Matt,
A big attraction to your thread is the honesty, don't change that, continue to call it as you hear it. A friend of mine who has heard many DACs described the EmmLabs just as you, he didn't care for it. Everyone has an opinion about something, some love this and others love that. Matt just do your thing and continue to enjoy the experience.
Charles, |
Matt, you have nothing at all to apologize for since you made your intentions very clear. You have been up front about your specific situation and objectives (i.e. only being interested in a DAC's 16bit/44kHz performance.) Your efforts are still very helpful to many of us and appreciated. Keep up the good work and glad to hear that you're still enjoying the process. Sometimes such evaluations can become tedious and less than enjoyable for many of us with less patience than you obviously have. |
AGear - Thank you for your input. I am, by no means, a professional reviewer and appreciate your six moons quote as it better describes the MA1 in a more objective description then my own. If you could maybe provide some links to professional reviews for the gear I am auditioning it would be appreciated and helpful to the group at large. I have neither the trained ears, acoustically corrected room, expansive vocabulary nor elocution to properly review gear in the objective manor in which the pros can do it.
As I said when I started, I am simply saying it like I hear it with no bias other then what sounds best to me, in my room, with my ears. What I heard from the MA1 lacked emotion as compared to the Aeris and OverDrive. It did not engage me the way the other 2 did; I spent more time analyzing and less time lost in the music. To me it was not simply a matter of bright or dark, nor analytical vs slurred. I think in a different system and a different room it would shine, but not mine. I would also imagine that for a reviewer it would be an ideal DAC as it is miraculously accurate in both it's soundstage, imaging and reproduction of tone.
My apologies to all for the limitations in my room, my ears and my ability to objectively convey what I hear with the gifts of a reviewer. As Popeye said, " I ams what I ams...."
But I'm getting closer to my objective and having a damn good time doing it, and talking with some really good audio guys along the way like my new friend AGear, Charles1dad, Merrill, Audiolabyrnth, Steve, Guido and 2 dozen other guys. Isn't Tay what it's really all about? |
Brightness is of course subjective, however there are some key things in a DAC design that can cause this perception:
1) out of balance dynamic response
This occurs when the power subsystem cannot respond exactly the same speed to a low-frequency transient as a high-frequency transient. Low frequency transients require power reserves. High-frequency transients require fast regulation and low ESR decoupling caps. Even though the DAC measures perfect for frequency response, the dynamic response can be and usually is out of kilter. It requires both excellent voltage regulators as well as optimum mixes and locations of decoupling caps to achieve the correct balance.
2) Compression
Compression is when the active stages, whether discrete, op-amps or tubes cannot react linearly under all circumstances. Circumstances such as high energy bass, high-level signals or fast transients can sometimes push active stages too far and they cannot react linearly. They may behave differently when amplifying low-level signals versus high-level signals. Local heating in integrated circuits or current sharing in the on-die power distribution can cause this. Power supply and decoupling can also play a role. Reflections of significant power back to the output driver can cause it to go non-linear (see #3).
3) insufficient output drive or reflections
The output drive must have low-impedance. It must behave the same when driving difficult loads and easy loads. However, like a high-Q cable, a low output impedance and fast slew-rate has its downside: It must be critically damped for HF reflections. Many DACs do not have any termination and this can cause harshness at the leading edges due to HF reflections. Even though reflections are an RF or digital phenomena, these can occur on the output cable. The question is whether these affect the behavior of the output driver or not. It is best to put a treatment there to address this IME.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Guido - the Final Drive is only for analog outputs, not AES/EBU or S/PDIF inputs.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
" I know Steve Nugent made the comment that Rowland has a darker tinge to it"
Actually, I was talking about Mark Levinson. I have had Rowland, ML and Pass Labs preamps in the house. None of them lit my fire. Like most components, I needed to mod them and even then, not spectacular. These were older models though. Some of these guys have learned some lessons I think.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"Steve (Empirical Audio), is it safe to say your Final Drive is virtually a Music First or Bent TAP-X without a volume control?"
