Ctsooner, I have not heard the new Berkeley. It may not be out yet and not sure I'd want to spend $15,000 for a DAC considering how fast they come and go. Currently using the Berkeley Alpha DAC2 but thinking of checking out the Aesthetix because I like tubes.
I threw the new Berkeley DAC into the ring as something to consider as the OP was asking for "absolute top tier" DAC's and the Berkeley Alpha DAC Reference will probably qualify. Sure would like to give it a listen. |
If you like Tube Dacs, check out the DHT tube Lampi L7:
This Dac is a serious piece of musical equipment.
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/05/09/axpona-2014-vapor-audio-purity-audio-and-lampizator/comment-page-1/#comment-19338 |
MSB Analog DAC is below your budget and should be considered a must-audition. Also: Bricasti M1, Meitner and EMM offerings.
The problem with DACs is that the field continues to evolve rapidly and whatever you choose is likely to depreciate precipitously. Compared to most other component categories, it's hard to choose a DAC for the long haul and have it hold up. |
The best tubeDAC available IMO is probably the Killer DAC from Australia. Put Siemens CCA grey-plate tubes in it and drive it with an Off-Ramp 5, fully optioned.
As for best SS DAC, the Overdrive SE was compared to several high-end DACs in this review last month:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/empirical-audio-overdrive-se-usb-dacpre
Nothing beat it.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
I listen to mostly redbook. I've had W4S dac2, with off ramp 5 and short block, and lampizator 4 and now 7. I loved all of them at different times. But to your question. I'm so impressed with the Big7 playing redbook. Very engaging. |
Guf, are you running your Lampy with the off ramp 5? Or direct in with USB and no off ramp?
Are you using stock tubes, or have you rolled them? |
Emm Labs Dac2x.. Chord QBD76 HDSD, Berkely Audio Reference Dac |
Aesthetix Pandora Signature |
@ Kana813, LOL!, I was going to post your exact recommendation, I agree!, The Aesthetix Pandora signature is one of the very best, one of audios best kept secrets! |
Any opinions on Wavelength Crimson HS USB DAC?
Maybe the non-up sampling transcendental version? Or the super up sampling denominator version? |
Hi Matt,
I am not sure if we discussed Steve Nugent's Overdrive SE with his final drive bypassing a pre-amp. This setup did surpass my tube 12K preamp and did so by a VERY WIDE margin. This is where Steve Nugent's dac really shines. I have since upgraded my pre to something completely different. The Allnic L5000 DHT. Through complete balanced cabling I have custom modded computer server to Overdrive SE fully modded with all Paul Hynes Regs and all outputs > Allnic L5000 DHT > Emprical Final Drive > Allnice A6000 monoblock 300b. My experience, it took a piece that retails for 20K to add sonic quality beyond what was offered by the Overdrive SE > Final Drive combo.
Steve's dac/pre combo did get best in show during the RMAF last year, used with Vapor speakers.
I disagree with the statement that a musically engaging dac is a dac that adds color. Owning an Overdrive myself, I can tell you first hand seeing the inside, Steve has minimal point to point distance between various components...this dac is well designed, densely pack with quality parts.
There may be benefit in a non-upsampling dac. Again I do not have much to compare it do but both my old Meitner Museatex bidat and Empirical dac (both non-upsampling) best my (for sale) EMM LABS Dac2x. However, I never am able to sell the EMM labs because I am not going to lie, to me Steve's dac best it and at a better price.
For anyone looking for a new setup, I would strongly encourage them to consider bypassing a preamp, and focusing on Dac>Final drive combo. For $9750, with Steve Nugent's current special, you would be hard pressed to find something better. I was unable to at 3x that range. Again, this is my experience. I jumped on Steve's deal last fall (same as today) and after following his gear for the last two year, his stuff never goes on sale...there is no middle man and very little markup.
This is the other thing that frustrates me regarding high end audio gear...there is the public price and the trade price. For those who review gear and get it free or below cost and which I personally question their review as unbiased. Then others with connections acquiring a DAC2x for under 3K. Call me envious or jealous...I admit that, I am. Those bstrds (grin). Knowing Paul Hynes, the chassis and parts used in Steve' dac, I estimate his overhead in materials alone approaches 4K.
