Elizabeth,
You're right. But, like I said, just saying. |
Maybe it's just me but, I am pretty sure, no almost sure, no absolutely without question sure, that were I to take $93,631 dollars and put it into a very good cd player, a very very good integrated amp or pre amp and amps, and a pair of very, very, very good speakers. Hooked it all up with zip cord. Properly "tweaked" the speaker placement and added any room needed room treatments....
Well, you can see where this is going. I believe wires make a difference but, it is so far down the line in regards to importance. And the gains are so minimal. I mean, come on. |
Roxy, I do think you can improve a system, somewhat, with wire. Oddly enough, it is one of the few things in audio where some of the less expensive ones make a bigger difference than the more expensive ones.
Most products in our hobby increase in performance with price. Not always but, most. Speakers grouped in the $2000 level don't out perform the ones grouped in the $12000 level for instance. One thing I know with all certainty is that nobody can take speakers in the $2000 level add $10000 of speaker cable and have the sound of a $12000 speaker. But you can turn a $2000 level speaker into a $12000 speaker by selling them and spend the money on speakers in the $12000 range. |
"long ago, in a different age, when men who were truth seekers ruled the world of audio, it was said that the perfect Amp would be a straight piece of wire with gain. Think about the im[plications of that statement. What does it say about WIRE?"
I dunno, that wire has no gain? That truth seekers morphed into BS artists? I dunno, what does it say about wire?
Inna, such a gentleman. Resorting to bullying,shouting, personal attacks always shows the depth of one's argument. |
No criticism regarding total cost, just a discussion about what would sound better.
Speaker(A)+wire(W) that cost more than speaker. (A) + (W) = C for total cost.
or
Speaker (B) that equals (C) + zip-cord (Z).
Would that make the question:
is (B+Z )> (A+W), is (B+Z)< (A+W), or is (B+Z)=(A+W). My head is spinning.
Why does it have to be a criticism or argument. This is a hobby. My biggest hobby is surfing and when surfers discuss best equipment or surf spots I never here the kind of defensive nonsense audiophiles seem to throw out. Someone having different thoughts than you shouldn't raise your hackles.
I love music reproduction, and I admit to loving the equipment as much as the music it makes. When I lived in California I tried to go to as many of the Orange County/Los Angeles audio club functions as possible. But, like it or not, there is a very high nerd factor in this hobby that you don't find in things like car hobbiest, or surfing, or marshal arts, the only other hobbies I participate in. I openly admit that I am fascinated by observing the apoplectic fits that can be solicited in some audiophiles if you even suggest that you have a difference of opinion. |
I literally worked all over the world including many 3rd world countries. To the vast majority of the world's population spending $93.00 on a stereo would be extravagant. But, you keep missing the point. We aren't giving our thoughts on total cost of our hobby we are discussing what gives the better improvement for the same cost. Using better components or keeping said components and improving them with wires or other tweaks.
One of my friends owns Vee Jay records and one of the largest hotel chains in the world and recently purchased a new system from the ground up. I would never remark to him on the total cost, days wages at best for him, none of my business and I love to stop in and hear it. But, if I saw it for the first time and found out that his audio dealer talked him into a Sony Disc-man, Sherwood RD7502 receiver,Polk Audio TSI300 loudspeakers and then added in $100,000 worth of stands, conditioners, and wire telling him he now had the best $100,000 plus system that the dealer could put together...... Damn right I would say something, as soon as I got up from the floor from laughing.
But, that's me. If someone can recommend how to make a $1000 speaker sound as good or better than something like the Wilson Sasha, or Vandersteen 5A or any speaker like them I am all ears and willing to announce my ignorance. |
Frogman, thank you for the reasonable explanation for a reason to allocate so much to tweaks and cables. You put reasoning was well put forth.
As to the system I am referring to, I suspect it really is in the owners imagination, I didn't add it up but, I think he listed more cables, powercords, conditioners, plugs than he had equipment to attach them to.