Essentially yes, except for the transformer quality. I have an all-silver Music First and the FD beats it hands-down. The FD is in two chassis on purpose, so the fields do not interact. I use better switches than the MF. The MF also has some strange wiring in it, different for left and right channels on grounding...
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Hi Matt, you are right... While Criterion is far from being a "bright" pre, it does not share the slightly dark golden house sound of classic Rowland products from the 1990s and the earlier part of the 200X decade... Fact is that, with some exceptions, the "dark Rowland sound" is becoming a bit of a charming urban legend.
On the other hand, I expect that Aeris's juvenile exhuberance in the treble region should start to be reabsorbed once you pass the 450 hours mark.
Concerning Final Drive and its transformer coupling... It is worth pointing out that both Aeris and Criterion have trnsformer-coupled balanced I/O... on Aeris transformer-coupled input is the SPDIF 75 Ohm coaxial. Conversely, Veritas inputs are not transformer coupled as far as I know. G. |
In fact, the Aeris is currently a bit bright if anything. Bright as compared to what? I based my thoughts on your response to the MA-1 in particular. That is not typically perceived as a overly bright or hyper detailed dac but can reveal crappy Redbook files for what they are: File density. Primarily, increased data density seems to net greater ambient retrieval. Space appears. With it the venue acoustics turn 'wetter'. Minuscule reverb interactions come more to the fore as performer auras. Reducing file density from 24/192 to 16/44 dries out the apparent acoustics. This puts the focus on just the performers. It eliminates much contextual data which previously interfaced the performers with the physical space in which they performed. It's quite similar to overdamping a room. Lower resolution mirrors higher damping and how too much absorption progressively kills off not just room reflections but also the musical charge or energy of the playback. In that sense hi-rez isn't about more primary stuff. It's about more secondary and tertiary stuff. Short hand might call that a lot more audible space.
A parallel perception is of greater fluidity. Lower resolution appears stiffer and starker. As resolution increases, more nuanced microdynamics flow into this feel. That greater differentiation of micro swings translates into more ebb and flow, into greater inner motion and from there into greater listener e-motion. Finally treble performance becomes more sophisticated particularly with as revealing a tweeter as the Raal ribbon in my Aries Cerat Gladius speaker. But the most profound benefit from higher resolution—at least to my ears—really is the superior ambient recovery or dimensional context.
DSD vs. PCM. The dsf/dff files compared directly to their PCM equivalents all exhibited the same slightly sweet slightly soft texture. As perhaps a deeply PCM-engrained listener who couldn't make the quick transition, I soon related to this as an admittedly pleasing but nonetheless minor coloration. Sharing this with Morton, his terse reply was comforting. Exactly my experience. There's a kind of Hollywood soft focus to DSD. Those who concur to prefer high-resolution PCM (someone could acknowledge this DSD effect but be partial to it*1) might refocus from streaming DSD to playing back PCM at up to 24/352. Sixmoons Thus the need for a slightly softer SS or tubed dac particularly in light of your room and primary source material. |
My Criterion and the Aeris are far from dark. The Criterion is toneless. The Capri S2 has a bit of a dark tinge, but the Criterion is not remotely dark, nor is the Aeris. In fact, the Aeris is currently a bit bright if anything. I just don't want your statement to confuse the readers. The Aeris and Criterion are not the old Rowland house sound.
That said, of course my room acoustics are going to have an affect on the sound and my equipment selection. That's why I felt it necessary to describe the room. It's not over the top bright though.
I will try to run direct Wed and report my findings. The Direct Stream is due in tomorrow. I will report first impressions of that as well if I have time. |
Thanks for this thread and the pictures of your system, that helps as well
Enjoy this Dac journey |
My room is NOT the ideal acoustic environment. There are a lot of reflective surfaces and an audible slap echo. At his urging, I am going to broach the idea with my Wife of maybe some subtle acoustic treatments to improve on the room a bit. Don't get me wrong, its not horrific, but it is evident. The system still sounds stunning, but could certainly sound better with some treatments. Since the room is on the bright side, my decision as to synergy and what sounds best in my room are certainly affected by these factors. Amazing how that factors into your decision making. If you remain in your current room, tubes and/or darker sounding SS should be the ticket. I know Steve Nugent made the comment that Rowland has a darker tinge to it, but given the state of things in digital, that is not necessarily a bad thing. I owned the ASR Emitter I blue exclusive (2006 vintage) for a bit, and I enjoyed the darker, slightly bottom heavy sound. |
Mattnshilp, enjoy your father's day and ignore as much of the pressure on you as you can. Incidentally, I hope you are enjoying your listening experiences. |
Happy Fathers Day to all you Dads!!
