Steve,
Dont understate your Off Ramp 5 tech. Even the guys at Rowland admit that their DAC sounds better using a USB source converted externally to SPDIF then using their internal USB converter. They demo the Aeris at shows running SPDIF across the room (due to USB's limited length of run) from a computer outputting USB converted through an Audiophilleo2 USB to SPDIF converter.
Would it "Crush" the ODSE if run with an Off Ramp 5? I don't think so. Would it be better then your ODSE, who knows? I think it would improve it beyond the performance I heard using its internal USB input, which is a complement to you either way...
But all of this has been said before, and acknowledged. In fact, more then one participant has added that the Big 6 would sound significantly better if I ran it with an Off Ramp5.
As I said before, feel free to do what you think would sound best and report it here. I'd love to hear the results. |
Matt,
My apologies. It has been a while, and you did reveal your source and purpose from the beginning. As you said, this is a search for your personal best, and what you discover may be a benefit to all of us, but you are not in the professional reviewers chair, and it is not your job to try a given DAC in every possible configuration.
Thanks for sharing all of your efforts. |
Roxy54, I really don't understand what you are saying, "I am also surprised that a transport was not being used at least as an alternative if not primary, since many don't use them any more." Should this not be either that a transport is being used or that transports are still being used by many?
I also used to greatly favor the SPDif over the USB, even asynchronous. Of course I thought Firewire was better yet, but now I am less offended by USB, especially with much better clocks. |
Matt, I understand your position, This is about what's best for you, I also understand you are not willing to spend the money for quality cables, A usb cable, no matter the cost is just inferior, and you are correct, A usb cable will not cost thousands of dollars, what I am saying though, Is you will NEVER achieve getting all the sound from the dac you can retrieve using any usb cable or DNLA, can you imagine all the cable companys that would go out of bussiness if a usb cable could out perform a world class spdif cable or analog interconnect?, I have enjoyed your thread, I appriciate what you have done here for all of us, Thankyou |
Matt, I could not have said it better myself.... You never asserted that you were going on a quest to discover the "best" digital front end.... You stated very clearly from the very beginning that you were trying to identify the DAC component that you prefered for your own system, cabling, and musical/sonic preference... I do not understand what is so difficult about this concept folks!
Just one minor correction... The Rowland team uses Aeris with SPDIF input because they prefer its sound/music than from USB wires of the same length and brand.... The ability of running longer lengths of wiring using SPDIF 75 Ohm coax without degradation is purely icing on the audible cake.
All... Whether Empirical on SPDIF would be preferable to Aeris in a prticular system and for a particular end user, or perhaps the opposite, Is something I will not venture to guess.... I have no direct experience with OD, and any such "beliefs" have no valid foundation without live experience in a controlled environment... But all of this remains a moot point, as Matt's front end feeds a USB protocol into the DAC, and will not change in the foreseeable future.
Besides, there is a new fascinating contender in Matt's grand quest... Alex's APL DSD... Let us see how Matt likes it once it stabilizes completely.... Matt, I am very much looking forward to your well thought findings... Alex, what do you expect to be the complete break-in time for your lovely DAC?
Saluti, Guido
|
Matt
What if the DSD is better than the Dac you purchased? |
Tbg,
I didn't state it clearly. What I meant was that I wouldn't have expected it to be used as a primary source since so many don't use transports anymore, although I do.
Sorry for the confusion. |
Steve, as we both know, S/PDIF is a very jittery interface when it comes to a Master Clock recovery. Synchronous or asynchronous re-clocking techniques have been long ago implemented to remedy the issue. So yes, S/PDIF can sound really good too.
Guido, the TAS1020 used as an USB interface inside the Aeris is an older chip that cannot process more than 96kHz PCM rates. So maybe this is the reason they prefer S/PDIF connection.
When it comes to DSD-S break-in, I have sent one that had at least 700 hours to a customer in Canada. He claims that it continues to improve. :-)
Best wishes,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
The other interesting part, if I may add, is that Aeris and ODSE probably use the same Analog Devices DAC chip - the AD1853, except if Steve hasn't gone for the flagship AD1955, but those are the two choices for the ODSE. :-)
So it would have been indeed interesting trying the Aeris with a modern USB to S/PDIF interface, though I personally believe that it still will not be up to the ODSE, IMO of course.
