Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Steve, you are awesome :)....Great response, lol.  I may have to call to chat about headphones soon.  You also should think about a switch for using IEM's that need much less power to drive them and are subject, at times, to hiss. ;)....also please consider cross fade into the design.  Headroom used to do that. I still have a couple of their older models with it and it works.  Macintosh has a portable DAC/amp coming out this month that incorporates cross feed.   

Yes, that would be a great idea Steve.  Most of them need very little to drive them fully and it can cut down on noise/hiss.  Empire Ears is so careful that they even put special aftermarket cables on their higher end designs.  

Interesting on crossfade.  My older headroom amp had it and it sounded great.  Do you think that small Mac unit does it with DSP? I bet it does as it's also  DAC. I never though about that.  Now I need to look to see if my desktop one really does have it.  I know their really small portable one that I bought years ago, has it.  If the desktop one has it, would you want me to send it to you?  Just let me know.

Guys. Headphone conversations over to my 65 headphone review thread on Head-Fi please. I don’t think these guys dig the Can talk. 

Mahalo!

Ok all. I am at Capital Audiofest 2017. PM me if you are here and interested in hooking up. And I mean that as platonically as it could possibly be meant!!!!! Lol.

Have fun Matt.  take pics.

@audioengr

It is a simple matter to use upsampling so that a gentle linear phase anti-alias filter can sit far away from the audio band and where it won’t be audible. There are ways to trick most DAC chips to employ this solution and avoid or bypass the limitations of the DAC chip built-in filter options.

I"ve owned DAC's with both and so far I"ve yet to hear an upsampled that I enjoy.  I've heard fairly large (For audio terms) differences.  I've had a lot of DAC's in the house too and most are talked about in this forum (not the tube ones other than Aesthetix, which is one of the most under rated companies in all of audio for all their gear).  JMHO

Well mathematically there is nothing wrong with upsampling and it measures much better in most cases due to the less aggressive filter and because higher sample rates tend to improve DAC linearity. Perhaps it is the way inter-sample overs are handled on upsampling DACs - since most pop rock digital music has peaks greater than 0 dbfs that cause errors in any DAC that upsamples without having extra bit depth to handle these peaks. This link below describes one error mechanism (perhaps there are others) that begin to explain why upsampling on most DACs sounds worse to you.

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/tagged/inter-sample-overs

https://benchmarkmedia.com/blogs/application_notes/intersample-overs-in-cd-recordings

Benchmark make the following claim about DAC chips

"Every D/A chip and SRC chip that we have tested here at Benchmark has an intersample clipping problem!"

So unless manufacturers make an effort to find a solution to this oversampling DAC chip limitation then you have at least one pervasive problem with these DACs - this might be why Georgehifi dislikes all of these designs versus ladder DAC with no upsampling. Unlike many small effects at the LSB which arguably might not be audible, this occurs inter-sample over errirs occur at the MSB - so for sure it is easily audible on most pop/rock CD’s produced in the last 20 years.

This red noisy signal sure looks easily audible versus the corrected green curve to me,

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0321/7609/files/Inter-Sample_Overs.JPG?v=1469682095

@audioengr 

All the problems will be low level as the digital hash from inter-sample overs may not be audible until just after the transient. A bit like amplifier clipping where you don't hear problems on the transient itself as much as the distortion over everything else musical going on (harshness in the mid range in particular).

 The last link is to a plot showing what looks like typical low level clipping distortion - distortion is low (about  60 to 100 db down) but it is broadband right across the entire spectrum which makes it very likely to be audible as harshness or glare. Notice that there is actually a distortion peak at 80Hz - and we all know that an 80Hz tone lasts an eternity compared to mid range stuff - so even if the transient is a cymbal crash at 11 KHz - you have distortion smeared broadband over at least 1/80 secs (1 cycle of 80 Hz) or more than 12 msec (which is a lot).

Wow!!!!

OK. Light Harmonic Davinci 2 vs Boulder 2120 DAC/server. Both are crazy expensive. The Boulder is crazy expensive times two!!! Both are world class and just amazing. The differences are comparing Ferrari and Lamborghini (Bugatti?) so there are no losers here.

