Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD

Mattnshilp

"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"

If you want this and have deep pockets then go with one of these discrete ladder dacs, flagship over $40K

http://www.totaldac.com/full_totaldac-eng.htm

Cheers George

Here's a review on one of the mid range models, just look at those discrete Vishay ladder networks, yumm!!

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/totaldac3/1.html

This also is a very highly regarded R2R Ladder dac, and it uses my fav PCM1704 Multibit dac chips.

http://www.ch-precision.com/products/c1

Heard CH Precision DAC at RMAF. I was very much looking forward to the experience because of the glowing reports I read about it. Unfortunately the system sounded grating and harsh, whithout a hint of what sounds "musical" to my ears. Asked the gent -- I believe that was the US distributor -- if the device was perhaps new out of the box and needed some break-in. I was told in no uncertain terms that the device was sounding exactly as it should... CH Precision products sound right just out of the box and do not require any break-in... And that clearly I do not understand good sound.

Left the suite befuddled... Went to visit the MSB folks... Amazing sound of music enveloped me.

Go figure!

G.

Matt - I am totally impressed at how you are going about your speaker purchase (and cd/dac audition). You are doing it with class. If I were a dealer, I'd give you the keys to my store (and a nice discount).

Matt, I agree 100% with Cerrot. Most impressive and well thought out. Well done.

07-23-15: Guidocorona
Thank you Agear for the link.

As for your purple oneliner... Masterful as usual... With just a hint of tasteless... A veritable Agearism at its best. ;)

Congrats, G.

Ha! Guido, I am glad you appreciated my underhandedness. :) I find that I have to be ever so slightly graphic with my insults otherwise they get lost in translation. A lot of people don't really read anymore. A lot of talking and no listening.....

Your perceptions of CH Precision have been shared by others that I know and trust....but again, it was at a show. My speakers have spit out wretched sound in a show setting on more than one occasion despite having great potential. Oh well....

07-24-15: Cerrot
Matt - I am totally impressed at how you are going about your speaker purchase (and cd/dac audition). You are doing it with class. If I were a dealer, I'd give you the keys to my store (and a nice discount).

That's one interpretation. If Matthew stayed on his meds, this thread would be a lot shorter with more focus....

If you can find one of these s/h they should be a bit of an ear opener.
I believe it used the next best Multibit ladder dac chip to the PCM1704 the just as good PCM1702, and HDCD is always a winner. And it does A to D conversion also as a bonus.

http://www.goodwinshighend.com/manufacturers/pacific_microsonics/pacific_microsonics_model_two.htm

Cheers George

Hey Agear, If I can point out a flaw in your otherwise excellent purplesome... I do not "splash', I usually slosh and wallow instead.

Concerning Matt's condition, meds won't help. According to Dr. Aloysius Qwantz Schmaltzenstein-Gavronsky, our collective Audiophrenia is a prionic infection. If you got it, you bought the farm. See:

http://positive-feedback.com/Issue46/audiophrenia.htm

G.

07-25-15: Guidocorona
Hey Agear, If I can point out a flaw in your otherwise excellent purplesome... I do not "splash', I usually slosh and wallow instead.

Concerning Matt's condition, meds won't help. According to Dr. Aloysius Qwantz Schmaltzenstein-Gavronsky, our collective Audiophrenia is a prionic infection. If you got it, you bought the farm. See:

positive-feedback.com

G.

Ha! Sloshing and wallowing comes with age and maturity like a fine wine. I aspire to roll as you do in cyberspace....:)

As for our collective condition, I whole wholeheartedly agree. I feign transcendence and am merely taking a cheap shot at my brother in crime Matthew.....

Agear... I'll drink to that! G.

Mattnshilp, go to aaudioimports.com for reviews and dealers

EA Overdrive SE

Long thread, so I can't recall DSP filtering and D/A conversion details on Matt's current DAC. Which chips are used for each PCM and DSD?

Appreciated, Josh

George,

Mani in the UK sold his PM2 a few months back. Great as a PCM ADC but not so good as a Dac he said. The phasure NOs1A totally thrashed it.

I have heard a few BB1704 Dacs in my time and still dont understand the fuss...

It must be me, I guess.

