers. There definitely are not any Tandem breakers. They didn’t exist back then.
Well if they are using Stab-lock breakers you should replace the entire panel anyway.
Generally speaking, @jea48 is right about not mixing breakers.
Technically speaking, if you are mixing breaker brands the breaker has to be "listed" as being tested with the other maker’s panel. I believe this has to do with the maximum interrupt current of the individual vs. main breakers. In any event...
First, per NEC, all circuit breakers shall be Listed.
Quote:
NEC 110.3(B)
Installation and Use. Equipment that is listed, labeled, or both shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.
End of quote.
The section is talking about the manufacturer of the electrical panel. Not because a different manufacturer breaker is Listed. The different manufacturer’s breaker is not approved for use in the panel by the manufacturer of the panel.
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Even if you do get a "listed" breaker, when you go to sell the inspector probably won’t bother to check if it’s listed or not and will flag it as something to be corrected. Just not worth the hassle or potential $10 in savings.
True, are any of them home inspectors retired licensed electrical inspectors or retired licensed electricians? The extent of their electrical knowledge is to use a plug-in circuit tester to check for an Open Ground at wall outlets. And GFCI outlets required in the house per Code.
As for installing a different manufacturer’s circuit breaker in another’s manufacturers electrical panel that has been in the NEC for years. I know first hand, on a few instances the electrical inspector seen the violation. Not I ,well maybe I did, but usually the breaker was installed by a different electrical contractor/electrician previously.
Problem is doing electrical work in old buildings in a city where a remodel is taking place. The General Contractor pulls a permit... All subs pull permits. The general contractor can’t call for an inspection until the subs call for an inspection, (if a sub’s work needs inspection before the general contractor’s inspection.)
Problem for the Electrical contractor/Electrician? Usually at the final electrical inspection. The electrical inspector will say something like "did you add any new circuits?" LOL, he knows you did... "Show me the panel." Usually the circuit breaker manufacturer’s name is on the face of the breaker. Problem? The electrical panel manufacturer went out of business years ago. There are no NOS stock breakers. There definitely are not any Tandem breakers. They didn’t exist back then.
I missed where you are ever getting close to 15A, let alone 20A.
However, if you insist on a 20A unit, you’ll need to replace the plug. I use Leviton Hospital Grade plugs because their thick prongs are tighter but also the 90 degree angle takes less floor space and is less likely to wiggle out due to cable movement and leverage.
Actually I only use a 15A conditioner, but still replaced the plug to keep the cable against the wall. This let me push a bass trap flat to the wall where the plug is.
Technically you will need a 20A branch circuit installed. The captive cord, I believe, was installed on the unit so it could get it safety test Listed. Listed like UL Listed or any other NRTL Listing.
FYI, just guessing, (You know) you will never use a total of up to 15 amps of a combined continuous connected load. Continuous is defined 3 hours or more, NEC.
Generally speaking, @jea48 is right about not mixing breakers.
Technically speaking, if you are mixing breaker brands the breaker has to be "listed" as being tested with the other maker’s panel. I believe this has to do with the maximum interrupt current of the individual vs. main breakers. In any event...
Even if you do get a "listed" breaker, when you go to sell the inspector probably won’t bother to check if it’s listed or not and will flag it as something to be corrected. Just not worth the hassle or potential $10 in savings.
So.... I generally also recommend sticking with the panel maker’s breakers even though you may find a listed breaker to use instead, and always stick to the NEC and local ordinances. If you are replacing a CAFCI or GFCI or combo breaker always replace it with the same feature set. (Exception is old AFCI are now called CAFCI and that is good!)..
OK, my decision has been made. I am sold on the AR features. I will purchase the Furman P 2400 AR vs the 1800 for the following reasons:
1. Both have the AR features
2. It will be compatible with both 15A short term & 20A long term
3. The spacing of the rear outlets should allow large audiophile plugs
4. The captive (why captive?) PC is 12GA vs 14GA for the 1800
5. It is larger & may be more robust
5. Only $300 more on Amazon
I will install it vertically behind my long rack. That will allow me to use my existing PC’s & provide good spacing between my components and it.
