A true believer

To Tubegroover & Frogman:

Is this an exampls of what you mean by learning to listen? I would appreciate your comments. Read the entire exchange.
Thanks

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1306127340

To Frogman

"Rok2id, I encourage you to read Tubegroover's post above carefully and seriously."

I always read his posts with great attention. He always speaks with sense and knowledge. And if he says he hears wire, I believe him. He would not say it if it were not true.

"The hobby is a funny marriage of the emotional (music), and the technical (audio). We tend to want to feel that science has explanations for just about anything. We want to be the masters of out universe. We are far from being masters. Those funny little flesh saucers on the side of your head, and the super-computer it is attached to, is far more sensitive than any tool that science has come up with yet."

I agree completely. When I think about how little the average person knows about how even the most common component operates, I mean the science and technology. People just want to use stuff, not understand all the details. And I am in that camp. I don't really understand CD players. And I am not alone. :) I guess hearing wire is the audio equivalent of 'dark matter'.

"Add to this the fact that the subject at hand (music) is one that deals with human emotion, and is it any wonder that tempers fly?"

I don't think the 'emotion' comes from the love of music or the love of equipment. I shout, all cd player sound the same, all amps sound the same, wire cannot be heard. And notice how different people react. most don't feel it's worth responding, some try to educate the poor lost soul, with respect and understanding. :) Some beg to disagree, and move on. And some go Ballistic. I mean crazy!! Those are the ones worth further study! hahhahahaha It's not about the music, or the equipment!! It's just that some have more invested in their systems than just time and money.

"I encourage you to be less close minded about these folks' experiences; you will learn much as a result, and enjoy music (which you seem to care about) on a much deeper level."

I value their experiences. And I don't think I'm closed minded. I accept all facts. But in the end it's not that important. I wish I had never mentioned wire. Just got a lot of people mad and upset and made me the village idiot of audiogon. Love music more than I do now??? hmmmmmm maybe :)

one other thing, I always have said I have no experience in high-end audio. Meaning I don't own the type of equipment that is common on this site. Hell, I don't even recognize most of the brand names. But I have been involved in audio almost my entire life. Or more precisely, recorded music. That's a more accurate term.

thanks for the post
It's only audio

Rok2id, I encourage you to read Tubegroover's post above carefully and seriously. I think that not only does it provide valuable practical information, but it points to something that gets lost in these discussions (debates) all too often. There are many on this site that are very experienced in a hobby that is both incredibly rewarding, and equally complex and mysterious. The hobby is a funny marriage of the emotional (music), and the technical (audio). We tend to want to feel that science has explanations for just about anything. We want to be the masters of out universe. We are far from being masters. Those funny little flesh saucers on the side of your head, and the super-computer it is attached to, is far more sensitive than any tool that science has come up with yet. We just need to learn to get in touch with all that potential. Add to this the fact that the subject at hand (music) is one that deals with human emotion, and is it any wonder that tempers fly? By your own admission, you have very little experience in this hobby. Why not open your mind to the possibility that there are some who simply understand more than you do? I think that most of the folks on this site are very well intended, and like Tubegroover, want to share experience, and help others with less experience; in the interest of promoting something which is dear to them; music. I encourage you to be less close minded about these folks' experiences; you will learn much as a result, and enjoy music (which you seem to care about) on a much deeper level.

No, I never said that all like minded people only should post on the gon, but I do think experience is something that is key.

You claim that all wire sounds the the same, and that amps do as well, yet seem to lack experience with the subject so why constantly say these things like this if you don't take the time and try to listen for yourself.

I don't care what your position is, but if you don't try it for yourself, its all hear say and you really have no personal evidence beside "well so and so said so it must be true."

My friends like country music and tell me its good, yet my ears tell me otherwise. It all comes down to personal experience. If you have tried to do critical listening with a system find that you can't tell the different between it and a HTIB, well then thats your experience.

But to go on and on about how can wire make a difference and the challenge to others to prove their points yet not taking the time to try it for your own personal experience, IMO is a waste of time.

"Why is it that, when I read one of your posts, I feel more stupid than usual. :) You are one of the more thoughtful and knowledgable guys on this site. And you do speak from personal experience. There is no subsitute for that."

Well I try to be thoughtful but so far as knowledgable, I'm not too sure about that! There are many MUCH more experienced folks than I am concerning audio knowledge. What I AM confident in and what we all should aspire to is learning to trust what we hear. That takes time and experience to develop. Critical listening is not always easy, it is a process but is necessary to develop hearing acuity and discerning differences. The more you practice it the more you develop it and can trust it. I see it more as a learned discipline than an innate ability though some are better at it than others.

