I like to look at the pictures and descriptions of the various systems belonging to our fellow Audiogon members. Personally I admire the most humble system. But some times I see one that just leaves me shaking my head in amusement.
I was looking at the featured systems today and found one that consisted of three components that reproduced music. A cd player ($7700), a integrated amp. ($4000), a pair of speakers ($10,500). Total $22000. A very nice system. But, and I mean BUT, another $71,431 in cables, tweaks, stands. Things that sometimes in the tiniest increments help in the reproduction of music.
If you sent 3 people into an audio shop with a selection of equipment and asked them to put a system together, I would put my money on none of them ending up with the same system. Cables are the same. And they are all right of course, assuming that you are looking at it from their point of view.
Who cares ? It is the monies of this particular individual (as it is with all of us), and he/she can spend it any way he or she chooses. And if this individual hears and appreciates it all, so be it. That's high end audio for ya ! FYI, one of my "secondary" systems is based around a very clean and functioning NAD 3020 amp, and the amp is the least expensive part of the system. Now I know I can upgrade the amp ( and actually have other amps, amp/pre amps around I can use ), but instead I have opted to upgrade other parts of the system. So what ! Just my two cents....Thank you
Onhwy61, Yes, I don't like yours. I like mine better, I made better choices, you should have bought what I bought. But, since your signature indicates a liking of Bob Dylan, I'll give you a seal of approval just the same.
And again, I believe that cables, sometimes, can improve a system. That is why I don't use zip cord.
Based on your post it seems what you did to improve your system makes sense. Now if you paid $2500 a 1 meter pair throughout your system, which what little you told us, it would add up to $5000. If that were true than my personal belief is, that since the idea is to get better sound, zip cord plus better equipment would be more bang for the buck. But, the amount you spent wouldn't fall into that category. It was well spent.
There is a great analogy to this statement; "Using better components or keeping said components and improving them with wires or other tweaks".
You can find numerous other hobbies where people are willing to spend tons of money on an older product or upgrade to another product altogether. In the Corvette automobile racing or street mods world where I dwell quite often, you will see people adding cams, blowers, every fiberglass bolt on known to man and listed in Mid America Corvette catalog. Some of these mods have real benefits for the normal driver, others, well a radical and lopey cam for the street, or C6R racing wing for high speed track use, do not. But, the owners choose to mod their car and tweak it to suit their own personal taste and desires, regardless of the age of the car. I have seen people buy newer corvettes to get the latest and greatest version of Corvette, the ZR1 and Z06 are great performers in the segment in which they compete, and others, who decide that their older version modded to the hilt are what is best for them. In our Corvette club, some members do race, including myself. Some like to mod and show off, and others prefer stock. As you can guess, people who mod are putting money into their car and most do not care about the majority of the populace being overly concerned about their decision, or how much money they threw away and will not get back if they decide to sell or race their Corvette. So, if someone chooses to mod the heck out of their system with cables, tubes, fuses, or whatever, and throw money at their system for their own pleasure, I think that is great on them. Yeah, you might still come across systems where you might ask yourself, "what is that mod all about or that mod does what", but you should appreciate the fact that someone else is willing to explore and try unknown and unlikely combinations for the rest of us to see and or hear about.
I am still trying to figure out how to hook up $20,000 cables to a $99 all in one music box. I think the all in one has some "exotic" connectors and the cables will need to be sliced and diced to fit correctly, yeah, that's it. Ciao, Audioquest4life
Agaffer, it seems to me going reading through the thread that it morphed into a simple observation by you in your opening into yet another thread about cables and their value vs price. I tend to agree in general with this theory. On the other hand I do not believe it is always the case.
The only point I attempted to make is that I "bought into" ic cables that retail for 2,500.00 a 1 meter pair throughout the system. The further point is that they DID make a significant difference (read improvement) after doing numerous controlled comparisons over an extended period of time, years, with cables at different price points. I was willing to pay what I did at the time though it certainly wasn't retail. The part about letting the music through without a signature that was obvious, a clarity that was different than what I had previously experienced, an epiphany moment. Maybe there is something out there comparable to what these cables do in my system at a much cheaper price but at the time I sure didn't find it. I don't consider myself irrational with ANY expenditures, least of all audio, and can certainly afford whatever I'm willing to spend. Again, you put down your money and live with your choices. It always has been less about the gear to me than getting a desired result.