May your day be filled with wonderful family and beautiful music!! |
Have you tried the Final Drive yet with the preamp? Steve (Empirical Audio), is it safe to say your Final Drive is virtually a Music First or Bent TAP-X without a volume control? |
|
"I asked and Steve told me that he sells about 10 OD's a year."
I guess if you're only selling 10 units/year, you need to use these forums to drum up business.;-) |
Pokey77,
You are right, pleasing everyone is impossible and a fruitless endeavor. 5 different listeners with the same array of DACs would likely result in 5 lists, all with varying top to bottom rankings. Matt I appreciate your time and considerable efforts. You'll end up with what you like best for your system (the objective). This has been a fun thread to follow.
Charles, |
Matt,
I've been following this thread since the beginning. Let me just say "thank you" for your very well written comments and thoughtful insights. Though you may not be able to please everyone participating in this thread, you are very well on your way to an amazing system that will speak to all your needs. Bravo |
Hi Mattnshilp,
First of all thanks for great thread!
Is there any chance for comparison of MA-1 against Aires and Lampi and PS DirectStream when it arrives?
Cheers,
seb |
I love reading this thread! So much fun to read everyday. I don't want to miss anything.
Thanks for doing such a good job Matt. |
Hi Matt, I talked to steve N. over this week, The final drives are a great accomplishment by steve, However, though you can use them on the active pre-amps, steve said you can also use the final drives on the dacs, or cd-players that have a volume control on them, I would bet you money, If you put the final drives on the Aeris, or ODSE, or any of the dacs that you have that has a volume control versus, just your prized Roland active pre-amp by its self, you would likly sale the Pre-amp!, LOL!, after I talked to steve, I am interested in his final drives to use with source componets direct to amps, being the final drives are a true Balanced circuit,and passive, not needing any power from the wall, and the fact they break the ground plane, It's a win-win situation! |
Lol. I was actually going to break out the Final Drives today but Merrill came over.
With the Aeris 400h away from ready and the DirectStream also 2 weeks minimum from ready (after it arrives Tuesday), the next thing up is a comparison of DAC direct to amps vs using the Final Drives.
Watch for the next UPDATE.
Thanks for the room treatment suggestions. I have to see what the boss will approve, if anything. |
Time to try direct to amps with all of the DACs. How about this weekend?
Have you tried the Final Drive yet with the preamp?
BTW, here is what I would recommend for room treatments:
1) to eliminate HF sidewall reflections, put Sonex panels, 3'X5' on the spots where you see the tweeters when putting a small mirror on the wall and looking from the listening position. If these do not pass the WAF, then look to absorbing panels from GIK acoustics with graphics on them. I have some of these as well with a nice Fender guitar printed on it:
http://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-artpanel-acoustic-panels/
2) get two ASC 1/4 round tubetraps, as tall as your tweeters:
http://www.acousticsciences.com/products/tube-traps
Place these just behind your speakers (2" behind) with the inside curved surface faced inward. Start with the flat surface parallel and in line with the speaker inner facing side. Then "tune" by rotating the left one counter-clockwise and the right one clockwise. At some point you will get razor-sharp focus, but too much rotation will compromise the width of the soundstage. Rotate them back until you have just the right mix of width beyond the speakers edges and sharp focus of the vocalist in the center. If you have a reflective surface like a TV screen, these will eliminate the effect of it by scattering the back-wave from the speakers. This is a very effective treatment for both imaging and bass that I have used at shows and at home for years.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
UPDATE:
Yay! I finally had a visitor to help with my auditioning. Merrill of Merrill Audio joined me for the Meitner MA1 comparison.