Agear - I gave up on my meds a long time ago. Alas, they only work until noon and then wore off completely leaving me in a rebound state far worse then what I started off with.....

I now swallow a Synergistic Research HFT twice a week. I find it helps my kidneys and liver to resonate properly while listening to classical and jazz. The newer HFT 2.0 X series, I find, if taken between 4:37 and 4:39AM on the second Tuesday of the month can truly tune my spine to properly reproduce Austrian Polka in a way I have never heard before. The habit is getting expensive and re-collection of the transducers is not at all pleasant, but there is no limit to the lengths that a true audiophile should be willing to go!!!

Grins!!!

-Matt

Well Wisnon, I just got an order for my product from this customer, who has the "very best" of everything.

And when I asked him what his system was, this is what he listed.

"Pacific Microsonics model 2 (DAC) with a pair of Soulution 701 monoblocks that are driving Magico Q7mkII speakers."

Then I asked him if he would ever consider selling me the PM model 2. "He will never get rid of it and will be buried with it as nothing has ever come close to it", and he has very very deep pockets.

I then asked as a joke for him to leave it in his will, and he said "there is a very long queue for that, for me to stand in line.

George

07-26-15: Georgelofi

Well Wisnon, I just got an order for my product from this customer, who has the "very best" of everything.

And when I asked him what his system was, this is what he listed.

"Pacific Microsonics model 2 (DAC) with a pair of Soulution 701 monoblocks that are driving Magico Q7mkII speakers."

Then I asked him if he would ever consider selling me the PM model 2. "He will never get rid of it and will be buried with it as nothing has ever come close to it", and he has very very deep pockets.

I then asked as a joke for him to leave it in his will, and he said "there is a very long queue for that, for me to stand in line.

LOL. That speaks volumes....

07-26-15: Mattnshilp
Agear - I gave up on my meds a long time ago. Alas, they only work until noon and then wore off completely leaving me in a rebound state far worse then what I started off with.....

Ha! I bet most of your fiddling occurs at night when the wife and kids are asleep. The lab is only open at night....:)

Why is PM the Model Two out of production?

Everyone who hears the Pacific Microsonics Model Two of course immediately asks the question, "Why it is no longer available?"

Here is the answer written by Dave Peck, who formerly worked for Pacific Microsonics and now works for Euphonix (which continued the manufacturing of the Model Two after Pacific Microsonics was acquired by Microsoft), and was intimately involved with the manufacturing and testing of both the Model One and the Model Two:

"The HDCD converters were discontinued because it became impossible to build any more. When several critical components became obsolete, Pacific Microsonics made a 'last time buy' of as many of them as possible to allow production to continue for another year or two, as well as buying a large number of other components that were expected to go obsolete during that time period. All of them did go obsolete. So, at the end of that time period, it was then completely impossible to build any more. It would have required such a significant redesign that it would have been better to start from scratch on a completely new design.

However, by that time, Pacific Microsonics no longer existed and the converters were being built by Euphonix (by the same crew using all the same materials, test equipment, etc.). Keep in mind that the Model Two was never supposed to be a source of revenue for Pacific Microsonics. They were essentially sold at cost, and the company made money by selling the HDCD decoder chips to CD and DVD player manufacturers like Rotel and Denon. Since this did not benefit Euphonix, it was not practical for Euphonix to fund the design of a new version of the product. And as was pointed out, Keith Johnson and the other designers were busy with other work anyway and would not have been available.

BTW, although it is not possible to build new HDCD converters, Euphonix has a significant stock of service parts so there is no problem getting one of these converters serviced.

And yes! Keith Johnson's recordings are absolutely amazing. Check out anything he has done on Reference Recordings. He's also just about the nicest guy you'll ever meet."

Coincidentally, I found a dealer in north eastern Connecticut who sells both T&F and BMC. I will call tomorrow and set up a demo. The dealer has the Ra I believe, but the distributor felt that Isis was a better option for my room.

I'll keep you updated. Unfortunately, the dealer is almost 3 hours away. I also plan to go hear the Avalon speakers (Time and Isis) and that dealer is in the exact opposite direction, South 2.5 hours. Sigh.

That is a very interesting piece of history Matt. It's sad how some quality companies can come and go.

Avalon is another good option (at least I am a fan). I am glad you spoke with Bob about T&F. He is a jewel, and its worth a sniff.