"Cables are just like religion. Everyone believes they have the right one."
I believe this is a naive statement Elizabeth. I personally don't believe in the "right" anything but to the person that is willing to lay down the green. There are always synergy and taste issues with everything.
I do believe with the majority that so far as putting together a truly musically satisfying system the components should be first and foremost, that is where the major focus should start. The real truth is found in the satisfaction we find in listening to the music we love. Accessories whether they be vibration isolation, room treatments, cables, powercords, upgraded capacitors, tubes etc. can all contribute in no small way towards what we hear.
I've got a system that has essentially the same components for the past 8 years. The foundation was there to build on. The improvements realized (listening enjoyment) to this system has been gradual and significant, a cummulative effect. It is quite satisfying to me to have come to this point without getting the upgrade bug but REALIZING the major components work together no doubt, you know and go from there. This is experience, this is knowing from previous trial and error. It can't be taken away regardless of what others have experienced, you know what you have learned from where you were to where you are. You learn what works and what doesn't. You find out about the snake oil products and the ones that are worth your dollars and you make your choices. It isn't about religion at all, it is really nothing more than a personal journey to find what each of us is looking for. I can't qualify what someone should spend on a pair of cables, or a powercord for that matter. I would only say listen to as many as you can which is what I did and settle for the ones that work best. What works in one system may not in another but if someone is foolish enough to spend a disproportionate amount on cables and powercords rather than spent wisely on the actual components that make the music, its their choice. Possibly knowledge will be gained from such folly. Bottom line tweeking is where it ends, not starts but unless you have gone down this road, don't discount what can be achieved, you might be quite suprised.
I KNOW I have purchased wisely. I could resell my pre-amp, amplifier and turntable easily for what I originally paid. My cd transport a JVC 1050TN I've had for 20 years and its great, paid 800.00 new, solid and dependable. It was highly regarded in its day and still is in my book. My DAC is under 1K new, it is a NOS DAC with a tube output, no opamp, it is simply amazing for the money. I'm sure not ready to plunk down 5k on what I know would be better but not by much. The i.c. and speaker cables would take somewhat of a hit but even then I purchased at a good price, less than retail but I have had them for 6 years with no desire to upgrade, its finished and I am as happy today as when I purchased them. Power cords, 300.00 pair max. each. Speakers are 10 year old Merlin VSM-M that keep rising to the occasion, I might upgrade to the latest Merlin in the future but I keep reconsidering because it is hard for me to believe that the new ones could be too much better than what I'm hearing. The rest of the tweeks including homebrewed bass traps, isolation platforms and vibration control devices, Stillpoint speaker stands my Custom David Berning designed tube BAM to augument the bass frequencies with the VSM have all been money well spent not to mention cap upgrades in my pre-amp along with numerous tube combinations to find the best mix for my tastes and goals.
Agaffer, I already have great cables now... Crimson R.M. Music Link cables, one of the very few cable brands on the world market that don't have a sound of their own !
Thanks, HiFisoundguy but, I'm not looking for speakers at the moment. I'll be sure and not pass up a chance to audition them should I see them somewhere.
"How can anyone say.. you could have done better when you have not even listened to these new improved 901's yet? "
Doesn't matter what speaker, amp, preamp, TT, etc. you buy or like someone will let you know that you could have done better. Don't fight it, you will never convince other audiophiles that you made the right decision. When I bought my last speakers my budget was anything under $30,000 and because I travel a lot I auditioned every thing I could. If I touted what I choose believe me there would be easily a dozen posts telling me why I should have bought whatever they owned instead.
The important thing is that you buy cables that make them really stand out. Sell your car if you have to.
I find it amusing, that you've chosen this thread through which to pander those....., oh well! Perhaps you feel you can find a more deaf group here, than on the TAS site?( http://www.avguide.com/forums/the-new-and-improved-bose-901-series-6-mk2s )
Agaffer, BUT have you heard these latest BOSE 901's? These new 901's have had a lot improvements done to them....more than 650 from what bose told me. They don't even use the same speaker drivers anymore. How can anyone say.. you could have done better when you have not even listened to these new improved 901's yet? When you get the time.. go listen to some and please let us know what you think about these BOSE 901's.......