Telling the differences between tubes in a given circuit in many cases is quite easy. I'm sure I could readily identify all the 6sn7 line stage tubes I have on hand in my preamp because I am so familiar with their given characteristics from listening over the years. The differences between some are not at all subtle, some are closer. Some of the other tubes in the circuit, the regulators and rectifier are not as easy to identify as to the brand but the effect that each makes to the presentation is different and not at all difficult to hear. Soundstage can be greatly affected by the tube used. I have one particular 6sn7 tube that seemingly expands the soundstage at the expense of image location and focus, a clear distortion to my ears, some rave about it, huh? To each his own but for sure I know it is not a good tube and I would never recommend it. The best tubes increase performance in all parameters without altering the sound. Tubes can be about flavoring but that is not what I'm after, been down that road. A really well balanced tube circuit with the right compliment of tubes can be a revelation and doesn't lose out to ss in any area and can make the music come alive. You need to hear one Rok2id, you might be surprised how far they've come from what you might expect.

AMEN!!

To Rodman99999:

"Enjoy your mediocrity"

I do. After all, ignorance is Bliss!

To Rodman99999

"I can tell the difference between Sylvania VT-231s and a TungSol 6SN7GTs, in the driver positions of my Cary monoblocks, simply by the width and depth of the resulting sound stage"

WOW!! this is amazing!! I thought soundstage was 'created' by speaker / speaker position and room interface. You better git yo self down to that patent office, now. And insure them ears while you are at it.

To Tubegroover:

Why is it that, when I read one of your posts, I feel more stupid than usual. :) You are one of the more thoughtful and knowledgable guys on this site. And you do speak from personal experience. There is no subsitute for that.
I can't speak from exerience about high-end gear. The only components I have ever owned that could possibly be considered high-end were my tape decks and turntable. Nakamichi 700 and Technics 1500 rtr and my thorens 126 with sme and black widow and shure. That was a different era of course. They would be considered junk now. All my amps, preamps, CD players and speakers have been low-fi. So you are correct I have never heard a high-end system.

About my beliefs: WIRE: it's not that I don't believe or won't believe, it's that I cannot believe. No more than I can believe you can turn lead into gold.

Amps? I have not owned enough and no high-end to say, or, at least to be dogmatic about it, BUT I do believe in blind testing. it's as scientific as we can get testing this issue. It seems to my inexperienced mind that all of these issues would be sooooooooooo easy to resolve. Let people DEMONSTRATE that they can hear wire. DEMONSTRATE that they can ID Amps. Could all be over in an afternoon.

"you wouldn't dare come onto a forum like this and say such things. It comes across as somewhat foolish, I'm sorry but this is true."

No need to be sorry. I understand completely. But I do think 'you wouldn't dare' is a little much. Don't you?


"You seem to be a generally nice guy and I DO like your sense of humor but if you really want to get on board here, open up your mind and try to listen to some systems instead of spewing the same old nonsense. Maybe an audio show would be a great place to start; you will also meet some very cordial, knowledgeable folks."

The only thing I spew are facts. I have never typed IMO or IMHO, you see that alot on this site. I would love to hear a high-end system someday. Maybe the next show in Dallas. As for the people being cordial, of that I have no doubt. You and many others here, prove that everyday.

Thanks for taking the time to share your experiences in your post.
Good listening

I'm not twisting anything. Who said, "all properly designed solid state amps operating within their operating parameters"? The article that YOU cited, compared(again) an OTL TUBE AMP, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver. The differences in presentation, between SET, OTL and Push/Pull tubed amps alone, are obvious enough. The differences between typical Class A and Class A/B Solid State amps are also easy enough to hear, given decent associated gear and recordings. I can tell the difference between Sylvania VT-231s and a TungSol 6SN7GTs, in the driver positions of my Cary monoblocks, simply by the width and depth of the resulting sound stage. Whether ANYONE ELSE can tell a SS amp, tube amp or a wire, from a Bose table radio, is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT to me. Enjoy your mediocrity.

To Rodman99999:

'Are you selling any of whatever you're smoking? It MUST be KILLER!'

I don't smoke, and please don't resort to twisting the facts. He said all properly designed solid state amps operating within their operating parameters. Not a very high bar at all.
BTW there is a guy offering 1 million dollars U.S. if YOU or anyone else can tell the difference between solid state amps or wire. Last I heard it was still on the table. Better hurry!!

Amps don't sound alike, but not necessarily $20,000 amp will sound better than $3,000.
Certainly $15,000 single CD-player(for dumb-philes) will sound different, but would it sound better than $400? Will the money be spent well worth the difference?
Only true believers can understand why nonsense makes sense.