06-09-15: Mcondon
Are you in New Jersey? If so, I would give Brett Messler at Audio 202 in Far Hills a call. Some of the speakers on your audition list were also on mine. Brett carries some interesting brands you won't hear elsewhere. I auditioned Behold Tanara speakers and thought they were a lot better than Vivid, Marten, Wilson, Raidho, and Acoustic Zen. Behold speakers also would work well in a room your size. I have no affiliation, I am just a former satisfied customer and thought he might be in your locale. If you are not in New Jersey, sorry.

The Behold stuff looks interesting as well...although its 55K....:\

Spot on Vyokyong, you said what I didn't have the patience to do.
One more thing though there was one more HDCD chip bought out briefly after the famed PMD-100 HDCD, the PMD-200.
It was used in my Redbook CD player The Cary 303/200 which also had what I believe to be the last and best R2R Multibit dac ever made in it, the almost extinct PCM1704K dac.
Out of the box this is a nice sounding player, but with some serious work http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v-52.html#post4404793 to the I/V and output buffer it is very hard to beat.

Cheers George

My VAC 22.1 tubed dac uses the PMD 100 chip also. This approximately 19 year old product sounds more natural then my Oppo 105d which I use mainly as a transport for the VAC.
Not all old digital is surpassed by the latest gear. However, I will say that my Chord Hugo is superior.

R-2R list in production 2015:

Aqua HiFi La Scala
PCM1704-K (4) Dual mono

CH Precision C1
PCM1704 (8) Dual mono

Computer Audio Design CAD 1543
DAC Philips TDA1543/N2 (16)

Metrum Acoustics Pavane
Propietary "Transient" chips

MSB DAC V
Discrete (proprietary)

Schiit Yggdrasil
AD5791 BRUZ (4)

totaldac d1-twelve
6 discrete ladders per channel (600 vishay foil resistors)

Trinity Electronic Design Trinity DAC
PCM1704

Many differences with these (and any DAC) beyond D/A conversion of course. Maybe I'll add details if warranted. Any others for this list? Figure this may be interesting once Matt get backs to DACs.

Thanks JH. That's a very useful list to have.

With my return from vacation I am packing up all of my currently loaned speakers and resting them for return to their generous lenders. I am also packing up my Der Muziks and hoping for a buyer.

I have not yet he time to plan auditions but I will keep you posted. I will say that the Coltrane Tenor is still my front runner. But I have some very good speakers to still hear.

Anyone heard the Salk Soundstage 10 or the Vapor Audio Joule??

Vapor Audio information?

http://www.audioaficionado.org/general-speaker-discussion/30482-vapor-audio-perfect-storm.html

I own Vapor Joule Black. Replaced Von Schweikert VR4jr in my system. These are the pair that Vapor showed at RMAF 2014. I heard Salk Soundscape 8 at RMAF 2013 but they didn't do it for me. Then I heard Vapor Nimbus at the same show which led me to talking to Ryan Scott and deciding on the Joule. The build was completed shortly before RMAF so I agreed to let them be shown (also got some hours on them).

Don P.

Phasure Dac Nos1A uses BB1704 (8 in total) and the computer up samples all to 784hz and does all the filtering in the digital domain.

Apparently it beats all the other R2Rs above according to their owners and one of them SOLD his PM2 Dac as the Phasure in his word totally thrashed it.

None of these Dacs play DSD in raw form.

I have also read some credible sources that said the PM2 was a MUCH better ADC than a Dac. Myth and lore aside.

Matt, contact me via PM at Audiocircle, compaudiophile or audiocircle and I can email you the pdf of the full UHF magazine review of the Kithara. (I have the print issue)

Nothing near it price will equal it, IMHO.

http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue59/Kithara.html

From a "for sale" online advert:

For sale here is a pair of the Oskar Kithara speakers, featuring the Heil AMT (Air Motion Transformer) tweeter, a completely design from ordinary dynamic tweeters. Not only does the Heil AMT have a huge frequency range - from 700 Hz to 23,000 Hz (!!), so no cross-over in the critical and easy-to-hear range - the highs are clear and non-fatiguing, unlike the many ear-bleed inducing metal tweeters in use nowadays. The up-firing 10" woofer provides all the bass you'll need
Set-up properly, these speakers image like crazy and provide full range sound, and with an efficiency rating of 94dB, you don't need a lot of power to operate them.
To quote Gerard Rejskind at UHF magazine in their review of the Kithara:
"This is a loudspeaker that any of the world's great speaker designers could point to with pride. Its highs and midrange are topped by only a few, very expensive speakers. Its bottom end is solid and more then generous. It will run with nearly any amplifier. It can work even in large rooms. It has a killer image. Is there anything on your list that I've left out? I have a feeling that if this speaker is ever produced in large numbers, its price will have to rise. At the moment it's absurdly cheap. That's what I'm telling my friends."

I had a lengthy conversation with one of the U.S. Dealers of the Kithara. He told me that the low frequency extension is disappointing at best and there are many higher end speakers that outperform the Kithara in every way. He also said that the speaker is getting more expensive to import and hard to sell at higher then it's $6k retail price. The search continues....

Hey Matt,

I think the Pearl 3 should be added to your audition list. The top cab that houses the midbass/tweeter is rear ported, but this should have very little effect with what you are trying to accomplish. The bass cabs are not rear ported.

These are very special speakers in that they provide a most expansive and very accurate soundstage, yet the artists are presented with energy, and "in the room" at the same time. I have never heard another speaker do both of these things so well.

The bassplate corrects the Low end deficiency and there are no US dealers anymore. United Home stopped carrying them in favour of the far more expensive MSB and TriCell of Toronto is the distributor.

Try to listen for yourself, as I may work in your room as described.

If you read the blurb, $7K is a bargain. Perhaps its not a WISE sale for dealers, as they make more with other brands/models?

It has very little WAF and that restricts sales.

There is a story of a guy here who know his wife would hate it, but he loved the sound and sent her off on an expensive vacation. During that time he bought a pair and when she got back, he told her the return period expired and they wouldn't take it back. LoL

For a dedicated listening room, you dont need much WAF.

Also, the suspension on the 10inch woofer has been stiffened and the driver itself has been upgraded. Its HARD for any woffer to keep up with the speed of Heils, especially the big Heil.

UHF mag in Montreal does not accept advertising, so are very trustworthy IMHO.

Contact me and I will send the article, even if its just for an informative read.

Hi Paul,

Joseph Audio has a great rep. Never heard them though.

Old UnitedHomeaudio website, from when they used to carry the brand:

http://www.unitedhomeaudio.com/id101.htm

The Joseph's ended my search. With his infinite slope, he takes full advantage of the metal cones strengths, without their break up/ringing characteristics they have a problem with outside their passband. Speed like an electrostatic with insanely real dynamic contrasting.

Pearl is another good speaker. Matt, did you ever sniff out the Behold stuff? Interesting design concepts....

Despite the obvious psychiatric issues I referenced earlier, Matt should be congratulated for his zeal and opening up his cyber lab allowing us losers to feed our voyeuristic tendencies....

Matt has crafted and maintained a very interesting thread.

It is an entire circle in and of itself.

So right. No more Absolute top their DAC thread, lol. Full system search.

hi paul, Joseph are very fine speakers... Heard them several times.... Last driven by the Rowland M825, and the result was exceptionally involving.

please explain... "problem with outside their passband"

Regards, G.

Guido, I think he's saying that the "infinite slope" crossovers prevent the metal cones from being exposed to frequencies they can't handle without breakup and/or ringing. While a more conventional lower order crossover would provide a much lesser degree of filtering of frequencies that are outside of the range the drivers can handle in an optimal manner.

I have no specific knowledge of Joseph speakers, but that is how I would interpret the statement.

Best regards,
-- Al

Al is correct as usual! While Joseph Audio speakers do not actually use the original 'infinite slope' crossover design that they use to, they still incorporate a very steep slope crossover filter design which sounds even better. As such the crossover prevents frequencies in the breakup regions of the drivers from being excited. So they benefit from the speed and articulation of the drivers used while avoiding their potential shortcomings. The Pearls are a true full range design that have a seamless presentation with superb imaging. Most people are shocked at how good they are when they first hear them.