I will order it this afternoon after I return from golf. Please let me know if you see any issues with my logic.
Thank you all for your outstanding recommendations! Great thread. I learned a lot from very knowledgeable people!
Note: The 1800 AR listed on Amazon may in fact be the 1800 PF A, a non AR model. While it is described as an AR, if you zoom in on the picture it is a PF A. Most reviewers describe the AR features, but one flatly stated it was a PF A. Regardless returnable if not an AR.
One question I do have abut dedicated circuits, is it worth the extra money to get magnetic breakers over the cheap other ones?
I assume you mean the circuit breakers in an electrical panel. The breakers in the electrical panel are Thermal Magnetic Breakers.
Per NEC, (National Electrical Code), only breakers Listed by the panel manufacturer can be used in the electrical panel. All branch circuit breakers used in electrical panels are Thermal Magnetic type breakers. You wouldn’t want just a magnetic type breaker.
The thermal trip unit is for normal overloading of a circuit. It has a bi-metal strip that the circuit current flows through. When too much current passes through it the breaker trips open. (breaker trip curve).
The magnetic unit in the breaker is for short circuit faults.The magnet trip part of the breaker is also what trips the breaker when there is high inrush current. (Good example is an old across the AC Line big power Krell power Amp).
Here is a video of how it works. Note the panel shown is a Square D QO load center with a main breaker. The breaker used in the demonstration is an Eaton 15 amp breaker.
The video is of a regular type thermal magnetic breaker. Breakers found in new homes are still thermal magnetic breakers but also are AFCI, Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter, breakers. These are not cheap, They are expensive.
Then there are GFCI, Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter, breakers. AFCI / GFCI Dual Function circuit breakers. They are really expensive! All these breakers also have a thermal magnetic trip mechanism built into them too.
Maybe worth talking a little about "old school" regulators like Furman vs. PS Audio.
Transformer based regulators have a fixed number of taps which are like holes on a belt. The conditioner constantly picks the best tap based on the output voltage. When that tap no longer is ideal it will switch. This means that adjustments are in about 5 volt increments either way. The advantage of this technology is efficiency and lack of switching noise in the AC signal.
PS Audio uses Class D amplifiers to regenerate the output. Very expensive, very big and has switching noise on the output. Still, the benefits are a rock solid 120V +- about 1 Volt at all times as well as an unrivaled ability to deal with incoming AC noise and irregularities.
Balanced power supplys provide exactly 120 volts sinewaves at exactly 60 Hz output irrespective of wall outlet output.
I’m sorry @xenolith- but this is not necessarily true. Could you point me to an example?
I’m not ragging on balanced, but the technology involved in creating balanced power is a separate technology from voltage regulation. Balanced power is achieved very simply with a transformer with near 1:1 windings. Usually a little more like 1:1.1 to allow for losses under load.
This means the output voltage is always some ratio of input, and is therefore at the mercy of the input. BTW, the 220V you get from the power company is an example of balanced power. If you think balanced power always gives you a fixed voltage, well... there you go.
Now, you CAN do both voltage regulation AND balanced power conditioning, but that doesn’t mean balanced power is always regulated.
I installed a 20 amp dedicated circuit, a ZeroSurge 8R20W power conditioner, a hospital grade outlet, and a 10 gauge power cord. Also moved my router to a different circuit, farther away to avoid EMI. None of it made any difference that I could tell.
Sorry, the issue with the AR models is not just feet or no feet. You really need to allow for space to prevent magnetic coupling. However, I have literally placed these on the floor under my rack before with no issues. Just a small towel to prevent the screws from scratching.
