ABX testing with AQ Dragon power cords

@dwcda so…any additional listening with components direct to wall?

Yes, but only with the Dragons. I'm returning them on Tuesday so I plan to listen to them for 2 days and then swap back for a couple.

One other thing I forgot to mention is to make note of volume level for each of the tracks you use in the evaluation so that you can match it when switching back. 

I guess that’s why blind comparisons are better.

Maybe in cases where people are inexperienced and/or can’t be objective or trust their own ears.

@dwcda 

The front edge of the speaker is 4' from the wall. I've tried other positions and this was the best for me. There is a 7" monster bass trap behind each speaker and a 17" square soffit trap in the corner. The soundstage is great.

When you spend that kind of money does the dealer not set this system up for you? 

Your system (and setup) from the photo looks great!  I bet it's a very enjoyable listen.

I'm of the mind that cables can make a difference, but it is a very subtle one at best, regardless of price paid.  Having said this, I've never paid tens of thousands of dollars on cables. And I doubt my system would be resolving enough, anyway.  

Or maybe I just don't listen to music in such a way that the differences matter much. Or my hearing maybe sucks.   I don't hear a lot of what folks around here are able to hear.

Some people claim they can tell the brand of salt used in a stew.  I can't.

A lady I work with says she can smell the smoke coming from a person who had a cigarrette hours earlier outside.  Not the smell of smoke on a person's clothing or breath, but from the residual smoke remaining in a smoker's lungs.  I can't.

Long-winded way of saying maybe some peoples' hearing are more attuned to hearing the differences, while others, like me, aren't.

Not when it's a 5 hour drive to your house from the store. Initially he said he would come when the equipment arrived but through our discussions he asked if I was ok to set it up. There was a local rep for Pure Fidelity that came out to set up the turntable.

You are biased to never hear a difference, so you won’t

If that were the case, blind A/B testing would still prove the truth, because both cable enthusiasts and cable deniers are tested. Blind A/B testing proves that cables make no difference. Especially power cables.

There is a clear lack of understanding of what confirmation bias is and when it does or could apply.

We all know what confirmation bias is, it’s a very simple concept, this is an Ad Hominem attack and unworthy of a polite debate.

New troll says what?

@dwcda

Thank you for sharing your story/photos we appreciate your courage and honesty.

I have a power cable that i bought on Amazon and I like it a lot not because it pleases my ears (compared with the stock) but pleases my eyes. Only paid 35 instead of 3500. Oh and there are many paid trolls aka influencers trying to mislead viewers on this forum. You’ve probably recognized them already

Ha, it takes no courage to anonymously discuss an experience with strangers. Audphile1 began a little rough but came around and offered some helpful info in the end. I appreciate comments from all, those who agree with me and those who don’t. I try to learn something from all.

I plan to try a PS Audio P12 for a bit as the power where I live is known to be noisy and prone to brownouts and surges.

I went to Hans Looman’s house (owner of Infigo) on Friday to return his cables and compare his/mine on his system. All he has going is a streamer, DAC, a pair of the monos that he produces (Method 3 I believe) and some Dutch speakers whose name I forget. We swapped his XLRs for mine back and forth a few times and then swapped his speaker wires for mine. He could hear a difference each time but I didn’t. Then we listened to the same song (Uninvited Alanis Morissette) with his speaker and XLR cables and at that point I could hear a much larger presence to the music. I don’t know all of the adjectives that people use to describe music but it definitely sounded better. Not a huge and alarming difference but the kind of thing that once you feel it (as the main difference was the feeling of the bass in my chest) you want to feel it again. So I plan to get the P12 and continue experimenting.

Hans’s monos cost $55k US a pair I think and sound amazing.

Not a huge and alarming difference but the kind of thing that once you feel it (as the main difference was the feeling of the bass in my chest) you want to feel it again.