"I will allow you to restate this. I assume you spoke in haste. It seems as if you are saying musicians don't know how to listen to music. I played as an adult, not age 10. Maybe musicians just know what to listen for. One of the old mags had a feature where they featured systems owned by famous music artist. very, very interesting. No krell:)"

Indeed you are right, it was written in haste and I didn't edit it, tried to after it was sent but the edit option was off. What should have been said is that many play music but to me playing music and listening to music are different experiences. As an example I remember years ago Sterophile had a reviewer that happened to be a musician as if that might somehow give him an edge at hearing live music and what his choices might be in choosing equipment. In any event, he performed a review on I believe it was the B&K 800 speakers, their flagship at the time. What was so silly to me is that these speakers were set-up in a very small space relative to the size of the speaker. The review fell flat to me because unless a speaker this size is going to be realized to its full potential it MUST be evaluated in an appropriate space. What ran through my mind is that this guy sits in the middle back part of the orchestra and maybe how the speaker performed in his room might have indicated how he likes to hear reproduced music. Why Atkinson, the editor would allow this is beyond me. Of course the speaker got raves from him but over time I found the vast majority of his reviews pedantic and useless until I stopped reading anything he wrote. I am NOT saying musicians don't know how to listen to music, they most certainly do, but they don't all necessarily listen for the same things as many audiophiles. Then again there are musicians that ARE audiophiles and many contributing to this forum. When I am playing piano it sounds much different than when listening to a performance in an audience, skill level aside, so it is not my basis when listening to a performance as listener.

I’m going to give you a specific example of a highly regarded, very expensive ic that was forwarded to me to evaluate in my system. Actually I was given 3 pair of this i.c. When I say expensive I am speaking of insanely expensive, more than double the 2.5k retail of the wire I currently use. I started out, as I always do, connecting the source component to the pre-amplifier. There were two other listeners on hand when this evaluation was performed. When we first started listening it was IMMEDIATELY apparent to everyone that the sound was MUCH clearer, more forward, and more to the point, practically unlistenable, very etchy in the upper frequencies and unbalanced top to bottom. This compared to a more modestly priced cable I was currently using at the time. We listened for a full half hour then decided to add another ic from pre-amp to the Merlin BBAM (battery BAM I was using at the time) The effect we initially heard became more emphasized. We continued on running the last pair from the BAM to the amplifier, the issues compounded. You get the idea. What I am saying is this, I don’t know what the cause was, break-in of the cable, synergy issues with the speaker (most likely), interference with the amplifier which incorporates high frequency radio signals as a signal carrier, or poor design but I will say that it didn’t take golden ears to hear it. I am not saying this cable is bad or isn’t be all end all that was ascribed to it by others but IN MY SYSTEM, it was amusical. I have had similar negative experiences with other cables as well, some quite expensive and very nice results with moderately priced cable. Generally inexpensive cable, basically bulk wire doesn’t sound bad generally but doesn’t convey the nuances that my system can clearly resolve with better cables and is generally lacking a great deal at the frequency extremes. The real devil lies in the frequency extremes in my experience, light airy natural upper frequencies and controlled natural bass as you hear it live, not accentuated as some speakers and amps tend to do. Some like this, personally I don’t, again an issue of taste but driven by how I hear live music.
An example of a cable that can really tame a system that is out of balance is MIT, I owned a pair designed specifically for tube gear and they weren’t cheap. I really loved them at first but realized over time that they manipulate the sound with their network boxes. To me a cable should ideally pass the signal through without adding or subtracting anything but most importantly do no harm. Some do better than others. The one I choose for my system was the best at doing this to my ears by far over the countless others I tried. So my conclusions are based on real world experiences in a familiar system. I am not one to get in the middle of this argument but only to convey personal experiences. Hopefully it provides some value, if not that’s ok too, I don’t care one way or the other, this isn’t life or death, it’s audio. If you want to continue calling people out as somehow being deluded or tricked, have at it. If your hero is Julian Hirsh that’s ok too, my conclusions about him were formed 10 years before I discovered high end audio and later an audiophile and was not formulated by anyone or anything other than Hirsh himself. If a person has gone down the same path as I have and come to a different conclusion, I respect what they hear. There is plenty of white noise on the internet and this site isn’t immune. What I really value is learning from others their experiences and hopefully gain more knowledge and in return try to reciprocate. This is the true value of this forum to share and give informed opinions.
You are not going to get the answer you are looking for concerning wire, at least the real science of what we are hearing because that chapter hasn't been written yet. You remember the last thread where a cable manufacturer gave his theories as to what was causing what we hear with an emphasis on timing issues. Just because something cannot be measured or heard by some does not mean it doesn't exist or can't be heard by others. Amplifiers clearly sound different, so when you harken back to the days of old when many but certainly not all believed this so, it tells me that you haven't listened to many truly resolving systems or you wouldn't dare come onto a forum like this and say such things. It comes across as somewhat foolish, I'm sorry but this is true.
You seem to be a generally nice guy and I DO like your sense of humor but if you really want to get on board here, open up your mind and try to listen to some systems instead of spewing the same old nonsense. Maybe an audio show would be a great place to start; you will also meet some very cordial, knowledgeable folks.