@amtprod I do have space for that… good thought! Only problem is 4 new power cords required to work. Considering… Thanks
@mbarrett635 I hadn’t considered they had a smaller unit. You are correct. Be a shame to hide it behind my rack, more money than I wanted to spend, but will work. Thanks
Speaking of voltage regulation, any difference between this and this, other than $1,400? It seems 15A should mostly be enough for digital front end, if not all front end components.
Probably fine. Loads are constant therein not fluctuating like with a power amp playing high dynamic music.
Worth noting. When dealing with the available power from a wall outlet the amount of power available is not necessarily limited to the handle rating of the branch circuit breaker.
Using a 15A circuit, #14 gauge wire, for example... Most people seem to think the breaker will trip when it senses 15 amps of current passing through it. That is a false assumption. UL / NEMA states the breaker must trip at a sustained current of 20.25A, (135% at less than one hour). (15A x 135% = 20.25 amps.) At 30 amperes (200 percent of wire rating) in less than 120 seconds. (15A x 200% = 30 amps).
With quick fluctuating loads, at say 40 amps, the breaker may never trip at all if the load is only for a few hours or so.
So the branch circuit breaker will continue to pass the connected load current well above 15 amps, 1800W for a short sustained duration or quick short fluctuations of current draw. Does VD, Voltage Drop, increase if the branch circuit wiring is #14 gauge and the connected load is over 15 amp? Yes, but how much VD depends on the length of the #14 gauge wire X 2. If the branch circuit wire is #12 gauge the VD is less. #10 gauge even less.
I guess the point I am trying to make is, how well will a 15 amp, 1800W, rated power conditioner available power hold up to the availability power at the wall outlet branch circuit wiring fed from the electrical panel. (Electrical panel... A whole lot of available power.) The wall outlet will delivery well beyond 1800 watts for short intervals of current draw in time. What is the power head room, Service Factor, for short durations of overloading the power conditioner? Maybe 10%? 20%? Maybe 30%? I doubt it.
@erik_squiresAaahhhh I -KNEW IT-!!! I guess one thing that could also be done is placing it vertically. In my case, I could easily cut a block of wood to 'fill' the rack ear, and simply mount it vertically OUTSIDE the wood low-boy cabinet the equipment is in.(There would be a good 1 foot+ from it, to the nearest piece of gear)
Maybe the OP @signaforcecould do the same? Vertically?
Unfortunate. It appears all the Furman AR’s are designed to be rack mounted with no feet. I thought I could stack the 1800 AR model on my AVR by adding feet (alleviating my space issues), but apparently not.
The 2400 AR (20A) rack ears are not even removable adding 2” further I would have to move my rack from the wall if I put it behind.
Back to the drawing board. Any other brands that have voltage regulation?
@amtprod - I would 100% avoid putting it near other linear piece of gear, like an amp or preamp, etc. Keep at least 4" above and below to ensure the magnetic field doesn’t couple to something else, maybe more. It IS safe to put directly on the floor though, maybe with a towel to avoid screws from scratching.
I should also warn you that these sometimes do develop some mechanical hum.
@erik_squiresGREAT info, as always!!!
The OP mentioned early that he has limited space for additional pieces of kit. I have a similar issue with space. The Furman unit you recommended (one you have always stood by and recommened before to others), is a 'rack mount' style. Since it has "AR" and a sizable transformer, is it an issue to set it ontop of another piece of gear, or under another piece of gear with "normal" feet stand offs? Meaning, 'stacking' but NOT in a rack?
I would imagine no due to magnetic induction issues in either or both? Is that correct? Assuming would need at least 5inches of space top and bottom?
Great thread and info!!!
@jea48- I actually have four 20A dedicated lines powering my system.
One circuit located in a separate room away from my system that is dedicated to my internet modem, router, music server, and associated peripherals
One circuit powering the digital front end equipment in my system room, including peripherals, with all power cords coming from an Isoclean 60A3 II filter
One circuit powering my passive volume control (with display/remote) and SMc Audio unity-gain buffer, each of which have their own outboard linear power supplies plugged into the wall, and
One for my SMc 650wpc monoblock amplifiers also plugged into the wall. I recently replaced the 10A SR input fuses in those amps with copper rods and incorporated in-line magnetic circuit breakers provided by SMc Audio, and as they began using in their equipment shortly after they completed my amps in 2020 (see 2nd and 3rd pics on my system page).