That’s a really good way to put it with regard to cables.  The differences or improvements don’t often bowl you over in magnitude like speakers can, but once you hear them they’re meaningful and always there and you don’t really wanna be without them anymore. 

I will never understand why people get so heated. The OP tried a product and didn’t connect with it. 

This whole hobby is a luxury. And a hobby. You should connect with any piece you buy. It’s that simple. OP shouldn’t discredit others when they connect, and no one should try to discredit the OP for not connecting. 

If one man’s experience impacts your experience, you are going to have trouble enjoying life. 

@dwcda 

Ha, it takes no courage to anonymously discuss an experience with strangers. Audphile1 began a little rough but came around and offered some helpful info in the end. I appreciate comments from all, those who agree with me and those who don’t. I try to learn something from all.

Honestly, I totally understand how @audphile1 reacted. The way the first post came across and read, it does kind of look like a plant. Please keep in mind there are plenty of flat-earthers who have a fixed belief system, some have posted inthis thread already, and those who just like to stir things up to feed their craving for controversy. And then when viewers see how little posts you have here it looks even more likely to be a plant. 

I almost didn't read beyond the first few sentences, and I am sure many others did not, but I continued on, and then I believed this is a schill for a different cable company. I have now come to the conclusion you are legit. 😉

PM sent. 

@soix 

New troll says what?

You skipped all the levels and went straight to the name calling layer of the triangle.

You skipped all the levels and went straight to the name calling layer of the triangle.

@skeptikal Well now sometimes the name just fits so why waste time?

 

 

skeptikal

10 posts

05-18-2024 at 09:01pm

The electricity came from a long way off, how is the last couple of feet going to matter? In any case, the first thing an electronic unit does is convert the AC to DC, so it doesn’t matter how pure the AC signal is. But such arguments are pointless with these people, because you can’t use logic and evidence to convince someone who never used logic and evidence to begin with.

there are two things that are taking place here

1. demonstrating lack of experience
2. Ad Hominem - labeling everyone who doesn’t share your beliefs as lacking logic, intelligence and common sense (done without any experience to back it up…going straight to assault)

So please…expect to be treated like you treat others. You’re a theorist. Keep theorizing. Share your opinion when you have a real system and some actual experience. Until then go give Amir a foot massage.

As it turns out the OP and I live nearby, relatively speaking. I am going over to visit his nice hi fi room this weekend with some of my equipment. We will swap around some gear and some cables and see what our ears tell us. Stay tuned. 

Happy with both my AQ thunder and wireworld strata and Electra power cables 

@mclinnguy alright! I’m holding my breath :)

@audphile1

There's nothing lacking with my experience or my system.  But I should not have said that bit about pointless arguments.  For that I apologize.

Wow, what a stunning system in a fantastic room the OP has.  Too bad this thread went off the rails, but as many others have posted, if you don't hear a difference, stick with your excellent Mogami cables.  Good for you to try different wire.  I wish wire didn't make  a difference, but often it does.  

I have a Don Sachs Raven preamp and his 300b monos, which both have balanced circuitry end to end.  I was connecting the two components with decent Black Ice XLR cables until Paul Speltz sent me his new top of the line XLR cables for an audition -- which Don Sachs uses in his system,  and I was utterly blown away with the improvement in the SQ, instantly revealed.  I have swapped cables for years and this was a real "ah ha" moment placing these XLR cables in my system.  Never ever in my audio experience has a cable provided so much clarity to the sound of my system.  The point is that you don't know what you are missing if you don't try different cables, because some can make a huge difference.  BUT, don't lament not hearing a difference when you swap cables... it might mean that your existing cables are revealing enough.  Be wary of dealers that over promise and under deliver.  

The OP's claim certainly serves an important social function: It reassures non-believers that they don't have to spend money on expensive cables :-) Unfortunately, in my system cables do make a difference, especially power cords... But a friend of mine has a system based on vintage Tannoys, he tried hard to upgrade his system with upmarket cables - all in vain, so perhaps it is system dependent.... However, OP's system does not look like that at all. 