"The point is, no one could distinguish them. NO ONE can or HAS done it to this day. So lay off julian and stereo review. NO ONE can do it! Not even you. And this applies to wire also." (re: OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver) Are you selling any of whatever you're smoking? It MUST be KILLER!

To Bighead63:

Every one I have read on this site is more informed on high-end audio than I am. And they have the systems to prove it.
So who I am to save anyone or change any minds. But your post implies a desire for only like minded people to post on audiogon. Is that true?

'It took you an hour, to get through my post and you STILL completely missed the point of my comparison? SO- you are BOTH illiterate, and comprehensively challenged?'

I did not miss your point, your so-called comparison was more like a very bad attempt at making an analogy. I am not illiterate. I can read, write and figure!!

'actually involved an OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver(Jan '87 Stereo Review- 'Do All Amps Sound Alike?'),'

Ok,your memory is better than mine. The point is, no one could distinguish them. NO ONE can or HAS done it to this day. So lay off julian and stereo review. NO ONE can do it! Not even you. And this applies to wire also.

'Silly me to think you so cultured, as to realize'

Yes, that was silly of you.

'Sorry, if I used too many multisyllabic words in this post. Grab a dictionary, and I'm certain even you, capable of muddling through it.'

After reading it, muddling does come to mind. And get a dictionary and look up HUMOR, lest I think we are both comprehensively challenged!!

Not sure what Rok2id point of being here is? To save us from ourselves and to change our minds about buying something?

If you think this place is a joke then why do you post here? You have nothing to add besides you don't think amps or anything sound different?

Then you state you have lots of questions to ask, yet act like you already know the answer to everything?

Trolling seems more like the answer as you know (as I've read other posts of yours and always the same thing) that what you say is going to start an argument.

It took you an hour, to get through my post and you STILL completely missed the point of my comparison? SO- you are BOTH illiterate, and comprehensively challenged? A pity! The amp comparison you refer to, actually involved an OTL tube amp, a Hi-End SS, and a $220.00 Jap receiver(Jan '87 Stereo Review- 'Do All Amps Sound Alike?'), all of which differed from each other in measured performance and design as one could possibly assemble. You mention, in one of your lengthy/vapid diatribes, "Tubes amps are a different story. If you like distortion go tube." It's obvious that, even by YOUR impared judgement, the listeners that Stereo Repuke assembled WERE DEAF, or(at least) did not know HOW to listen. You were loosely quoting Shakespeare when you replied, "I think you do protest toooooo much!"(Silly me to think you so cultured, as to realize) Sorry, if I used too many multisyllabic words in this post. Grab a dictionary, and I'm certain even you, capable of muddling through it.

'My point rok2id is that I found a redundancy to his commentary that proved to be quite boring over time and I stopped subscribing,.

If the man said all amps sounded the same, why would you expect his commentary to be so diverse. redundant / same there is a connection.

'I believe there are many music enthusiasts that are not audiophiles and many audiophiles that are not really music enthusiasts. An audiophile by general definition might be described as one that is focused on the "sound" of reproduced music.'

I agree. I have said so in previous post. I call them gadget people. I like equipment, but I listen to and for the music. Some attribute every thing they hear to a component, I don't, I praise or blame the cd or the speaker / room thingy.

'I'm saying is that you continuously harp on the same points but I'm not too sure you have had the experience of listening as some on this site have, thats all especially if you think all amplifiers sound the same.'

I have no basis to criticize systems I have not heard. My ideas about wire are system independent. I have never been critical of anyone's system, I admire most of them because they are all more elaborate and beautiful than mine. So, since there is no knowledge or information to be gained on this site, I do tend to harp on the same thing.
I don't understand your point about being able to hear wire SOMETIMES. Why just sometime. If it can be heard, should be always.

'Yada yada about playing in bands, listening to recorded. Many of us have as well. I don't place any value on my experience playing music since I was 10 to the present as having any value on what I hear in reproduced audio. Playing in a band or as a musician is not the way you hear it when you hear as a listener as opposed to participant. Listening not playing (performing) is the benchmark for me.'

I will allow you to restate this. I assume you spoke in haste. It seems as if you are saying musicians don't know how to listen to music. I played as an adult, not age 10. Maybe musicians just know what to listen for. One of the old mags had a feature where they featured systems owned by famous music artist. very, very interesting. No krell:)

'If you are satisfied with what you are hearing thats fine but cut it with the PT Barnum malarky and try a new line, you still have the same audience:)'

I was not aware I have an audience. It was not my intention. If p.t. were alive today, he would be the largest wire manufacturer in the world. hahahahaha And I do respect you and many others on this site. In fact I must say that most of the people I have 'met' here have been outstanding folks. I never get mad or upset. As the General told the sgt maj in 'Good Morning Vietnam" Hell, its only audio. he said radio but the point is the same.
just remember in the future, I have no idea what i'm talking about. So you can all relax.
good listening

"what an arrogant statement!!! YOU found his reviews useless?? Why? Because he didn't say the nonsense you wanted to hear? Are you saying there is a difference between a music 'enthusiast' and an audiophile? hmmmmm"

My point rok2id is that I found a redundancy to his commentary that proved to be quite boring over time and I stopped subscribing, probably in the mid 70. The difference between a music enthusiast and an audiophile. Well this is a bit more complicated because I believe there are many music enthusiasts that are not audiophiles and many audiophiles that are not really music enthusiasts. An audiophile by general definition might be described as one that is focused on the "sound" of reproduced music.