You can easily find his system as it consists of no pictures of the complete system instead there is a picture of some boxers. It may be real but, I doubt it.
As to the point of the discussion, because we like to discuss. That's why you added your discussion to the thread. And, sometimes it makes us stop and think in new directions. |
Meant, your reasoning was well put forth. Don't know how the extra put got in there. |
Just yanking your chain, Rok2id. I could tell you had a sense of humor.
Back in the olden days when I was in college, 901s were coveted by lots of people. I envied my friends that could afford them. I have nothing against them. They have shortfalls but, most speakers do.
Usually when someone puts them down it is accompanied with, "for the price you can do better." Again, true of every speaker. No matter what you chose someone is going to let you know that you could have done better. Besides, with just the right wire and tweaks they can become giant killers. For the price though, you could have done better. |
Thanks, HiFisoundguy but, I'm not looking for speakers at the moment. I'll be sure and not pass up a chance to audition them should I see them somewhere.
"How can anyone say.. you could have done better when you have not even listened to these new improved 901's yet? "
Doesn't matter what speaker, amp, preamp, TT, etc. you buy or like someone will let you know that you could have done better. Don't fight it, you will never convince other audiophiles that you made the right decision. When I bought my last speakers my budget was anything under $30,000 and because I travel a lot I auditioned every thing I could. If I touted what I choose believe me there would be easily a dozen posts telling me why I should have bought whatever they owned instead.
The important thing is that you buy cables that make them really stand out. Sell your car if you have to. |
Tubegroover, thanks for letting us know. I don't know what the question was but, somehow you managed to fill us in nicely.
HiFisoundguy, good choice in cables. Tell us more.
Elizabeth, hang in there, I got it. |
And again, I believe that cables, sometimes, can improve a system. That is why I don't use zip cord.
Based on your post it seems what you did to improve your system makes sense. Now if you paid $2500 a 1 meter pair throughout your system, which what little you told us, it would add up to $5000. If that were true than my personal belief is, that since the idea is to get better sound, zip cord plus better equipment would be more bang for the buck. But, the amount you spent wouldn't fall into that category. It was well spent. |
Onhwy61,
Yes, I don't like yours. I like mine better, I made better choices, you should have bought what I bought. But, since your signature indicates a liking of Bob Dylan, I'll give you a seal of approval just the same. |
Once you own a pick up truck you can never go back. Maybe a second car but, always have to have a pick up truck. It carries stuff. |
"Is there a wire that will make my Lsi15's sound like the Wilson MAXX??"
I don't think that there is a speaker cable that can do that. While there is no way to do all the scientific, double blind, etc. tests that some would demand (just the boredom alone would make it impossible) most of us ha made some effort to do some testing. And, I think, most of us agree that sometimes you can hear slight differences, most of the time no difference.
So, should you decide that you like the Polk sound but just want to improve upon them until they can compete with the Wilson MAXX, cables alone won't do it. You have to buy new power cords, interconnects, and speaker cable. They have to be expensive because only the expensive ones work, even though they are wire bought from bulk wire manufacturers, not some kind of new formula, and covered with dialectic material bought from bulk manufacturers, not some new formula. Then you must have hospital grade outlets (which only means they grab tighter so the plug can't easily be kicked out). You must go through a power conditioner not just a simple one to one isoloation transformer, which may be good enough for the extremely high tech industries but not for audio. Each solid state piece of equipment that doesn't reproduce sound through vibration unlike a Turntable, must be put on a vibration free stand that must be accompanied by a "scientific" white paper designed by someone who worked in NASA (all you have to do is a internet search, "Yup, there he is, says right here, janitor at NASA warehouse." And, that stand has to be very expensive or it won't work.
You do all three of those things then your Polk speakers will make your neighbors jaw drop, your wife who doesn't like music sit and listen or at least call out from three rooms away, and entitles you to make claims on how you were skeptical but, it made a big, no jaw dropping, no giant killing, no it was so much better you are going to keep the cables and buy even less expensive speakers because why throw your money away on expensive speakers or any expensive pre amp, cd player, tt, or amp. |
Rok2id
If you don't read my posts carefully you would think that my belief is that cables, conditioners, stands, are a bunch of nonesense. A glance at either one of my posted systems show I know each can be helpful.
Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements. RFI aside. But, never the claims you read and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack. The most common analogy that someone that understands electricity and the flow of electrons makes when trying to describe amperage is the flow of water through various diameter water hoses. When you go read the white papers on cable websites you almost always read some "scientific" explanation about the flow of electrons and words like choking, allowing the music to flow like there are musical notes trying to get through the cable. There is no choking of the flow of electrons, a slowing down or stoppage over short wire runs in audio. There is so little amperage relative to the gage wire we use. If not, what you would have is heat but that's another story.
I also believe that some power conditioning can help audio. When it works it is not what you hear it is what you don't hear. You can obtain the proverbially black background. But, it doesn't take expensive electronics in boxes with led lights. Wire windings, lots of windings, in other words isolation transformers make a difference that can be both heard and measured, this is not snake oil or voo doo.
Isolation stands. Grew out of the turntable years. Absolutely scientific and easily demonstrated to anybody. Music through vinyl is based on vibration, external vibration obviously needs to be minimized. But wait, we are solid state and digital now. Oh, s**t, I own a company that makes stuff that decreases vibrations, what will happen? I know, convince people that it never had anything to do with the transfer of sound from a record to a cartridge to a amp. through vibration. That like RFI vibration effects everything audio. Yeah, that's it. Poor electronics, poor speakers just add vibration killers. |
The small sunroom system is a room I added on to our house, the master bedroom.
It isn't designed as a audio room so the furnishings and dimensions came first and the audio came last. It is 14'x23' and I am not sure about the ceiling height.
If I want to listen at night I use headphones. After I took the pictures I added a Woo Audio 6SE amp and some headphones. It is very comfortable to sit in the chair right next to the TT at night, listen to music, and look out into the yard. I made a living for 45 years lighting people and things. You can bet I spent a lot of time designing the lighting in my own back yard. |
Frogman, thank you. I am one of those experienced audiophiles that have formed a preference for certain cables in my system. Formed by comparing several brands, some common, some exotic and expensive, while trying to help a friend decide what he should carry in his store.
"Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?"
Nope, not kidding. Most make zero audible or measurable by any means difference in any systems. Some do, always slight but worthwhile if you are trying to get that last ounce of performance. My bias came after listening and not being afraid of the truth. In regards to the fools remark, yup, we are.
If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it. Personally I think that the argument that you like what you have and am willing to spend that much to improve what you have is pretty weak. If it was true what is it that your improving. Exactly what it sounds like but more......more what?
If you are adding money to a system that equals or costs more than the system in tweaks and cables, then you obviously are not happy with the way it sounds. |
Frogman, you don't list your equipment so, I don't know if you have tried this. There is what we like to call "grunge" in the electricity that comes to our homes.
It can be audible in some systems. There is a way to remove it that is based on sound engineering and is used by many industries that have very sensitive electronics, much more sensitive than our audio equipment.
Isolation transformer. It isn't sexy, there are no led lights and it most likely needs to be put in a place where you can't see or hear it. Yes, they make noise, they don't transmit noise but they hum. And, they work.
I might be wrong but, I doubt if any of the expensive electronic power conditioners that audiophiles like find their way into places that need absolutely "clean" power. |
Problem with these tests is you really can't set up one that works. There are just too many emotional and physical aspects. I believe it is true that we suffer from a very short audio memory. Then there is our mood, time of day, do we like the music being used.
I also don't believe that we can do much better with measuring devices. We really don't know what all the parameters are that we need to measure. That is why JA at Stereophile is often confounded by his measurements vs what the reviewer hears. I can explain why a isolation transformer works and how it doesn't add but subtracts. I can't explain why cable makes a difference but, I know that I can hear a difference. But, I call BS on anyone that stakes the claim that it is substantial. |