 @serblinfan 

But a friend of mine has a system based on vintage Tannoys, he tried hard to upgrade his system with upmarket cables - all in vain, so perhaps it is system dependent....

Hmm, I happen to know a fellow here @lalitk with Tannoys who has done a little cable swapping, perhaps he would like to chime in? 

In a way, this is kind of amusing.  

Many chide naysayers as their perception is not universal and get angry if they say we cannot hear what we hear.  Seems like some of these same people are a bit incredulous because the OP didn’t perceive/hear as believers expected- kind of like hypocrisy.  

Btw, I returned the Dragons yesterday via Canada Post... same way I shipped back the Transparent cables. I'm not going to accept any more free trials as the cost of shipping & insurance is too much. So far it's cost me $350 Cdn mainly because of the insurance. And at that I'm only able to insure up to  $5,000. 

@mclinnguy

Thanks for the mention. It comes down to choice of components in one’s system whether they can hear a difference with cables or tweaks. And then there is room acoustics which plays a huge part in discerning nuances. IME, McIntosh components has a very neutral (cold) sound….no offense to MAC owners. Just connect them with well made copper cable loom and you’re good to go.

Since OP is in Canada, I recommend trying cables from Audio Sensibility. 

How’s the new speaker placement working out so far?  Any thoughts/impressions?

It's working out fine. I've toed them out a touch and moved them a bit closer to the wall, still about 52" from the wall to center of the speaker.

 

dwcda OP

53 posts

05-22-2024 at 12:41pm

Btw, I returned the Dragons yesterday via Canada Post... same way I shipped back the Transparent cables. I’m not going to accept any more free trials as the cost of shipping & insurance is too much. So far it’s cost me $350 Cdn mainly because of the insurance. And at that I’m only able to insure up to $5,000.

still no difference then or there is a difference but just not worth the dough?

None that I could hear. I've been told that it's because of my shitty construction grade outlet.

Nope. Outlets make a difference but even with a $3 outlet I could tell a good power cord from a stock one. Upgraded outlets don’t enhance these differences.
I have two furutech gtx-d ncf outlets. If you don’t hear the difference between stock cord and the AQ Dragon, don’t bother with outlets. And only buy the ps audio regenerator if you can return it. You have a tin ear. And to hear the differences you would need a change of a component such as amp, preamp and speakers. Something drastic. I even doubt you would tell DACs apart but that’s something I wouldn’t bet on. 

Boy the gatekeeping on this cables topic is intense.

See what @mclinnguy ’s visit if it happens brings to the table 

@ditusa 

I agree! In my opinion, addressing the AC mains power coming in the home and the wiring in-wall is more important. All-wiring and grounding from the electrical pole to the audio equipment matters. 😎

See article here!

Mike

Interesting article, thanks for sharing.  Are you by chance a EE or electrician?

@redlenses03 Wrote:

Interesting article, thanks for sharing. 

You're welcome!

Are you by chance a EE or electrician?

No. I am a general building contractor, I do frequently speak to electricians and electrical engineers to try and gain some insight on the two disciplines. With that said, audio has been my hobby for over fifty years. If you're interested, I found this article about power line noise to be educational. See here. 😎

Mike

@ditusa Thanks, I'll check it out. 

I've thought about getting dedicated circuits, just haven't found the time to take an in depth look into it.  Also, not sure about how to find a quality electrician etc..

When looking for advice about the necessity of having clean power running into my system I navigate towards those who have the knowledge and design expertise to explain the concept cogently. 

He wouldn't be one of those people to listen to.  I know, I have tested his product and it makes absolutely no difference in audio performance:

Video version:

After explaining that my testing has shown no cable to make a difference in an audio system to a dealer I know, he challenged his AudioQuest distributor to see if he could tell the difference blind.  The distributor was shocked when he failed the test.  What is "obvious" in sighted, uncontrolled testing is not any kind of truth.  Do as OP has done and test without knowledge and only using your ears.  If your ears fail to validate a difference, then that should be it.  Right?