I’ve only had two solid listening sessions with both units broken in. Here’s my initial impressions:

To be honest, I’m baffled. I’ve never had a hard time comparing gear before. I typically deduce which is better for my system in one session; 30minutes to 3 hours. I’ve had two full sessions and plan on a third this Wednesday. I called in a panel of people to help me confirm or refute the differences I think I hear. A pair of ears I trust felt the Boulder superior during my initial listening session.

Jury is out. The Boulder is fan’damn’tastic! It’s natural and seams to remove a veil I didn’t know existed. But when I go back to the Davinci 2 I get a fullness that I like. Is the bass a bit sloppier on the Davinci 2, or it the Boulder a touch overly analytical? My issue is that I can’t tell whether the Boulder is thin or perfect.

I have some friends coming over Wednesday. I think I may like the Boulder more, but I can’t tell if it’s better or just different. But at $65k it should be WAY better. I know, law of diminishing returns and all. But $65k !!!!!

Interestingly, N10 is WAY better as a source compared to playing usb stick directly through the Boulder’s renderer!!! But Boulder is working on integrating Roon via Ethernet; which should be way better.

Sonically, the Boulder is SO accurate. SO correct. So clean. SO detailed. Every time I listen to it, it sounds like the performer is in the room with me; almost eerie.

I came up with the thought that with the Boulder in, it sounds like I’m in the recording studio proper, with the performers. With the Davinci 2 it sounds like I’m in the mixing room. One is cleaner, the other more full and balanced.

I just can’t decide if it’s SO.... or TOO..... I’m leaning towards SO.... but I need others to confirm since I’m on the proverbial fence.

The Davinci 2 is mind blowingly good! So for the Boulder to be “better” is sort of boggling my mind. Is it possible? Or am I just willing it to be ?

Stay tuned for more opinions and confirmations.

I also have my $55k fully loaded Memory Player finally coming in two weeks. Can’t wait to compare that to the N10, which has beaten all who have challenged it.

Good times!!!!

@mattnshilp   The majority of you post is about the Boulder. I say that (may) be all you need to know. Good times, indeed. 

I think I may like the Boulder more, but I can’t tell if it’s better or just different.....with the Boulder in, it sounds like I’m in the recording studio proper, with the performers. With the Davinci 2 it sounds like I’m in the mixing room. One is cleaner, the other more full and balanced...... The Davinci 2 is mind blowingly good! So for the Boulder to be “better” is sort of boggling my mind. Is it possible? Or am I just willing it to be?   I need others to confirm since I’m on the proverbial fence.

Reading your words, it seems that for first time in your journey there may not be perfect alignment between the consensus "best" DAC and the DAC that sounds most enjoyable to you.  Obviously, both must sound fantastic but the question then becomes what you value most from your system.  

Agree. Others, in the same vein: Drops of water. Audience applause. Conversations. Dog barking. Etc.

........and after you have gone thought all of that, just put on a few of your favorite recordings.  Are you tapping toes or moving in your seat?  Do you forget to listen as a serious reviewer or are you just relaxed and listening for fun?  There really is something about not listening critically while listening critically.  

Agree with all. Have a panel of audiophile and seasoned industry ears joining me tomorrow. I expect a multitude of differing opinions. Lol. 

Will report. 

Ctsooner,
Excellent observation and advice. Relaxed body drawn into the music and emotionally connecting. The components that spontaneously and naturally allow this are the superior choice. Toe tapping and head bobbing with the musical flow speak volumes metaphorically.
Charles

At this level, both make toes tap and give that “lost in the music” experience. There’s no bad choice here. Just better choice for me. 

I listened again this evening, briefly. As much as I think the Boulder is more accurate and refined, I think the Davinci 2 is a tad more engaging. I look forward to spending a few hours tomorrow and hearing a few opinions. 

Stay tuned. 

If that current impression holds up,  for me it would be Davinci 2 stays  and I'd wave bye to the Boulder.😊
Charles 

At this level, ideally and equally accurate and engaging, right? 

Matt, we can talk off board tomorrow about this, but in reading I also thought about how else I personally look at things.  I also look at the companies and will they be around to support said product in 7 years when it needs help.  Not sure about Light Harmonics.  Boulder most probably.  This may mean nothing to you and many others, but you know how I am about this Matt as we've spoke a ton off the board about my feelings.  Steve is the only company I've deal with that is smaller if you would and he stood behind his DAC 100% when it needed some help.