Just yanking your chain, Rok2id. I could tell you had a sense of humor.
Back in the olden days when I was in college, 901s were coveted by lots of people. I envied my friends that could afford them. I have nothing against them. They have shortfalls but, most speakers do.
Usually when someone puts them down it is accompanied with, "for the price you can do better." Again, true of every speaker. No matter what you chose someone is going to let you know that you could have done better. Besides, with just the right wire and tweaks they can become giant killers. For the price though, you could have done better.
Agaffer, new improved BOSE 901 series 6 version 2's just came out 5 months ago. I think they are one of the best bargains on the market right now. I have been at CES shows over the years and listened to a lot speakers and I would not trade my new BOSE 901's for any of them...period! I like my 901's with the speakers turned around backwards a lot better and they sound best with the speakers only 12 inches off the floor too. I know, people on these forums just.. LOVE to badmouth these BOSE 901's BUT these new 901's are not the same old 901's you have heard in the past!.. These 901 speakers are the ones you keep for life !.. A FUTURE CLASSIC....
Frogman, thank you for the reasonable explanation for a reason to allocate so much to tweaks and cables. You put reasoning was well put forth.
As to the system I am referring to, I suspect it really is in the owners imagination, I didn't add it up but, I think he listed more cables, powercords, conditioners, plugs than he had equipment to attach them to.
You can easily find his system as it consists of no pictures of the complete system instead there is a picture of some boxers. It may be real but, I doubt it.
As to the point of the discussion, because we like to discuss. That's why you added your discussion to the thread. And, sometimes it makes us stop and think in new directions.
I literally worked all over the world including many 3rd world countries. To the vast majority of the world's population spending $93.00 on a stereo would be extravagant. But, you keep missing the point. We aren't giving our thoughts on total cost of our hobby we are discussing what gives the better improvement for the same cost. Using better components or keeping said components and improving them with wires or other tweaks.
One of my friends owns Vee Jay records and one of the largest hotel chains in the world and recently purchased a new system from the ground up. I would never remark to him on the total cost, days wages at best for him, none of my business and I love to stop in and hear it. But, if I saw it for the first time and found out that his audio dealer talked him into a Sony Disc-man, Sherwood RD7502 receiver,Polk Audio TSI300 loudspeakers and then added in $100,000 worth of stands, conditioners, and wire telling him he now had the best $100,000 plus system that the dealer could put together...... Damn right I would say something, as soon as I got up from the floor from laughing.
But, that's me. If someone can recommend how to make a $1000 speaker sound as good or better than something like the Wilson Sasha, or Vandersteen 5A or any speaker like them I am all ears and willing to announce my ignorance.
I just don't get the point of these discussions. I, personally, would not spend that kind of money on tweaks, and wire; I am too cheap for that, and that is no indication of wether I feel they are worth the money or not. But, can I envision a scenario where someone has put together a well chosen set of components whose basic sound he/she really likes AND HAS GOTTEN TO REALLY KNOW/UNDERSTAND (!!!), and then proceeds to spend (over time) as much or more on wire and tweaks, to eek out as much performance as possible from them? You bet! Is that a valid approach? You bet!
Example: I own (among others) a pair of Stax F-81 electrostatic speakers. To my ears (and I have listened to a whole lot of speakers over the years) there is no other speaker that has a midrange like the Stax. Some may disagree, but to these ears, that midrange comes closer to the sound that I want, than any other speaker. I want that sound, and am willing (most of the time, which is why I own other speakers) to put up with the Stax's problems, and limitations. So, I have built a system around those speakers. In spite of my frugality, the cables/tweaks in my system cost much more than the Stax's do. Am I nuts for doing that? I don't think so. I have been able to elevate the sound of that fabulous midrange to even higher levels by judicious (I think) choices in cabling and tweaks. End result is a sound that I don't think I could have gotten by allocating that money for any other, more expensive speakers.
I know of so many cases where the audiophile churns equipment constantly, the whole while kidding himself about wether he is getting TRULY better sound by tieng it all together with this and that cable/tweak. End result: mediocre sound.