"But I hope you weren't trying to insult me bying saying i'm just comic relief. :) If you think i'm comical, I suggest you read 99% of the posts on this site. I know my input is not as weighty as 'what time do you wear', or 'why don't more people like high-end audio?' when I read that title I roll on the floor. :)"

Well, if the shoe fits, live with it:) No all I'm saying is that you continuously harp on the same points but I'm not too sure you have had the experience of listening as some on this site have, thats all especially if you think all amplifiers sound the same. A Threshold sounds like a Krell, or Spectral sounds like a Boulder? come on now....the differences may not be apparent to you but they certainly are to those that can differentiate and are willing to pay, who's arrogant? Me?

"I mostly only comment on wire. I have a million questions, but no one is interested. I don't really care where most folks put themselves."

Yes, you have a million questions and you keep on asking, often sarcastically I might add. As I've stated before, I personally don't care what anyone believes about wire. I'm sure some don't hear differences and in many cases neither do I but as I've stated before, some will agree and some disagree, I have heard BIG differences in wire in profoundly negative as well as positive examples. Why not quit asking questions as to the science which has been pounded to death. After all, how can a wire that simply passes a signal make an effect on sound? To some it does, to others it doesn't to some in some cases yes, to others in all cases no. You just have to listen for yourself but as I have previously stated as well, the differences will be more profound the more resolving the system. This is one area where questions can't be answered, you have to listen and make your own conclusions.

Yada yada about playing in bands, listening to recorded. Many of us have as well. I don't place any value on my experience playing music since I was 10 to the present as having any value on what I hear in reproduced audio. Playing in a band or as a musician is not the way you hear it when you hear as a listener as opposed to participant. Listening not playing (performing) is the benchmark for me. I have been to countless concerts of all genres of music over the years, from bars, coffee houses, outdoor arenas, indoor areas, churches, schools, opera houses, auditoriums, any kind of venue you can name. It is the way live music sounds, the characteristics that make it sound live that makes ME an audiophile, trying to capture that, it is elusive for sure but it is what drives me, not Julian Hirsh, Len Feldman, JG Holt, Harry Pearson or any of them. It is the search for the truth as I hear it, not what I am told or read.

Over time there are people I come to respect and trust whether it be audiophiles or rag reviewers. It is for the consistency of what they hear, not necessarily their tastes, this is most important but nothing is more important than listening for yourself. If you are satisfied with what you are hearing thats fine but cut it with the PT Barnum malarky and try a new line, you still have the same audience:)

To Rodman99999
'Are those that can tell you things like what year a grape was grown, in what part of France, and(specifically): what field,'

Now, that is a skill every audiophile should have!!

There are those that have trained their palates, and taste buds, to discern things others cannot. Likewise; Aural Acuity, system refinement/resolution, quality of source materials, listening room/speaker system tuning, familiarity with the sound of live instruments/vocals, in an actual acoustic, and one's attentions/training, vary greatly(if they exist AT ALL).

you can say that again!! Where did you learn all these big words? It took me an hour to get thru your post. Had to look up every word.

I could cite other factors that would impact whether or not one might be able to hear the differences in cables, like one's concrete opinions(thoroughly mixed up, and permanently set), but- I don't want to hear any more loose quotes from Shakespeare. Happy listening!

Who the hell is Shakespeare?? Does he make wire?

happy listening and tasting to you also :)

To Tubegroover:
'A simple question to you, do you really believe that all amplifiers sound alike?'
I believe all properly designed solid state amps sound alike. I think Hirsch stated it that way also. Tubes amps are a different story. If you like distortion go tube.

'He was the voice of the flat earthers of audio. Even back in those days when I was a music enthusiast, not an audiophile I found most of his reviews useless.'

what an arrogant statement!!! YOU found his reviews useless?? Why? Because he didn't say the nonsense you wanted to hear? Are you saying there is a difference between a music 'enthusiast' and an audiophile? hmmmmm.

'The same bs every month with the same measurements and the same conclusions, what was the point?'

what was he supposed to do? change the measurements? state conclusions based on nothing? I guess he didn't talk enough about soundstage, detail,grain and all the rest of the voodoo agenda.

'Have you ever really listened? You do a lot of pontificating but you really haven't said much about your experience listening.'