I posted this in 2012 when I first heard his dac, and it applies today: "Regarding the Overdrive SE stock vs. upgraded Analog Hynes Regulators and CUTF coupling caps: My impression was Steve himself preferred stock over the upgrades. The differences were subtle for rock performances, with stock giving a more stage presence allowing my visceral experience of being at a Bonnie Raitt concert. Personally, for what I listen to, I much preferred the upgrades. To me this sounded like the performer was 5 – 10 feet away with a very real 3d effect. I would move to different aspects of the room and that person is still playing in the same spot. The other detail I would sense is when a musician will pluck a chord flat or not. Very often at musical events that are really impressive, I close my eyes and enjoy the music. Eyes closed, this performance seemed no difference. Also, if you enjoy piano, go with the upgrades…I have never heard piano in any reference system sound like this."
I have a third dac for review that will be of interest and I will compare it to both the EMM and Empirical. Allnic D5000 DHT. Anyone in the Oregon region would be interested, please PM me.
Trialing many high end dacs together is difficult. This is why I initially purchased the EMM, sans audition. No one local carried high end dacs. EMM is a great dac, it is precise, neutral, and detailed. It however for me is not engaging. I believe Steve's dac would challenge many vinyl rigs and envelopes you into the experience.
Now take this DAC and VH audio Plasmatron 3A unit and you will find sonic bliss. |
Wow, Huge response to this thread... Awesome! When is the purchase? |
Thank you Ketcham.
I find this thread enormously useful and appreciate everyones suggestions.
As an update (although the thread has taken on a life of its own and even though I started the thread, I love were its going and acknowledge that my particular needs are sort of secondary). That said…
I have decided that for right now, I am going to focus on DAC's with USB inputs only. Which eliminates all recognized DACs with spdif input only.
I have either outright purchased, paid in full for a unit to audition for a limited time (money back audition), or arranged to audition/borrow the following DAC's:
Empirical Audio Over Drive SE fully upgraded
PS Audio DirectStream
Lampizator Big 6
Accustic Arts Tube Dac 2 mark 2
Jeff Rowland Aeris
I may be able to borrow a Meitner MA-1
I will keep you posted…
The Aesthetix Pandora signature was the other one people suggested that I was interested in. I just can't find one to audition…. |
Would you consider adding the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC to your audition list? Please see:
http://www.ayre.com/qb9.htm
Please see the review of the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC in the Computer Audiophile web site below:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/565-ayre-acoustics-qb-9-dsd-dac-review/
I own the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC and it is terrific. I am very impressed with the way it sounds. The new DSD version is much better sounding then my previous Ayre CX-7e CD player. The highs are better and so is the bass. Overall, the Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC sounds excellent in my system and I highly recommend you audition it. |
I second both the Ayre & Wavelength recommendations.
Before I owned my current Wavelength Crimson, I owned the Wavelength Brick Silver Edition. Knowing that Gordon Rankin of Wavelength provided his Asynchronous expertise for the QB-9, I auditioned one against my Brick Silver. The comparison results favored the Brick Silver, but only ever so slightly....
Good luck hunting....I look forward to hearing about your results and your final purchase decision. |
@ Mattnshilp, Hi, I would find a way to audition, in a store or in your system the Aesthetix Pandora signature before you made a regretfull, decision here, unless you just like dacs, The Romulas signature, all in one box solution with analog volume control is what I will be going with, this unit is hailed by all to better any pre-amp running direct to amps, I hope you can tell us here your impressions of the Aesthetix, cheers. |
An in store audition is not that helpful to me; I need the unit in my room to directly compare... There are so may factors in good performance; the room is different, amps, pre-amps, cables, AC.....
I think there is a NJ dealer for Aesthetix. I'll call. I dont' want to overdo it on the shootout though. I typically find that comparing more then 3 units at a time is fatiguing and difficult. With the Aesthetix it would be 6. It may need to be over a few days, and time is hard for me to come by. |
Hgeifman & Mrmb: I would love to add the Wavelength and Ayre. I might have a part 2 to the shootout if I feel that none of my current offerings get me where I want to be (which I would be surprised with).
My issue is, to be honest, that getting these units into MY house requires that I either find a dealer or friend willing to lend me the unit, pay in full for a timed audition (with full refund minus shipping), or buy the unit outright...
I want to be honest to the dealers and stores that are offering me the loan or paid audition as this is a service that is getting less and less common and these are the dealers and stores that need our support to sustain the customer service we need to enjoy and grow this wonderful hobby. I have 2 manufacturers (PS Audio and Steve at Empirical Audio, who is a hell of a designer and great guy) that are being generous enough to offer me a money back audition period to try out their gear; they need to be commended for this service and I feel obligated to limit my selections to give their equipment the time and consideration it deserves. The same is said of USA Tube Audio of Scottsdale, AZ who has very generously offered me a 15 day trial period for the Accustic Arts DAC. And finally, Thomas of New York Sound and Vision is arranging the Jeff Rowland Aeris audition for me with no financial outlay required; just wow! All of them deserve recognition!