Agaffer, let's make this conversation really interesting: why don't you name the member who's system you referred to in your OP? Maybe he is following this thread. If so, whoever you are, chime in, and share with us the reasoning behind your choices.
Agaffer, you're talking about a $93,000 stereo system. It's inherently ridiculous to the overwhelming majority of music lovers worldwide just because it costs $93,000. It doesn't matter how the money was allocated. You seem to think there's a more rational, better value oriented way to spend $93,000 on a 2 channel stereo? Explain how that works to the average working/middle class family.
Elizabeth, totally irrelevant. He wasn't driving on the highway -- he was driving on the shoulder of the highway!
If this guy has his house paid off, a solid retirement fund, money set aside for his kid's college fund etc, who am I to criticize the way his spends his money on audio. Just because one disagrees with how he allocated his resources doesnÂ’t make him wrongÂ…just a difference of opinion.
No criticism regarding total cost, just a discussion about what would sound better.
Speaker(A)+wire(W) that cost more than speaker. (A) + (W) = C for total cost.
or
Speaker (B) that equals (C) + zip-cord (Z).
Would that make the question: is (B+Z )> (A+W), is (B+Z)< (A+W), or is (B+Z)=(A+W). My head is spinning.
Why does it have to be a criticism or argument. This is a hobby. My biggest hobby is surfing and when surfers discuss best equipment or surf spots I never here the kind of defensive nonsense audiophiles seem to throw out. Someone having different thoughts than you shouldn't raise your hackles.
I love music reproduction, and I admit to loving the equipment as much as the music it makes. When I lived in California I tried to go to as many of the Orange County/Los Angeles audio club functions as possible. But, like it or not, there is a very high nerd factor in this hobby that you don't find in things like car hobbiest, or surfing, or marshal arts, the only other hobbies I participate in. I openly admit that I am fascinated by observing the apoplectic fits that can be solicited in some audiophiles if you even suggest that you have a difference of opinion.
If you're driving down the interstate and the speed limit is 70mph, but you're going 85mph, do you really have the right to call the guy who passes you at 95mph a maniac? There's an element of absurdity here as people with ridiculously expensive systems criticize other peoples' even more ridiculously expensive systems.
"long ago, in a different age, when men who were truth seekers ruled the world of audio, it was said that the perfect Amp would be a straight piece of wire with gain. Think about the im[plications of that statement. What does it say about WIRE?"
I dunno, that wire has no gain? That truth seekers morphed into BS artists? I dunno, what does it say about wire?
Inna, such a gentleman. Resorting to bullying,shouting, personal attacks always shows the depth of one's argument.
Perhaps I should have said, "If YOU can't HEAR the differences; SAVE YOUR MONEY!" I was responded to the OP's camment about wire's contribution to the sound of as system being so, "minimal."
Elizabeth, it is precisely because of your distorted philosophy that you do not have $100k for stereo. Nor do you really need them since you wouldn't hear most of what that system would be capable of. But you are very stubborn and keep pushing this nonsense around here. I think you may be a little tired of that. Cables, isolation and power devices can easily run 20%-30% the entire cost. A lot depends on prices you get when buying used or even new, complexity of the system, lengths of the cables required and ability and willingness to hear things. So if you wish to use your MBL dream speakers with cheap Kimber wires it's certainly your choice. But your opinion on this matter has no real value whatsoever.
long ago, in a different age, when men who were truth seekers ruled the world of audio, it was said that the perfect Amp would be a straight piece of wire with gain. Think about the im[plications of that statement. What does it say about WIRE?
Agaffer, I agree with you without qualification. The cables that I currently use throughout my system were not "cheap" per se, but they work much better in my system than several others that cost substantially more. It seems that sometimes it ends up being dumb luck, and not the amount of money spent that determines a good system match.
06-02-11: Islandmandan Many, or most it seems, of the members of (another) site are electrical engineers. So, there are many adherents to the philosophy that cables don't make any difference, as long as the basic requirements for adequate transmission of the signal is met.