I have been listening since my father brought home the 78's off the 'seebergs' and juke boxes. 99% noise and static and clicks and pops, but I listened. I have been listening since 1947. I remember most of the music, none of the equipment. I listened as a member of the high school band, I listened as a memeber of my college concert band. I listen to LPs and 45s and reel to reel and cassettes and now I listen to CDs. I remember the music, the equipment has faded with time.

'but other than what you believe about wire, which many on this site agree with, I'm not too sure these same folks would put themselves in the Hirsh camp concerning amplifiers so long as amp/speaker interface is in line. If he's your guru good for you, stay there and be happy but to me you are a rookie who adds nothing more than entertainment value in your posts. Have a nice day! ;^)'

I mostly only comment on wire. I have a million questions, but no one is interested. I don't really care where most folks put themselves. I know the truth when I hear it and I act on the truth. I think I have stated on several previous post that I was a rookie when it came to high-end audio, or audio in general for that matter. I lay claim to no knowledge about anything. But I hope you weren't trying to insult me bying saying i'm just comic relief. :) If you think i'm comical, I suggest you read 99% of the posts on this site. I know my input is not as weighty as 'what time do you wear', or 'why don't more people like high-end audio?' when I read that title I roll on the floor. :)
But I will admit I was a little surprised at your tone. I thought you were one of the smart ones.
you have a nice day also.

rok2id - A simple question to you, do you really believe that all amplifiers sound alike? Julian Hirsh measured gear, he didn't really listen. He was the voice of the flat earthers of audio. Even back in those days when I was a music enthusiast, not an audiophile I found most of his reviews useless. The same bs every month with the same measurements and the same conclusions, what was the point? Do you believe that a vintage tube amplifier sounds the same as a cutting edge SS amplifier or the other way around? Have you ever really listened? You do a lot of pontificating but you really haven't said much about your experience listening. We've gone down this road before but before you advance to 2nd base you've got to make it to first, first, just saying, but other than what you believe about wire, which many on this site agree with, I'm not too sure these same folks would put themselves in the Hirsh camp concerning amplifiers so long as amp/speaker interface is in line. If he's your guru good for you, stay there and be happy but to me you are a rookie who adds nothing more than entertainment value in your posts. Have a nice day! ;^)

I like it too! Kinda like, "Rat Shack." With regards to the, "all things sound alike" thought train; I'm certain there are many that cannot taste the differences between MD 20/20, a bottle of 1795 vintage Château Lafite Rothschild, and would absolutely swear: there are none. Are those that can tell you things like what year a grape was grown, in what part of France, and(specifically): what field, snake oil salesmen, con-men and voodoo priests? I think not! There are those that have trained their palates, and taste buds, to discern things others cannot. Likewise; Aural Acuity, system refinement/resolution, quality of source materials, listening room/speaker system tuning, familiarity with the sound of live instruments/vocals, in an actual acoustic, and one's attentions/training, vary greatly(if they exist AT ALL). I could cite other factors that would impact whether or not one might be able to hear the differences in cables, like one's concrete opinions(thoroughly mixed up, and permanently set), but- I don't want to hear any more loose quotes from Shakespeare. Happy listening!

but, it is sort of sad that a pioneer in the home audio field can be ridiculed on an so-called audiophile site. Too bad he is not here to defend himself. Julian was into this when it was a hobby for real. when you ordered kits to build your amps and speaker. Maybe he said all amps sound alike, because, well, maybe they do. what would his motive to lie? but like a lot of things, this has gone from a hobby to big business and finally to a racket.
Your comments and attitude are indicative of the degree to which the snake oil salesmen and con-men and voodoo priests have come to dominate this so-called hobby. I am just thankful I came along when there were honest reseachers that provided the truth. BTW 'stereo repuke.' how cute.

With cables...its all about the "Synergy" between the other components in your system....

I think you do protest toooooo much!

OOPS! MY BAD! Had they ACTUALLY been DUMB; the World of Audio Journalism would have been much better off.

Whose, "golden ears" were those again? OH YEAH; the deaf & dumb that wrote for Stereo Repuke! Especially notable; Julian Hirsch, who stands out as one of the biggest jokes of all time, with regards to Audio Journalism. I subscribed to that rag, simply to keep up with what was going on in the mid-fi market. After his statement(and I quote), "I never listen to live music, but- I have a pretty good idea, what it sounds like", I NEVER read the rag again. That HAD to be the most thoroughly ridiculous statement I'd ever come across, in ANY audio commentary. As I said; The idea that Stereo Repuke proved ANYTHING, is simply HILARIOUS!

'The idea that Stereo Repuke, "proved" ANYTHING, is simply H I L A R I O U S!'

well, if the golden ears could not distinquish between amps with a price differental of tens of thousands of dollars, what conclusion do you draw? other than amusement.