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Matt,I did not mean to open up a can of worms asking if a transport was being used in the sound-off. It would have been something that would have been of great intrest to me...seeing that I am old school. Your work is indeed much appreciated and everyone here could agree with that comment. Keep up the great work and most of all...have fun with it!!!
Mark |
Hey Matt, I appreciate what you have done, and have read all as time has passed.
The USB input for any of these DAC's is the factor that determines the final outcome, using your source. This is obvious. I believe all the DAC's you have tried here are fully capable of being transparent. There are all too many DAC's out there that do not get the USB input right. Even DAC's that cost over $10K.
Being that PC or MAC is likely the main source for the masses, I feel you are exposing this shortcoming in these DAC's, and these companies need to get with it. Not that you are, but don't get discouraged by the few posters here that have not made the move to computer audio sources. They also need to get with it IMO.
Another REALLY great DAC with a remarkable USB input is the Auralic Vega. It is not the newest on the block, and the snobs here will have their opinions of that it is not in the same class.... But they really did get the USB input right on this DAC. Not to mention the DAC itself is just wonderful. I've compared this DAC to many DAC's. MANY! I feel that it would compete and likely beat many you have tried here. Says allot about this company being this would be the cheapest one you have yet tried. The only shortcoming with the Vega are the RCA outputs. They are not using the same discrete output that the balanced outputs are, and the difference here is not subtle. You are balanced so no worries. I urge you to try this DAC, just so you can see what is possible with a $3500 DAC done right. |
Agreed.
I propose that ALL manufacturers establish the Off Ramp 5 (or whatever Steve's latest and greatest USB converter is) as their USB input processing of choice so that this is no longer an issue!!!
I am sure Steve would agree.
:) |
I propose that ALL manufacturers establish the Off Ramp 5 (or whatever Steve's latest and greatest USB converter is) as their USB input processing of choice so that this is no longer an issue!!! The one that requires a driver for MAC because it is based on the older Cypress Semiconductor chip? Maybe when he offers XMOS based USB interface that supports 32 bit integer mode, up to 384kHz/32bit PCM as well as DSD64 and double DSD128 I'd consider joining ALL manufactures and use it in my products as a standard USB input. Wait, but I already have it! :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
You are correct Alex, Aeris does not support bit rates greater than 96K under USB input... However, It has been reported to me that Aeris is preferable with SPDIF input over USB for material that is supported by both input protocols... On the other hand, my X-01 seems to have only SPDIF output, so I cannot verify the assertion in my own system.
I am not surprised that break-in time for your DSD might exceed 700 hours... I have observed the same with Aeris... I hope that Matt will be able to afford enough break-in time to stabilize DSD completely.... And then assess his preferences against OD, and... Aeris... Unless Aeris has been sold by then *Sighs!*.
G. |
Guido,
USB and S/PDIF are quite different interfaces. Though the TAS USB chip in the Aeris supports only up to 96k, I believe it also supports asynchronous mode. However, it looks like both S/PDIF and USB are being asynchronously resampled using the AD1895A ASRC chip. So maybe the USB chip is the problem, or the computer audio source used for the comparison was inferior to the S/PDIF source.
So it is tricky. :-)
Sure, I will let Matt stabilize it and then decide, no problem. But most interesting will be what will happen when the DSD-S is connected direct to the amplifiers.
Saluti,
Alex |
Question for we lay people....why would breakin of any DAc be more than 200 hours? I've spoken to many manufacturers as well as engineers and have been told that the biggest thing to break in are the capacitors and that even with the amount of silver used etc...they shouldn't need more than 200 hours to break in.
Are these folks mislead? Thanks. |
"Steve, as we both know, S/PDIF is a very jittery interface when it comes to a Master Clock recovery."