I am a highly experienced electrical engineer/electronics designer and manager (not in audio), and I for one certainly would not make that assertion. What I would assert, though, is that there is no reason to expect anything more than a very weak degree of correlation between the price of a cable or tweak, and its sonic performance in any given system.
I say that partly based on technical grounds (I will spare everyone the couple of pages or so that it would take to adequately explain that), and partly based on opinions that have been expressed here and elsewhere by other audiophiles who are not technically oriented, but whose opinions I highly respect, and which are based on very extensive relevant experience.
Two conclusions follow from that, IMHO:
1)If the owner of the system that was referred to in the OP had utilized the same active components and speakers but focused the very extensive amount of time and experimentation he has invested in developing his system on relatively inexpensive cables and tweaks, he might very well have achieved comparable or even better results.
2)If he had allocated the $93,431 such that most of it went into speakers and components, while investing a similar amount of time and experimentation into relatively low priced cables and tweaks, assuming that he made good choices of components and speakers he would almost certainly have achieved better results.
The bottom line, IMHO: With some minor qualifications that aren't worth mentioning, I am in essential agreement with the comments made above by Agaffer, Marakanetz, Orpheus10, Plato, Rok2id, Islandmandan, and Rrog.
There are believers and there are those so obsessed with something in all walks of life that there are few limits.
Then there are also those who profit and make a living by promoting a way for others to achieve their ideals.
If someone buys into whatever, what difference does it make what I think about what someone else chooses to spend their money on? IT's their money and their choice. Needless to say, we all will chose differently and most will find contentment within more modest means, at least that is my hope.
No one paid attention so far that that person had spent $4k on amplification and $7.7k on digital. Now that's bullshit. Speakers are $10.5k so amplification should be close enough to that.
I just have to weigh in here. A few months back, there was a raging controversy on the Hilberink Tannoy site, so much so, in fact, the subject was banned from all further discussion. The object of all this heated debate was some Russian speaker cables that were reputed to sound as good, or better, than even the most expensive cables out there.
Many, or most it seems, of the members of that site are electrical engineers. So, there are many adherents to the philosophy that cables don't make any difference, as long as the basic requirements for adequate transmission of the signal is met.
So, naturally, I purchased a set. From Lithuania, they cost me $57 including shipping. Since this was on the cheap, I bought plain copper spade lugs from my local Ace hardware, and soldered them on. I think my Cardas solder cost more than the cables.
Anyway, I have used them to drive my custom Tannoy HPD 315's, with a VAC PA 35.35, and my Sophia Baby amp. My determination is they sound every bit as good as my $1400 Synergistic Research Resolution Reference FX speaker cables. Maybe the naysayers are right.
I'm not looking to ignite a conflagration here, as it would be rather pointless.
Roxy, I do think you can improve a system, somewhat, with wire. Oddly enough, it is one of the few things in audio where some of the less expensive ones make a bigger difference than the more expensive ones.
Most products in our hobby increase in performance with price. Not always but, most. Speakers grouped in the $2000 level don't out perform the ones grouped in the $12000 level for instance. One thing I know with all certainty is that nobody can take speakers in the $2000 level add $10000 of speaker cable and have the sound of a $12000 speaker. But you can turn a $2000 level speaker into a $12000 speaker by selling them and spend the money on speakers in the $12000 range.
Agaffer, I saw your point in the OP, but now I think you are swinging too far in the other direction. For the average person with limited funds and other things in life to think about, choosing sanely priced cables that work well with your system is more serendipity than science, but if you are lucky enough to stumble on the right combo, there is certainly more than a minimal difference.
I just know that if I spent $71k on audio cables that in 3 months some enterprising company would come out with cables for only $35k that sounded better.
I hope that at least this fellow had the good sense to internally rewire all his components with the same wire and to change all the connectors to the same kind/brand as well.
Maybe it's just me but, I am pretty sure, no almost sure, no absolutely without question sure, that were I to take $93,631 dollars and put it into a very good cd player, a very very good integrated amp or pre amp and amps, and a pair of very, very, very good speakers. Hooked it all up with zip cord. Properly "tweaked" the speaker placement and added any room needed room treatments....
Well, you can see where this is going. I believe wires make a difference but, it is so far down the line in regards to importance. And the gains are so minimal. I mean, come on.
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