I am not saying this to dissuade you are anyone as we need all companies to push everyone.  Just something that I personally do think about.  That's only if things are 'THAT' close ;)

Sorting out the subtle details of  massed strings, voices and continousness of piano are qualities that some listeners say the Lampizator Pacific does in a very natural manner.
Charles 

As a silent follower of this thread for years.

I am waiting to see the Audioexotics acclaimed Trinity DAC and the Wadax Atlantis in Matt's audio room. I feel like it will happen soon, now that with Boulder DAC @mattnshilp has breached the 60K mark :)

I have heard Trinity a few times and LOVED it.  Just a great musical piece.  Played through large Rockports and Naim amps.  Not a big Naim fan and the Rockports were fairly new to me.  It was the first dAC that wasn't 'digital sounding to me. I liked it MUCH better than the dryer and hyper detailed DCS full stack.  

MikeLavigne - if you can arrange getting an MSB Select II into my room for 2-3 weeks than I would absolutely give it full consideration. 

Charles1Dad - Same for a uber Pacific Lampy. The room at CAF featuring the Lampy DAC was engaging and enjoyable. And it was not the Pacific. 

Essrand - I have been trying for years to hear a Trinity in my room. They have little presence in the US so arranging a demo is nie impossible. And at $45k, even a 50 off preowned piece would still cost well over $20k; and would likely take half a year to move and re-accumulate those funds. I simply can’t do that. Plus, most preowned pieces are in Europe which just adds risk and makes everything more complicated. I am trying. I even emailed the manufacturer yesterday. They don’t have demo units to send out. And I am embarrassed to say I am not familiar with the Wadax Atlantis. Maybe you can contact someone to see if they want to get one to me. ;)

Update on the boulder coming up. 

** UPDATE **

Comparing two world class DAC’s: Boulder 2120 and Light Harmonic Davinci2 

You all know my room and system. 

A dealer. A rep. An audiophile and a manufacturer (all with ears I have come to know and trust, with applied interpretation lol) came over after I spent a LOT of time listening on my own. I ran a blind audition. Input names were given “DAC” and “CD”. All power/interconnect/digital cables same. No one knew which DAC was connected to which Input.

Everyone who came that day said that they prefer input “CD” overall. Both are incredible and we are talking extremes. But everyone felt that when the critical listening was done, “CD” was the input that slipped them out of critical listening into “Lost in the Music” and was just more enjoyable to listen to long term. We also swapped inputs on the pre-amp to make sure the actual inputs didn’t add a difference in sound. I do have another manufacturer friend who was not there that day that preferred the “DAC” input. 

“CD” was the Davinci2.

Final impression :

Boulder - brighter/cleaner (some felt it had a tonal signature that leaned a tad too much towards bright while others felt it just super clean; I believe it to be both), better image specificity with performers existing more clearly defined in their own space. The illusion of more accurate but not, I think, actually more accurate; I think this is a byproduct of the bright/clean issue. More dynamic. It was actually bolder, Lol. 

Davinci2 - More layered. Better sense of portraying the texture of instruments and their complex harmonics. Better pace and rhythm. More natural sense of timbre. Wider/deeper (although not quite as tall) soundstage. Just more musical (I know, it’s a BS descriptor, but it just is).

So everyone unanimously chose the Davinci2 over the Boulder (except my one friend who wasn’t there that day, lol). But everyone said that the Boulder was better with dynamic expression and flat out clarity.

THEN I had them help me lift the massive  Davinci and we finally put my Stillpoint 5’s under the Davinci and the N10. And WOW! What a difference. It dropped the noise floor and gave the Davinci a boost in clarity and dynamic scale. Fascinating.

A good time was had by all!!!

Now, to be completely fair I think that when an  electronics manufacturer only creates front end equipment, ie. DAC or phono stage, that they have the luxury of creating their own vision of that sound isolated to that component. But if they manufacture front end gear as well as amps, preamp‘s etc. then the entire situation changes. They need to design their DAC and phono stage to sound best with their preamp and amp. With this being the case with Boulder I do believe that the voice of the DAC is not completely independent of the DAC alone and that to get the full flavor of the Boulder system I would really require the Boulder DAC, preamp and amp combined. Of course it can stand on its own, but it’s purpose built to sound its absolute best mated to its brethren electronics. 