He pointed out something that I mentioned in my Virtual System and Agear touched on many pages back, but MUST be reiterated. My room is NOT the ideal acoustic environment. There are a lot of reflective surfaces and an audible slap echo. At his urging, I am going to broach the idea with my Wife of maybe some subtle acoustic treatments to improve on the room a bit. Don't get me wrong, its not horrific, but it is evident. The system still sounds stunning, but could certainly sound better with some treatments. Since the room is on the bright side, my decision as to synergy and what sounds best in my room are certainly affected by these factors. Just an FYI in an effort to be totally open.
I invited him to join this thread to give his own opinions. He uses Sanders electrostats driven by all his own gear, and his MA1. His system sounds wonderful, but totally different from mine….
OK. The Meitner….
The MA1 is the definition of everything you need and NOTHING you don't. It is an industrial, very meticulously built box with simple front input selection and some red lights to show what sampling rate is playing. Obviously built with thought in mind, but no interest in making it fancy or physically enticing in any way. It is solid and very well constructed, clearly with thoughts of vibration dampening and shielding. It's goal is to sound good. The back is well laid out and designed. With a standard footprint, there is plenty of room in back. The PC socket was a teeny weeny bit wiggly, which surprised me. And the power switch was just above the PC connector, and was partially buried with my bigger Shunyata plug. If Lampy started to make all metal housings, I would expect them to look very similar.
It linked right up with the Mac as the others have. Asynchronous is a beautiful thing! It does do DSD and all things PCM.
Sound - The MA1 brings everything up front and personal. Very accurate, very meticulous and extended up top. The lower end didn't go down as low as the ODSE, but it controlled what it had a tad better. I find the bass response of the ODSE to be quite pleasing and natural. It's sort of like it has a loose grip on the snake to prevent it from getting out of hand as opposed to locking the snake in a vise and forcing it to move the way you want it to. Soundstage was not as 3 dimensional as the ODSE in any of the 3 planes, but imaging was laser point accurate. The ODSE is a bit more laid back (which to me was more pleasing) while the MA1 hands you everything on a silver platter. The MA1 has dynamics to spare and can handle those transients very well. The ODSE can as well, but it is not as lightning quick as the MA1. The notes are there and the music is there, but the MA1 didn't get my toes tapping the way the ODSE did.
To be frank, I unquestionably preferred the ODSE over the MA1 on every track on my list. I found it more engaging, more emotional and more musical.
Merrill felt that the MA1 was more accurate and more revealing, which are qualities he obviously values along with those flat plane electrostats. He also appreciated the grip that the MA1 had on the lower frequencies, and preferred that to the slightly less grip but lower extension of the ODSE. I will let him add any other points if he joins us on this thread. He said that one of the things the MA1 update will provide is better low frequency extension.
Merrill said that, in my room, he would chose the ODSE over the MA1. In his system and his room he thinks he would prefer the MA1. I think I would still prefer the ODSE, it's just more my taste.
We did connect the Aeris, now with about 280-290 hours on it. I feel the same way about it; it has potential and is getting closer, but is still young. It's wonderful, layered, goes deep and holds on tight, sound stages well and just makes music. Merrill didn't say it, but I think he didn't like it. He acknowledged that listening before its fully burned in is not fair and agreed that another 300-400 hours could make a huge difference. It sounds like an excuse, but I just don't want to pass judgement until its got at least 700 hours on it. I can hear and feel that there's something special there, waiting to emerge when it breaks from it's cocoon. Merrill felt that for the money, and in my room, the ODSE was the best choice of the 3. Currently, I agree. I think he was impressed by the ODSE. I know I am.
In a tube systen, I would have chosen the MA1 over the ODSE. Especially with tube amp AND pre-amp. But in my room the MA1 goes and the ODSE survives to fight another day.
Steve has agreed to let me hold onto the ODSE until the Aeris has 700+ hours on it, which is very generous.
Merrill took his MA1 back. He will update it when the update comes out and let me know if he thinks the change is worthwhile bringing it back for a second try.
Merrill LOVED my speakers and how they sound with his amplifiers. He didn't say it, but I think he was surprised at how transparent the Criterion pre-amp was compared to other Rowland pre-amps, which have more of the Rowland house sound. The Criterion is truly a musical window to the upstream and downstream gear. To be honest, its the first time I had anyone with a trained ear listen to my system (besides me) and I was very nervous!!!