Alex - That used to be the case, but with the latest receiver chips, good transformers, good circuit design/layout and a good 75 ohm cable, it is just as transparent as a good USB interface. I am using right now my prototype Off-Ramp 6 XMOS interface driving my DAC with S/PDIF coax and its the best digital I have ever heard. Beats everything I have done previously. It matches my I2S for performance too.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Matt - I actually offered my USB interface module to a couple of big manufacturers. It was not cheap, but not overly expensive either. They were too cheap to even try one. They are pinching pennies trying to eek out as much profit as possible. Those marketing guys don't come cheap and neither do the ads.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Steve,
My digital products have been featuring custom proprietary 32 bit XMOS interfaces for almost 2 years now.
PCM, PCM and DSD, and DSD only versions are available.
The DSD-S has the XMOS inside, and features the so called "Femto Clocks" too.
Welcome on board, I am happy for you!
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Keep in mind. My comments about USB inputs refers to all I have heard up to this point (NOT including the DSD-S, which I have yet to evaluate). To my ears, in my system, the ODSE is the best DAC I have heard thus far. I can not determine if that is due to the improved USB processing or just a better DAC with better parts and design. Who knows. Since I have no interest in SPDIF, I don't care. It sounds amazing and I am just giving it the credit it deserves.
Abruce - If I like the DSD better, then I will wait for Steve's newer mods and try them on my current ODSE (which is still stilling in its boxes) to see which performs better. At the end of the day, I'm not married to Steve and his Over Drive DAC. The point of my thread is to find the best DAC for 16/44 I can. If the DSD-S bests the ODSE (even with the upcoming upgrades) then I will sell my ODSE and go for a DSD-S. But lets wait until I actually LISTEN to the DSD-S to see how it is before we jump the gun….
The DSD-D does DSD, which the ODSE does not. But I have no interest in DSD as a source (for now).
I will let Alex explain better, but the DSD product converts all its input (PCM as well) immediately to DSD like the Direct Stream and all of Meitner's gear.
I am looking forward to Wednesday to take my first listen.
Unfortunately, with a brand new ODSE comes the need to really burn it in. Which means at least 3-4 weeks of constant play to get what I heard from the demo unit. With my added week, the DSD-S that I have will have a total of about 468 hours on it. Which means even the DSD still needs an additional 10 days more burn in to get to 700h.
I am thinking I will cook the DSD-S for the additional 10 days first. Then let it sit on the shelf for the month and burn in my new ODSE. Then, I'll run the DSD-S for a 24h run before comparing the two directly. I won't know which is better until they are both fully broken in and being played head to head.
I hope Alex is willing for me to hold onto the unit for 45 more days to really give it the chance it deserves… He has been very generous thus far.
If there is one thing I have learned with this project, its that these single guys (Lampy, Empirical, APL) REALLY know how to make gear and what you pay for is the best damn gear you can get instead of marketing/advertising/overhead.
My amps are the same. Merrill Audio makes ridiculously good gear! My amps are just off the chart good!
What a crazy hobby!!! |
oops.
"The DSD-D does DSD, which the ODSE does not. But I have no interest in DSD as a source (for now). "
that should say DSD-S |
Hi Matt, any chance of you performing break-in of OD and DSD-S in parallel? Would shorten the total process.... E.g. If your MacMini were capable of engaging two USB outs at a time.... Or you fed one device via MacMini and the other via any other source, like a cheap computer or CDp.... The outputs of Both DACs would need to be connected to an active load.... But your Criterion has plenty of spare inputs.... For the purpose of break-in, it really should not matter the quality of the connecting cables....
One of the side benefits is that that you might be able to engage the devices for more than a total of 700 hours each.... And still take less time than your estimate.
G. |
I hope Alex is willing for me to hold onto the unit for 45 more days to really give it the chance it deserves… He has been very generous thus far. Perhaps you can do your part to try to reduce that time. Regards, |
I have been through this as well guys....
I can't connect more then one DAC to my Mac at a time. It won't link to 2 at once. I have no other USB digital source to use to burn in a second DAC.
It's one at a time. No other choice....
I'll speak to Alex privately to arrange things. I might be able to get it to a reviewer I know for the 4 weeks that the ODSE cooks so it's not just sitting.
Alex seamed to be ok with me holding onto it for a bit tho. He seams to be a really good guy. |
Hi Alex, in Aeris, jitter removal is executed in an FPGA rather than inside the DAC.