Frogman- It's funny that the subject of Stereo Repuke came up before my post. I was going to suggest, that we had entered a time warp, or that Julian Hirsch(of, "Everything-Sounds-The-Same" fame) had been resurrected, and was haunting those of us with even a modicum of auditory accuity. The idea that Stereo Repuke, "proved" ANYTHING, is simply H I L A R I O U S!

“Nothing that is worth knowing can be taught." -Oscar Wilde

To All True Believers:

Do you think situational awareness and the sense of sight play any part in what we hear or think we hear? In other words if we know what cable is playing and/or can see the cable, does that influence what we hear?

there is an easy way to test this. If another adult lives in your house, just have them change or not change a voodoo cable with lamp cord. Do it everyday or weekly or whatever, for as long as you want. Don't peek:) And compare notes at the end of the test, be it weeks, days or months. You just listen as normal and write down which cable is playing each day. at the end just compare notes. If you get it right, then you can hear cable. If you get it right, say, 70% of the time, you can hear cable, but, it also means 30% of the time you can't tell the difference between lamp cord and voodoo. something to ponder. Which is what I think Agaffer just said.

Problem with these tests is you really can't set up one that works. There are just too many emotional and physical aspects. I believe it is true that we suffer from a very short audio memory. Then there is our mood, time of day, do we like the music being used.

I also don't believe that we can do much better with measuring devices. We really don't know what all the parameters are that we need to measure. That is why JA at Stereophile is often confounded by his measurements vs what the reviewer hears. I can explain why a isolation transformer works and how it doesn't add but subtracts. I can't explain why cable makes a difference but, I know that I can hear a difference. But, I call BS on anyone that stakes the claim that it is substantial.

Stereo Review proved years ago, that NO so-called golden ear could tell the difference between stereo amplifiers. I think the two used in the test was a multi thousand dollar Krell and a $129 Pioneer receiver from walmart. If you can't hear the differences in amps how,pray tell, can you hear wire. But, if you can, there is some guy offering one million dollars to anyone that can hear wire. One of the gurus at stereophile accepted the challenge but then backed out. He could ended this debate forever!!! what a missed oppourtunity!!. :) anyone need an extra Million??

Frogman, you don't list your equipment so, I don't know if you have tried this. There is what we like to call "grunge" in the electricity that comes to our homes.

It can be audible in some systems. There is a way to remove it that is based on sound engineering and is used by many industries that have very sensitive electronics, much more sensitive than our audio equipment.

Isolation transformer. It isn't sexy, there are no led lights and it most likely needs to be put in a place where you can't see or hear it. Yes, they make noise, they don't transmit noise but they hum. And, they work.

I might be wrong but, I doubt if any of the expensive electronic power conditioners that audiophiles like find their way into places that need absolutely "clean" power.

Agaffer, this subject has been beaten to death so many times that it is not even funny. I am not about to engage in a protracted debate about this; I think I have made my opinions fairly clear. For the record, re your commnent:

***If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it.***

I never said that, and that is not what I am debating.

In then end, there is seldom agreement. The generous, PC response might be: "to each his own", or "we will have to agree to disagree". I am not feeling particularly PC today, so my honest response has to be: I can hear it, it's important to me; you can't hear it.

Peace. And as someone we all know and love likes to say:

"Regards, and enjoy the music"

Frogman, thank you. I am one of those experienced audiophiles that have formed a preference for certain cables in my system. Formed by comparing several brands, some common, some exotic and expensive, while trying to help a friend decide what he should carry in his store.

"Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?"

Nope, not kidding. Most make zero audible or measurable by any means difference in any systems. Some do, always slight but worthwhile if you are trying to get that last ounce of performance. My bias came after listening and not being afraid of the truth. In regards to the fools remark, yup, we are.

If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it. Personally I think that the argument that you like what you have and am willing to spend that much to improve what you have is pretty weak. If it was true what is it that your improving. Exactly what it sounds like but more......more what?

If you are adding money to a system that equals or costs more than the system in tweaks and cables, then you obviously are not happy with the way it sounds.

OK, you true believers; I am impressed by your self-control. You are better men than I. I can't control myself.

***Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements***

No, wire in any and ALL systems, can make small improvements. In some systems it can make very large improvements. There isn't a system that can't benefit, to some degree, by the right choice of wire. The better the system, the more obvious the wire's contribution becomes, and the more potential for improvement.

***But, never the claims you read***

Are you kidding me? "NEVER"? In my experience, the change for the positive that the right cable choice has made, as measured by what is important to me, can be more than what is claimed.

***and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack***

Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?

There is no question that there is a lot of bs in the cable industry. No-one knows that better than the good cable manufacturers who make a good product. My ears tell me that good cable choices are just as important as any other choice in assembling a good system. That choice may be a very inexpensive one, determined in part by what sound you are after.

After a lot of years playing around with this stuff, I have come to the conclusion (and I don't mean to offend anyone) that those who diminish the importance of good cable choices are either not experienced enough as listeners, have some limitation (perhaps governed by some sort of bias) in their hearing, or have systems that are not revealing enough to make differences in cables very obvious.