Erik - I promise I will put at least 2 weeks on the DS before I try her out. That will be about 336 hours. I need to find another way to burn it in though, because I don't want to lose time burning in the Aeris while cooking the PS Audio. That's why I was happy to hear PS Audio was willing to burn it in before they sent it to me. Oh well…. Necessity is the mother of invention!
'fin |
Hi Matt.. Too bad PSA didn't burn your Dac in for you.. 200 hours is when it really starts to develop.. 500 it's there.. What ever you do don't make a decision on it with less than 100.. |
Ok. I just went through my playlist and cut down to 23 songs. I think that will be more manageable. I tried to remove more, but I want a broad selection of genres and I need one or 2 really well and really badly recorded pieces to see how the DAC handles those.
Thank you, Kana, for motivating me to do that!! |
Kana - yes, I saw that. Thank you.
I currently have the Lampizator Big6 (which is actually sold, just waiting for check to clear), Aeris, EA OverDrive, Meitner MA-1 and my old PSA PW2 in my room. The DirectStream is arriving Monday and the Aesthetix Romulus is incoming whenever it's ready and available. I will try to find a dealer who would lend me a well burned in Alpha Ref. If anyone knows of one, please let me know. I'm happy to listen if you, or anyone else, can arrange getting one to me.
I'm doing my best, but since I try to REALLY listen to each unit, each comparison takes a LOT of time. My current protocol is to listen to my 33 song playlist on each of 2 DAC's; and then repeat the same thing a few days later, listening to the other 1 one first. It works but I may try to cut down my listening list to 15 if I can.... I sometimes only listen to portions of a song, but if it sucks me in........ |
I do not believe it is possible to test all the greatest dacs here, The conclusion would take forever for a outcome, Matt is doing fine with what he is testing, which to me, is more than enough dacs, LOL! |
Matt,
Maybe you missed the last part of my post, the Berkeley Alpha Reference is now available.
If this about the best "Redbook" performance, you need to include the Alpha REF in your test. |
Wisnon, no this is a separate upgrade from the DSD128. The DSD128 will follow in a few months. |
Your more then welcome Matt. Knowing what a great guy Merrill is I am sure he will be willing to loan his MA-1 to you again. But if the timing is off for you just let me know. |
Thank you Hifial. That is very generous of you. I am sure Merrill will re-offer after the firmware upgrade. I just need to be patient.
Hopefully I will have some time tomorrow morning. |
Is this the long overdue upgrade to DSD128? That should have happened more than a year ago. What is the hold up? Or did it happen alredy and I am unaware? |
OK. But keep in mind that I have just purchased a MA-1 and if need be would be happy to loan it to you once the new firmware update has been released.
|
Merrill knew about it, and told me. It is not yet available.
Merrill is working on some new gear and had a few days to offer the MA1 to me now. I think he will need it for a while after that.
I said thank you and took the opportunity. :) |
Matt, according to Meitner they have a major firmware update that will make a significant improvement in the sound of the MA-1. It is supposed to be released this month. Check with Merrill if his MA-1 has that update otherwise you might want to wait as the release should be any time now. |
Very nice. The Meitner and PSAudio should be an interesting comparison.... |
UPDATE:
Merrill of Merrill Audio was kind enough to lend me his Meitner MA-1 DAC. I picked it up this morning. It is well burned in and ready for a good listen, which I will do tomorrow morning if I can.
My PS Audio DirectStream has been shipped (I guess they decided not to burn it in for me afterall, or forgot).
Merrill and his friends did an interested shootout of their own, resulting in him choosing the MA-1 as his reference DAC. That shootout can be found here:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?14193-A-Small-Dac-East-Coast-Style-shootout&highlight=shootout
It's a good read. |
Ozzy - Advertising revenue?? You mean I can make money doing this????? LOL!!!!