That all said, I do not currently plan on replacing my amps or preamp anytime soon. So my comparisons are DAC only. :)

The path to audiophile happiness winds through Upgrade Canyon and past the Cliffs of Overkill!! Lake Lost In The Music is on the other side.....

Matt, honestly, you would still like the DaVinci in your system.  The Boulder gear is outstanding. That said it is a bit bright.  Not fatiguingly so, but musically so.  You know that I like it, but can't warm up to it. I'd never own it personally, but many of you guys love that flavor and that's why these shootouts are fun.  

What I've found out is that digital is the most system dependent gear in our systems.  I've heard the same DAC in different systems have the same signature, but not sound the same if that makes sense.  You could take your system Matt and put it in the identical room with a different electric feed and it would sound incrementally different.  Just change the feet...OH, you did.  Just change the power cord.....OH, you have....

We've spoken at length about this off the board, but I wanted to post it here as it ties into your post and update.  

Hoping To hear an updated Emm DAC2X soon as well as a Merging Technologies DAC. The updated DAC2X is supposedly a really nice improvement. 

Also hoping my MP-64 Memory Player server will be arriving soon. And trying to arrange an audition with the Audio Doctor for some superb USB cables and maybe an in room listen if the Baetis music server. 

Matt,
 
Did you ever receive the Total Dac stack?  Curious how this company compares to crazy expensive dacs you are listening to these days. 

Hey. Haven’t auditioned the TotalDAC yet. Still planning on it. I have a few other auditions lined up first. Then I’ll try to make that happen. 

I’ve been following this thread since it’s inception and have posted sporadically. Like Matt I have had many DAC’s in my system although haven’t participated at his level. Following his advice and listening preferences has led me to in the last six weeks purchase used both the LH Davinci 2 as well as a Aurender  N10. All is I can say is WOW!!!  The combination has elevated the digital in my system to heights I didn’t know were possible. I also have a relatively high level analog system and felt it was always smoother had more body and dynamics and just had better quality of timbre and realism. The Davinci and N10 combo have achieved this level of SQ. 

I have to put a plug in here for the the Bricasti M1 SE and most recently the PS Audio DS with the new Red Cloud firmware which get closer to the Davinci in SQ than they ought to considering the price difference. Also the Music Vault M7 with AES connection is the equal of the N10 on PCM in my system and to my ears. But as Matt has pointed out many times on this journey he is looking for the BEST. 

We all have to thank Matt that we can live vicariously through his ears and wallet (lol) to heed his advice and then decide on purchases new or even used here on Agon for the gear we decide to purchase. 

This has been an incredible journey and through this threads guidance have reached the pinnacle of performance in my room to my ears with my chosen system. 

Thank You Matt

Jeff

Hello Richfield_Hunter,

This is Dave from Audio Doctor the dealer that sold Matt the Davinci 2.

Believe it or not you may still not have gotten everything out of your Davinci 2.

We just did a demo of the Wireworld Platinum Ethernet Cable and wow did it make a difference going into a server so if you are not using a state of the art ethernet cable that will give you more depth and a wider soundstage. 

The Baetis server we are using is I think a different level than the N10, also we would need to know about your power cables and conditioning.

We use the Enklein David power cables and they are amazing.

Other tips is vibration isolation we have our Davinci on a Stillpoints platform and all of these tips plus a state of the art USB again so far the best we have tested the Enklein Trek a pure silver hand made USB cable and you might be surprised to see the Davinci pull ahead of even a fantastic vinyl rig.

As you keep on working with the Davinci it just keeps on revealing more and more information and boy does it sound like the best vinyl rigs. 

Congratuations.

Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ

Jeff, good to see you post again, lol.  I'm glad you got the DaVinci and N10.  I'll see you guys at Audio Connection on Saturday when Richard Vandersteen visits.  Will be fun.  

Peter, I had hoped to see you and others on Saturday but one of the audio clubs I belong to, The Audiophile Society, of NYC, will be having a meeting on Saturday during the same hours. 
In the past this club does not tend to hold a meeting in December but they called for one just several days ago.  
I want to support both the member who is hosting the meeting and the guest speaker who I personally know. 
We should try to talk on the phone soon and catch up. Much to talk about. 
I enjoyed our last such conversation. 