I think the Aesthetix and Wavelength are probably more up my alley then the Ayre would be, but I have heard great things about all 3! If I can find a friend who has one to lend me, I will pursue it.
This thread has exceeded my hopes!!!!
Thanks guys!! |
@ Mattnshilp, I enjoy your thread here, Keep me posted, not all of us are able to do what you are doing, getting to audition all these digital products, you have my close attention, cheers. |
Guys, John at Audio Connection in Verona NJ has Aethetix and Ayre. He can surely help you out and let you audition in your home I bet. He's on this board and is friends with many of us. |
I agree you dont want to overdo it and feel overwhelmed with 7 dac having at the same time. However, I do feel like having several pieces of equipment is the best way to figure which one works in your system or also what they sound like so in case you're after a certain sound later on, you can rely on your impressions. |
Has anyone have the opportunity to compare any of the aforementioned units to Benchmark DAC1 or one of its various spin-offs? I have it hooked up now and it really changed my redbook CD listening experience in a profound way. But I am wondering if there is something even beyond this. Thanks! --Jonson Lee |
Matt, I just spoke to John at Audio Connection for you and he would love to help. He has a few, but he will know what will sound best with what you are using in your system. he's great like that, just ask anyone who goes there. His number is (973) 239-1799. Just tell him Peter told you to call or that you are from the board. Great luck. I can't wait to hear what you two come up with. |
You guys are so funny! You are enabling my pathologies!!!
I'll call him tomorrow. |
Jonson, you really need to get in to listen to the Ayre and Aesthetix. I have listened to the Benchmark 2 vs these other two and there isn't a comparison. The A's are both musical, detailed not etched, non 'digital'. They sound like music. I have heard so many DAC's recently and I went with the Music Hall 25.3 as it has balanced outputs and I use Ayre electronics. I couldn't justify spending more as the MH was very musical with plenty of detail etc... vs most of the DAC's under 3k. I have heard some of the higher end DAC's now and I still love the Ayre, but it only has USB and I need more than just that. I'd die for the Aesthetix gear. Of all the electronics I've heard recently and that includes most top names as I am redoing my system, they are the top two. I like them better than the AR ref stuff too. There is just something about them both that say music and built like a nice looking tank all at the same time, lol. I told John that you would probably be in touch. He said he's excited to speak with you to see what you are looking to do. He knows what goes best together as anyone on here who has worked with him will tell you. Let us know what you get in touch with him. Great luck. |
First official review of the PS Audio Directstream, http://www.audiophilia.com/wp/ |
I just remembered I bought a Rotel amp from John when I was in college. For John's sake, and mine, I refuse to say how long ago that was.... lol
Will call him today. Very curious as to what he has to say... |
We are all older Matt, lol. John will be the first to tell you that, lol. I just recently met him and he blew me away with his knowledge. He's in sales, but he gets it. He wants everyone happy with what they buy. I've seen him go out of his way to help people who have never and will never spend a dime in his store. I've been fortunate to get to know him a bit out of work (he's never really stops working) and he's just a good human being. That's why I stump for him on the board I think. I've met so many dirt bags in audio that it gets old. More awesome people though. He will let you tell him what you want and then guide you. I'd laugh if you ended up with AR or some other brand instead, lol. |
Ctsooner - Thanks for the reply. What's the reason you ended up buying Music Hall, not Ayre? Money? |
I also buy from John. A real gem. |
How many here buy from John? I ran into Mark and Billy when I was there and I wonder if I have run into anyone else? Matt, you'll have to meet us there next time I come down. |
Because the price was right. I sounds a bit better in the mids than my Krell. It works perfectly in my new Vandy Treo, Ayre system. I'd have to pay a ton more for Ayre, which would work great with my stuff, but it only has USB input and I use three digital inputs already. I LOVE the Ayre when I've heard it in a few different systems. If you heard what the Ayre gear sounded like on Vandy 3a's, you'd probably love what you heard. I think digital is changing rapidly, but I could live with what the Ayre does for years and years I'm sure. I have decided to take the money from selling off my gear and put it into vinyl I think. I have so much great music that needs to be cleaned and then played to be enjoyed. |
sorry for the late reply, I'm still on approval mode for my posts so it's easy to get distracted. I tube rolled the L4 lampi but not the big7. I did use the off ramp with the L4 and didn't notice a difference, or at least a 1500$ difference. So i sold it. But now regret it because my system has changed and I'd like to give it another chance with the Big 7 and my low watt and higher efficiency set up. |
Update:
Lampizator Big6 due to arrive 5/27
Rowland Aeris due to arrive 5/29 - I bought one on the 'gon instead of borrowing one. Price was too good to pass up.