Agear - The only double blind study my 6 year old would happily participate in would be to determine if, in fact, different color gummy bears actually taste differently. But, seriously, your point is well taken. I'm not a professional reviewer nor do I claim to be. I'm just having fun both listening and reporting my findings. A few well placed acoustic treatments in my WAF restricted listening room/shared office would unquestionably make way more difference then putting another few grand into a better DAC; but that's not going to happen in a room that she's in more then I am... |
All in my house with same gear, same cables, same rack, whatever feet are provided and placed by the manufacturer, same power, same ears...
My intention is to help define the differences between DAC's (in an identical environment)more then to say one is better or worse for you then another. We all value different sonic attributes and like different gear.
Thanks, TBG, for your input. That anecdote about the double blind study you reported proves that at the end of the day, there is no better way to determine if a unit is best for you then to take it home and use it in your system. |
Mattnshilp, I admire your effort, but so much is very fragile with everything these days. Or you comparing the units all in exactly the sale location, with the same wiring and ac plugs, and on the same isolation.
I have found the location of feet under a unit make a big difference, that some units work well with cables that another hates, that some cables, most obviously the High Fidelity cables hate to be moved at all and take a long time to recover.
Long ago, I participated in a great double blind testing of many preamps with many of their designers present and voting. This was well before cables were much in fancy as well as before much was done about isolation. We rated each and went on to the next. At the end the Bozak was the winner??? I borrowed one and took it to my home. It was awful! I lost confidence in even well done double blinds, much less the worthless 30 second, same or different crap. |
Mattnshilp, Thank you for your excellent honest opinions and observations. I appreciate them, for they are stated clearly, unbiased and without regard to advertising revenue. |
Matt, the best experimental design would be to blind a non-audiophile listener(s) (preferably your 6 yr old) and cycle through the dacs. You may be surprised by the outcome. For good measure, throw in a cheap chinese variant (Weiliang for example) just to see where things land...:) A few trust friends (one a manufacture and one an end user) have it and the < $200 Weiliang is the equivalent of a few well reviewed, sacred digital cows. |
It was reviewed here http://www.bitperfectsound.blogspot.ca/2014/05/directstream-i.html and compared to the Light Harmonic |
The PS Audio DirectStream has just been reviewed by Marja & Henk of 6Moons.
"With its great sound quality and versatile usefulness, the DirectStream DAC from PS Audio offers the best way we’ve yet encountered to convert ‘digital’ music into real music. "
At first an impressive statement. But without a full list of the previous DAC's they have reviewed, not a very useful one… They did like it quite a bit though. Everyone seams to like it very much. hummmmmm……. |
At this point you might as well throw in the Gryphon dac. |
The Offramp was not a free offer Agear, he wanted me to pay for it in full up front, which is his normal demo policy and very fair. I already have over $20k currently locked into DAC's. I don't have more $$$$ to invest in this project.
Steve was very very generous to offer me a free demo of the Final Drive and Short Block, without my asking. I don't want to ask him for any more.
Lol, ok. I thought that's what you were implying with the imprinting thing. Are you saying that "as a younger animal, I have come to recognize Guido as a parent or other object of habitual trust?" Then I guess it's accurate since our similar tastes have led me to rely on Guido's opinions sort of like habitual trust. Guido is a friend, a nice guy with a great ear (because of his visual challenges, he has developed a rather keen sense of hearing, almost supernatural as his brain actually converts some auditory stimuli into visual stimuli - as a physician it's an utterly fascinating concept. Ask him about it).
I have been as honest as I can. If I chose a DAC it will be because it's the best sounding DAC to me, in my system. I am not worried about disappointing anyone other then my desire to help and show appreciation for all of you who have participated in this thread and helped me attain the best system I can.
I started with some killer DAC's. Any of them would have been a great choice. I might just end up with the Aeris. Isn't that the fun of it? Trying them all and seeing which is best. |
My prediction is the EA dac with no preamp. |
Just to give you an idea, the latest Overdrive upgrade, my ground-plane mod is $200. This one takes the USB module performance to a new level, passing up the external Off-Ramp 5 with Dynamo power supply.
The last upgrade was the digital D/A Hynes reg, which was $400. Improved power to the digital section of the D/A chip, which improved dynamics and imaging.
Its like getting a new DAC with each of these upgrades. The customers love it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