Cheers, Al. 

Al Mirabella 
Ambassador Sound Galleries & Taiko Audio 
Sound Test USA 

Al, looking forward. Yes it was a great talk. Too bad the club can’t come to Johnny’s. That would have been great. We will need to set something like that up. Would be fun. I’d like more info on the club too.  Pete. 

Yes, having John hosting a Club would be great as he is a wonderful host. Not too mention a wonderful dealer. 
I will PM you the contact information for The Audiophile Society. 
If anyone else would like me to PM that information just contact me by PM. 
PS there is also the New Jersey Audiophile Society. We just had our Holiday Party this past Sunday at the Club House in the community that I live in and a pleasant time was had by all. Anyone who would like their contact information just PM. 

FYI in both clubs we have some members that regular travel one to two hours to attend meetings and some who live out of state. 

Best, Al. 

That would be me Al, lol.  I've never been to any clubs or even a show in my life, lol.  Now I'm asking for club info and will be going to Cam Jam in NYC in Feb if the MS let's me, lol.....  What has life turned into?  

Al, can't wait to get the server in and have you over.  A dealer friend of mine in Houston, Timbr Audio, just taped a world class pianist in his store (they have a special room for this) and is sending me the whole session on a thumb drive.  I am hoping that becomes a bit of a reference for me, lol.  He's worked with Chesky and others in the past, so I'm sure it's recorded as good as it can be.  Yes, Matt, you will get a copy as will Richfield, lol..

How many of you use piano to when critically listening?  I know that's one instrument I was told to use back in teh early 70's.  It's a big reason I don't like so many speakers as that and cymbals can be brutal to properly reproduce IMHO.  

Piano is one of the main things I use when evaluating a system/component/change in my system. Particularly for imaging. If a system can't put a piano together seamlessly, front to back and side to side, then I know there's work to do still. 

Davinci2 has R2R for PCM and separate conversion (FPGA?) for DSD, right? How about the Boulder 2120 as far as D/A conversion?

How does the latest PS Audio and Playback Designs Sonoma compare with each other and to the very top of the hi-end?

I can't bail on SACD transport just yet, so upgrading my Cary 306 SACD Pro to PS Audio is close to a decent price point for me when on sale and I'd could still spin physical discs for a while before going hard drive.

Jh901 - I don’t focus on DAC chip and design. Just sound. I’ve heard good and bad ladders, and good and bad everything else. Implementation is more important then what chip design is implemented.

I‘ve never been a fan of the DS, in all of its iterations. But I have not heard the last 2. I have heard the Merlot, and I was not blown away. Sorry. He has a higher end product coming out that is supposed to be excellent. But I have not heard it.

I have news to report on the music server search. Stay tuned....

As many of you know, I have developed a wonderful friendship with Merrill of Merrill Audio. He has started utilizing my room, system and ears as one of many opinions during his design process when he needs opinions on new designs.

He has developed his own Class-D amplifier module that Is quite special. Today, he brought over the semi final prototype of his new monoblocks for the two of us to compare to my reference Burmester 911mk3 amplifiers. To say I was impressed with his new mono block design and performance is an understatement! They will be a level above the Merrill Veritas monoblocks I previously owned.

On initial listen they are stunningly fast, have a bottomless noise floor, complete lack of distortion, crazy tight and well controlled bass, are super clean and accurate and yet maintain musicality, pace and rhythm with complex textures and harmonics. I could happily live with them instead of my Burmesters; initial impression. With time I will likely find some flaws and more definable character traits. But wow!!! The Burmester amps retail for over twice what these will be; so their price to performance value is exploding off the charts! And I must admit that the 3-D renderings of the final appearance is strikingly attractic.

It it was quite a sneak peak. And I look forward to hearing the final production version, or any version in between!

and Vandersteen may be coming out soon with a SS amp.  Lot's of great new gear coming soon.  BTW, I may be selling my Ayre QX5/20 DAC (all inputs and fully updated as I may be moving up a bit.  I should know soonish, but will PM with folks who have interest. Thanks