PS Audio DirectStream due to ship 6/2
Accustic Arts DAC to arrive 6/4
OverDrive SE will ship 6/2, Hopefully to arrive by end of that week.
So all should be in house by 6/6.
I also have an offer for someone to bring over a Meitner MA1.
I will call Audio Connection Monday. |
Hi Matt, It looks like you have some very nice DACs coming for audition. Maybe you'd consider adding another one in the mix? DSD-SBest wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
@ Mattnshilp, wow!, This may turn out to be one of the most important imformative threads I have seen in digital in a long time, Keep us posted, cheers. |
Hey Matt, I just discovered your DAC thread... So I'll follow your exciting front-end adventure!
Saluti, Guido |
That's an impressive array of DACs! |
Can't wait for you to speak with Johnny. Maybe you can take them into his shop and do a shoot out. That could be very cool. |
Hi, I have a question, I live in Mobile,AL..., Does any one know who is Reputible and has a very quik turn around that is a technician shop near where I live?, I am looking to put Balanced connections on my Brand New cd-player, Thats all!, Really, an Hour Job at most, that said, I do not want to have my player sitting for weeks to get this done at somebody's shop, I understand they may have to order the Balanced connections, I believe this should only take two to three weeks to get it done, I got one price quoted to me of $150.00 which is a very fair price, and of course I would have to pay shipping both ways, I'm not looking to get this done for cheaper, Just the turn around time I am after, Thanks in advance. |
Why balanced if they won't be a true balanced? Does a balanced/non balanced connection still keep unwanted noise out? Just curious. thanks. |
Hi Ctsooner, I have two pairs of Balanced interconnects, My amp is Balanced only connections, and has Krell cast connections, one interconnect retailed for $2,800.00, the other interconnect retailed for $15,950.00 !!!, Both are one-meters long only,, Believe me when I say this, I do not want to send cables back to cable factory to reterminate one end, LOL!, an adapter is no where as good as a direct balanced connection on the player,no matter if the player is single ended circuitry, my amp is 100% balanced from input all the way to output, so does anyone have some advise where to send my player?, cheers. |
Does it have a digital output? Sounds like it just has rca's like every other CD player around (for the most part) |
Uhrn... Shouldn't this topic of single ended to XLR on CDp deserve its own thread? G. |
Probably. I just started to ask questions when I read it. Sorry. |
Update:
Lampy Big6 arrived today. It is in a far different class then my PS Perfectwave 2. So much more music and soul. Soundstage is expansive (is that a real word?) and it has no limits up top or down low. Vocals are stunning and it puts the performers right there in the room with me like the PW2 just couldn't.
With the Lampy here, I made a decision which I hope won't disappoint too many of you. I decided to cancel the order for the Accustic Arts DAC. The Lampy is stunning, and if I had to stop right here I would be happy forever. Shipping fees on the AA DAC coming and going were going to exceed $500- (they insisted on 3 day express) and the Lampy is so good that I feel comfortable not pursuing the AA. If shipping were not an issue, I'd still want to bring it in. Maybe John at Audio Connection can arrange an Aesthetix audition (I still haven't called him, been so busy). We shall see.
Although the differences between DAC's is evident and noticeable, they are still subtle compared to, say, the difference between pre-amps. I learned that I really need at least one more pair of ears to give everyone a reliable opinion...
I still have the PS Audio DirectStream, OverDrive SE and Aeris on the way; they are all solid state. I think I can easily find a keeper amongst those 4 (or 5 if I can hear the Aesthetix). |
Matt,
Congratulations on the LampizatOr DAC, it gets noticeably better as the hours of use accumulate. The other challenger DACs have quite a task ahead of them. The Aesthetix Romulus would be an interesting comparison The LampizatOr's strength is it simply reproduces music realistically.
Charles, . |
Bought the Big6 pre-owned. It has about 600-800 hours on it from what I understand. Currently listening to the stock tubes, but I got some to roll into as well. It's stunning in its stock form, so I can't wait to hear what it can do with other tubes.
I'm dying to hear how the Solid State contenders stack up. |
Great thread! Ya, the Romulus Signature or Pandora Signature is a must. Not sure if it is up to the Lampi, but very, very good. I had a Lampi 4 and like the Romulus more, but your Lampi is several models above! |
The Empirical Audio dac will be hard to beat and the comparison to the Lampi 6 will be interesting. If using a computer transport it would be best to have an Offramp 5 in front of the Lampi. The AE Offramp takes the Lampi to another level when using it with a computer. |