I don't perceive any noise issues whatsoever but was curious about the potential effect of voltage fluctuations, primarily on my front-end equipment.
Speaking of voltage regulation, any difference between this and this, other than $1,400? It seems 15A should mostly be enough for digital front end, if not all front end components.
@mitch2
No, these units go on steep discounts routinely. Sometimes on Amazon, sometimes at Pro oriented stores so worth keeping an eye on them. You are correct that 15A (1800 VA) is basically overkill for most home systems.
Furman makes so many models that it’s always good to check the specific feature set with Furman. The basic features you want are:
SMP (series mode protection)
LiFT (linear filtering)
EVS (Extreme Voltage Shutdown)
Usually those three come as a package in their pro or consumer models. These are some consumer oriented features:
Power Factor correction
Balanced outputs
Switched outlets
So for me, SMP, LiFT, EVS and AR are features I really insist on having. The AR (automatic regulation) is the expensive part. Like balanced power, it takes a big internal transformer to work so adds a few hundred dollars to the price tag compared to say the basic Furman strip without.
Furman DOES make an almost pure regulator without SMP, LiFT and EVS but more LEDs (HAH!) but uses old-school surge protection. The only advantage of that unit is that the LEDs constantly show you the incoming voltage.
Always funny how this place just forces us all to spend 3-5x the cost of what we are thinking. Come in thinking one thing, come out thinking very different.
Asking about a power conditioner, now we are doing a couple dedicated circuits! Think I need to check my HT outlets, have a feeling they are all backstabbed. But did replace a couple outlets with cheap audio grade ones.
My HT system has a Panamax PC, has both voltage and amp gauges on it. Everything is plugged into it. Voltage is usually 122v, depending on what I'm watching, 1.6-3.5a this is a 9.4.2 atmosphere setup, with a 80in TV, and an Xbox.
My 2ch has a Furman 15i, just with voltage gauge. My 2ch voltage goes from 115-124v, usually around 122. I can drop the voltage when listing at high levels. Also found out, that they hooked up the microwave to the living room outlets! When the microwave kicks in, voltage drops to 115v. I know that needs to be fixed. Also thinking abut 2 dedicated outlets.
Here is my point. On the HT side the PC really helps, picture is better, and sound is better when plugged into it. Almost everything there is digital. On the 2ch setup, the sound is cleaner with the PC, have plugged the sub and amp directly into the wall, and the PC. Could not tell a sonic difference. Also can not hear a difference when the microwave is turned on. This tells me the Furman is making a difference for the better. The 2ch setup is vintage, I use the Furman to power it all on/off instead of using the components power switches.
One question I do have abut dedicated circuits, is it worth the extra money to get magnetic breakers over the cheap other ones?
There is a very good chance that digital front end equipment already has voltage regulators on the DC power side of the equipment. Good chance that holds true on at least solid state preamps. Maybe even for tube preamps.
As for digital equipment the question is, does the equipment have filtering on the AC mains side that will filter out, prevent, digital hash from traveling back out on the power cord and re-interring on the power cords of an analog preamp and power amp that are plugged into a common power strip.? Even if the amp is plugged directly into the same wall outlet, same branch circuit, as the power strip.
There was a well respected EE, his field was in electronics, that passed many years ago. He frequently posted on the AA forum. I remember he used to say the main reason, (paraphrasing what he said), for multiple dedicated branch circuits is to decouple the power supplies of digital equipment from analog equipment.
That’s why I installed two dedicated 20A branch circuits. One for digital equipment, the other for analog.
If you are gonna spend good money on power conditioning, get a good warranty, then use it to see if you have an improvement in SQ. If not, well, lots of us haven't been able to tell the difference.
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