BTW, my own system has the opposite limitation of Matt's... only supported digital out from my battle-hardened X-01 seems to be SPDIF.
Cari saluti, G. |
some rather acidic commentary over on the Asylum regarding this thread. A thread about a thread! Now that's notoriety!
"Ultimate DAC shootout on Audiogon" |
Hi Alex, Are you saying that your DSD-S sounds better running direct to amplifiers?, you have a volume control on it?, explain what type of volume control it has, and how it benefits over a pre-amp. |
Hi AGear, somehow the URL of the AA thread in question did not make it to your post... Mind reposting it?
Thanks, G. |
08-04-14: Guidocorona
Hi AGear, somehow the URL of the AA thread in question did not make it to your post... Mind reposting it? Tried before but failed. You can Google it. I have always found it interesting to observe the little subcultures that develop in various sites. Most seem to look down their noses at their counterparts...:/ |
Hi Guido,
Yes, the Aeris has the FPGA but also the AD1895A asynchronous sample rate converter connected to it.
Sure, I understand that your only digital source is the S/PDIF output of the X-01.
To be honest with you, the X-01 requires some redesign work in order to become a good sounding digital transport, at least to my standards. It is also possible converting the X-01 to a CD/SACD transport that will work with the DSD-S via proprietary digital connection.
CD data is converted to double DSD128, while SACD is native DSD64.
The audio quality achieved is quite nice. :-)
Saluti,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Look Ma, I'm famous!!!!
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/digital/messages/17/172891.html |
|
Hi Alex, Are you saying that your DSD-S sounds better running direct to amplifiers?, you have a volume control on it?, explain what type of volume control it has, and how it benefits over a pre-amp. Hi, What I am saying is that the non-negative feedback pure class-A MOSFET output of the DSD-S is more powerful than any preamp I am aware of and can drive any power amp direct without a problem. The built in hybrid attenuator with 0.5dB step is completely lossless and offers exceptional sound quality. The DSD-S does not sound better running direct to amplifiers, your system will sound better without the preamp. :-) Best wishes, Alex Peychev APL Hi-Fi |
Aplhifi-usa, Alex, I am confused here, did you make a clerical error?, you said, The DSD-S does not sound better running direct to amplifiers.., Then you said,Your system will sound better without the pre-amp, mmmm, which is it? |
Audiolabyrinth,
Sorry about the confusion!
Initially you've asked if DSD-S sounds better direct to amplifiers.
What I tried explaining is that, it is not a feature of the DSD-S to sound better when connected to amplifiers. It sounds as it does regardless of where it is connected.
But with its output stage and built-in attenuator, the DSD-S is perfectly capable of eliminating any preamplifier, except if you need the additional analog inputs (or phono stage built-in), or you like the added coloration/noise/distortions of the preamplifier.
Bottom line, if you have only digital sources, you don't really need a preamplifier with the DSD-S. This will result in purer audio signal path that may be beneficial for many audio systems.
Hope this explains it better. :-)
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Aplhifi-usa, by "built-in attenuator" I assume you are speaking of a tiny device that controls volume rather than a pot. If so, in my experience such devices are nowhere near a quality pot. My BMC has such a device and sounds much superior when set with it out of the circuit and the pot of the Koda K 10 used. Maybe, however, I am wrong about what you are using. |
Tbg, I totally agree with you that a regular quality pot brings much better results compared to tiny devices.
Not sure if this will make any sense to you, but the attenuator in the DSD-S is a hybrid one and controlled by "tiny devices" too. However, the sound quality achieved has been tested against quality pots to make sure there is no loss of a sound quality.
Sorry, I cannot elaborate further, but thought you'd be happy to hear that the DSD-S hybrid attenuator does not sacrifice the superb audio quality of a good pot, step attenuator or a TVC.
Hope this explains it, at least to some point.