Thank you Al and Bill for the technical explanation... When I heard Joseph speakers at RMAF 2013, they definitely pleased me without reservations.... I enjoyed the suite so much that I returned to it a few timesfor more good music ... Which is not a particularly common outcome for me *grins!*

G.

Hi all. First off, I have the Bricasti M1 in the house and have been listening for a few days. I am holding opinions for a bit so I can provide a solid report.

I want to thank all for getting into my speaker search. I'm sorry I sidetracked the thread but its been a fun sidetrack and you guys have given me great suggestions! I promise this thread will end up back on the DAC track when the speaker decision has been finalized.

Here is a list of my current possibilities, almost all of which I have not heard. Obviously the Marten Coltrane Tenor is currently my front runner. But since it is a whopping $80K retail I am hoping to find a slightly (or significantly) less expensive option to consider; although if the Tenor ends up being the one that just does it for me then the Tenor it will be. I will not list the speakers I have already removed from my list…

Marten Coltrane Tenor (or even the Coltrane 3 if the opportunity arises)
Avalon Time or Isis
Joseph Audio Pearl 3 (I just put this on the list at your suggestion but I need to confirm it is not rear ported)
Perfect8 - The Point (I know I love these but they are a super whopping $100K)
Soulsonic - Holograph (Intriguing but very eclectic and VERY expensive)
Alkemia Vero - Italian omnidirectional (also intriguing but very expensive and eclectic)
Vandy 7 - Admittedly has not done it for me when I have heard them before. But at your insistence I am giving them their full chance to catch my heart.
Avantgarde - Duo Grosso (I know, a horn in a small room. But I have spoken to many people who think they would fit perfectly in my room and I have always enjoyed the way they sound; albeit a bit romantic. I'm also not in love with the fact that they are powered subs and that I would probably benefit from a tubed amp instead of my uber solid state amp that I love so much). But its on the list
Trenner & Friedl - Isis (A solid choice but hard to find. I'm doing my best to get my ears on a pair)
BMC - Arcadia (Also a solid choice but not easy to get my ears on a pair. I'm trying though)
Nola - Baby Grand Reference Gold (I need to confirm, but i recently realized that these are not rear ported and are certainly worth consideration if they work for my room)
Ascendo - Heard them recently and they are very good. low on my list but thinking about them….
Salk - Soundscape 10 (a solidly designed speaker for a reasonable price. I need to hear them to see how good they are. I am having a hard time believing that the Salk or the Vapor Joule would really compete with some of the much more expensive speakers I am considering)
Vapor Audio - Joule black or white (I'm thinking white) - A few threads really threw a monkey wrench into their public opinion but I'm not sure what to believe. They use similar drivers and design to the Salk and my same concern exists. I'm trying to hear a pair.
YG - I have heard them several times and although they have many strengths, I don't think they are for me.

I think thats it right now, although I may have forgotten one. I know Wisnon keeps suggesting the Heil speaker and I will try to hear a pair. But I don't think it will compare with some of the better speakers I am considering, especially in the low frequency extension which is really important to me.

Avantgarde - Duo Grosso (I know, a horn in a small room. But I have spoken to many people who think they would fit perfectly in my room and I have always enjoyed the way they sound; albeit a bit romantic. I'm also not in love with the fact that they are powered subs and that I would probably benefit from a tubed amp instead of my uber solid state amp that I love so much).

Matt, an additional point to keep in mind, certainly with respect to the Avantgarde speakers and perhaps with some of the others that may have particularly high efficiency, is that the high power capability and high sensitivity provided by your Burmester amps would probably result in your using the volume control on the preamp very close to the bottom of its range. Which depending on the design of the preamp may have a number of adverse consequences.

Best regards,
-- Al

Mattnshilp, where do you live. I have a pair of the BMC Arcadia speakers and would be happy to demonstrate them after Sept, 15th. I live in College Station, TX.

08-02-15: Mattnshilp
I want to thank all for getting into my speaker search. I'm sorry I sidetracked the thread but its been a fun sidetrack and you guys have given me great suggestions! I promise this thread will end up back on the DAC track when the speaker decision has been finalized.

Matt, the bunny trails into speakers and room are welcome and honesty far more interesting than the petty and one dimensional tribalism that dac discussions generate. They are also far more important final arbiters of sound....:)