The small sunroom system is a room I added on to our house, the master bedroom.

It isn't designed as a audio room so the furnishings and dimensions came first and the audio came last. It is 14'x23' and I am not sure about the ceiling height.
If I want to listen at night I use headphones. After I took the pictures I added a Woo Audio 6SE amp and some headphones. It is very comfortable to sit in the chair right next to the TT at night, listen to music, and look out into the yard. I made a living for 45 years lighting people and things. You can bet I spent a lot of time designing the lighting in my own back yard.

Agaffer

very informative post. I tend to agree with everything you said in your reply. I did look at your system pictures and was wondering if your room is an addition to your home. Very cozy and beautiful area. It looks like something I have been planning to do. I was planning to enclose and extend my patio as a listening room. What are the dimensions of the room? A new room is what I really need to improve my system. I hope your medical treatment makes you completely well.

Rok2id

If you don't read my posts carefully you would think that my belief is that cables, conditioners, stands, are a bunch of nonesense. A glance at either one of my posted systems show I know each can be helpful.

Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements. RFI aside. But, never the claims you read and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack. The most common analogy that someone that understands electricity and the flow of electrons makes when trying to describe amperage is the flow of water through various diameter water hoses. When you go read the white papers on cable websites you almost always read some "scientific" explanation about the flow of electrons and words like choking, allowing the music to flow like there are musical notes trying to get through the cable. There is no choking of the flow of electrons, a slowing down or stoppage over short wire runs in audio. There is so little amperage relative to the gage wire we use. If not, what you would have is heat but that's another story.

I also believe that some power conditioning can help audio. When it works it is not what you hear it is what you don't hear. You can obtain the proverbially black background. But, it doesn't take expensive electronics in boxes with led lights. Wire windings, lots of windings, in other words isolation transformers make a difference that can be both heard and measured, this is not snake oil or voo doo.

Isolation stands. Grew out of the turntable years. Absolutely scientific and easily demonstrated to anybody. Music through vinyl is based on vibration, external vibration obviously needs to be minimized. But wait, we are solid state and digital now. Oh, s**t, I own a company that makes stuff that decreases vibrations, what will happen? I know, convince people that it never had anything to do with the transfer of sound from a record to a cartridge to a amp. through vibration. That like RFI vibration effects everything audio. Yeah, that's it. Poor electronics, poor speakers just add vibration killers.

Tubegroover
is this your way of saying 'surely you jest!!!' :)

Agaffer
you stole my thunder :)

"Is there a wire that will make my Lsi15's sound like the Wilson MAXX??"

I don't think that there is a speaker cable that can do that. While there is no way to do all the scientific, double blind, etc. tests that some would demand (just the boredom alone would make it impossible) most of us ha made some effort to do some testing. And, I think, most of us agree that sometimes you can hear slight differences, most of the time no difference.

So, should you decide that you like the Polk sound but just want to improve upon them until they can compete with the Wilson MAXX, cables alone won't do it. You have to buy new power cords, interconnects, and speaker cable. They have to be expensive because only the expensive ones work, even though they are wire bought from bulk wire manufacturers, not some kind of new formula, and covered with dialectic material bought from bulk manufacturers, not some new formula. Then you must have hospital grade outlets (which only means they grab tighter so the plug can't easily be kicked out). You must go through a power conditioner not just a simple one to one isoloation transformer, which may be good enough for the extremely high tech industries but not for audio. Each solid state piece of equipment that doesn't reproduce sound through vibration unlike a Turntable, must be put on a vibration free stand that must be accompanied by a "scientific" white paper designed by someone who worked in NASA (all you have to do is a internet search, "Yup, there he is, says right here, janitor at NASA warehouse." And, that stand has to be very expensive or it won't work.

You do all three of those things then your Polk speakers will make your neighbors jaw drop, your wife who doesn't like music sit and listen or at least call out from three rooms away, and entitles you to make claims on how you were skeptical but, it made a big, no jaw dropping, no giant killing, no it was so much better you are going to keep the cables and buy even less expensive speakers because why throw your money away on expensive speakers or any expensive pre amp, cd player, tt, or amp.

Rok2id

I REALLY am starting to enjoy your sense of humor! Keep it up, it keeps things on a lite note:)

I'm beginning to think there is something to this cable/wire thingy. maybe I have been missing out on something fantastic. Is there a wire that will make my Lsi15's sound like the Wilson MAXX?? Just asking, put those flame throwers back in the arms room.

LOL! preachin' to the choir.

Once you own a pick up truck you can never go back. Maybe a second car but, always have to have a pick up truck. It carries stuff.

I bet you drive down the road commenting on the wheels in people's driveways. Personally, I don't know why everyone doesn't drive a pick-up truck. I'm just saying. ;-)