Honestly I know someone who  has a system that won’t improve on any cable . My friend who mentor me brought his old Audioquest dragon speaker cable, and diamond ic, no change in sound , I believe the OP it can happen.

I own Hurricane, thunder , tornado Audioquest pc they did improve my system.So every system is different.

There is such a great opportunity for cable manufacturers to demonstrate that their products make a difference by showing how they result in measurable signal changes for DACs, streamers, amps, AVRs, subs, etc. This doesn't even require ABX testing but just measurements/nulling with verification from 3rd parties.

It would be a game changer that would reset the discussion from subjective opinions crowded by biases to believable outcomes! What a great opportunity that would have enormous marketing consequences to their business models.

I (still) look forward to reading those reports.

@amir_asr 

Yes, of course you're right. You're always right.

Yes, of course you're right. You're always right.

It is easy to be "right" when simple matters of electronic design are misunderstood.  The notion that a piece of audio gear needs a specific power cord to sound well means that the device is broken.  Not that there is merit in said cord.  And that is if you can, with ears alone, tell the difference.  In absence of that, you have to go by the simple fact that every piece of audio gear assumes dirty power coming in.  That power is converted to DC and in the process, heavily filtered.  That leaves nothing for the power cord to do than deliver the required current.  This is why measurements show no difference with any of these power tweaks.  They can't affect a change.  Here is a short 5 minute video related to this:

@amir_asr 

"by the simple fact that every piece of audio gear assumes dirty power coming in.  That power is converted to DC and in the process, heavily filtered.  That leaves nothing for the power cord to do than deliver the required current.This is why measurements show no difference with any of these power tweaks."

Absolutely true!! An EMI filter is placed at the power entry of point of the audio equipment so filtration through the x/y capacitors/common mode choke EMI combined with galvanic isolation of the transformer should be able to eliminate unwanted signal noise completely. That's why you don't need any power conditioner either to condition the power line from the wall. Stupidly expensive power cables/conditioners are a good example of this so called S.O. industry. Thank you Amir I love your Youtube channel and ASR.com

Very insightful.  Why shouldn't you be thoroughly believed.  The proof is in the pudding!!!  Either there's a discernible difference or there's not.  No rocket science involved here.  Hopefully, the AQ dealer will give an unbiased assessment, as well.  I use AQ Hurricane HC PC on my power conditioner, an AQ Firebird Source PC on my DAC and AQ Thunderbird XLR interconnects in my system and they sound superb.  I also use an JPS Labs Aluminata PC on my integrated amp and Shunyata Research Sigma ethernet cables.  The mix of different brands of cables in my system makes for an incredible sound.  However, I must admit, I'm now very curious about Mogami cables.

@classicrockfan Yes, I do have some Audioquest cables in my audio system and I do love them all. However, I have no idea how I could’ve given anyone the impression that I was an AQ dealer. I think you were just being facetious. At any rate, about 20 years ago or so, my very first attempt at high end audio cables were a pair of entry level AQ Midnight speaker cables, which were big-time cables for me, a novice audiophile at the time. The AQ midnight speaker cables totally blew me away at the time. Not too long after that, I had no AQ in my audio systems for a number of years, until just about 3 years ago when I began buying AQ cable again. I love AQ cables. I also love cables from other brands as well. That’s why I currently use three different brands of cables in my audio system with superb results. "Some rich guy?" Not hardly. "Influencer?" Perhaps. Happy listening

That post was deleted already (by me) anyways you made it clear that you're not an AQ dealer nor a rich person... 'perhaps' an influencer. Thanks for being honest and direct. Since you love their cables (nothing wrong with that) I have a question for you. We both know AQ is a cable reseller not a manufacturer that has their own cable manufacturing facility. Where do they get their cables from? I can only guess...