Best,
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi |
Anyone listen to the new Berkeley DAC? |
Matt is still searching: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1407182972&read&3&zzlKetcham&&
I don't blame him. Sounds like an engineering tour de force. |
His search will NEVER end! Seems Matt is more interested in equipment than muzic. |
APlhifi-usa, Hi Alex, thankyou for the post to me, this is exciting news, I got rid of pre-amps many, many years ago!, I run direct to amplifiers now with my digital, interesting technology about your volume control, I have seen over the last couple of years the digital sources running direct to amps, and pre-amps close the gap of performance because technology with volume controls have got alot better, I do not have a record collection, although I love the sound of analog, I do not have other sources, I will be building a second system for multiple sources at a latter time, I have cables for the second system now, currently, I am still building my main system, the digital I have now is quite engageing for what it is, it is temporary, this cd-player will go on second system, I love the sound of it, however, I want a world class digital componet to run direct to my amp to keep the signal intact and as pure as I can get, The ODSE and your APL DSD-S fits the bill for running direct, that is my sole purpose of keeping up with this thread, so Alex, what transport do you recommend for your DSD-S dac?, thankyou. |
Rsf507 - if your going to insult me, don't do it right on my thread....
Actually it's funny. I decided a while ago that what I want to accomplish is in my hands. I would have been done with my ODSE very happily. The DSD is in my room because Alex offered. But I'm glad he did.
I had discussed DAC's with Ketcham when I started my thread. We spoke many times. The Allnic intrigued me back then but it wasn't available yet.
At the level I am currently at, if I can't get a unit in my room to listen, I'm not going to consider it. I have my wonderful ODSE. And look forward to giving the DSD a good listen. If the Allnic or Romulus find their way into my room for a listen I'm happy to hear them, but I'm not desperate.
My stereo is the best it's ever been. Speakers, pre-amp, amp, cables, power conditioning, rack, source (Mac mini) - all thrilled and not looking further. SO close to there with the DAC. More like trying to re-affirm my decision then anything else.
My electrician is coming over today to run 2 dedicated 20 amp lines (one for amps, one for all else). And I was just lent some great acoustic panels to help clean up my rooms reflections a bit.
Contrary to RSF's brilliant observation (because he knows me so well), I am actually crazy close to having my dream system complete. Most of you have truly helped me along; thank you.
Yes, I still have a few DAC's in the running. But I'm at the level where any on my list would make me happy for a very long time.
Report to come later today. |
08-06-14: Mattnshilp
Rsf507 - if your going to insult me, don't do it right on my thread.... Your thread? This is a PUBLIC forum so members can post positive or negative comments. |
Omg guys!
What's going on????
When I say "my thread" it means one I started and constantly read.
Am I missing something here? Did I piss someone off and not notice it?
Everyone take a deep breath, and let's leave the High School immaturity to the kids in High School....
For those who are interested in audio equipment and music, please read on. |
Matt, off topic for sure but what acoustic panels are you borrowing? I just added some Vicoustic Cinema Round panels for my 1st reflection points and I am amazed at the improvement in bass, clarity, and soundstaging. Ive got some RealTraps Mondo Bass Traps coming next week as well. I am excited to hear the changes. |
Still Point Apertures.
I was lent them by Merrill.
My room is shared with my wife so I can't do anything permanent or wall hanging.
I can put the Apertures on wood stands and set them up when I'm listening. But I haven't had time to do it yet since I need to build the stands.
I SO wish I had a dedicated room!!!!
Tboooe - keep us all posted. I think room treatment is the missing like in many of our rooms, mine probably worst of all! Sigh.
We do what we can in search of the elusive musical magic moments. |
Missing link. Not missing like. |
matt, you are doing a fine job!, this has been a wonderfull thread to me, a great learning exsperience as well, alot of the brands you have brought to the table were unheard of to me, I'm an ex musician, so do not take this the wrong way, This thread is cool!, Bravo and cheers to matt!, Thankyou for taking YOUR time out of your life to do this thread, you, by no means did not have to share this journey, I will never forget this thread! |
I doubt you can do better and anything near its price than the PS Audio Direct Stream DAC. Mine is just burning in and it is, in a word, breathtaking. This from a listener who started on digital with the Magnavox CDB 650, first 16 bit player, back in 1986. Just one man's opinion, but there are few components I have found so impressive.
Neal |
Neal, Matt already tried the DS DAC and eliminated it from the competition. Come on man, keep up with the thread! ;~) Seriously though performance is very dependent upon system matching and personal preferences, and I know you're not alone in liking the DS DAC! |
