A true believer

I just don't get the point of these discussions. I, personally, would not spend that kind of money on tweaks, and wire; I am too cheap for that, and that is no indication of wether I feel they are worth the money or not. But, can I envision a scenario where someone has put together a well chosen set of components whose basic sound he/she really likes AND HAS GOTTEN TO REALLY KNOW/UNDERSTAND (!!!), and then proceeds to spend (over time) as much or more on wire and tweaks, to eek out as much performance as possible from them? You bet! Is that a valid approach? You bet!

Example: I own (among others) a pair of Stax F-81 electrostatic speakers. To my ears (and I have listened to a whole lot of speakers over the years) there is no other speaker that has a midrange like the Stax. Some may disagree, but to these ears, that midrange comes closer to the sound that I want, than any other speaker. I want that sound, and am willing (most of the time, which is why I own other speakers) to put up with the Stax's problems, and limitations. So, I have built a system around those speakers. In spite of my frugality, the cables/tweaks in my system cost much more than the Stax's do. Am I nuts for doing that? I don't think so. I have been able to elevate the sound of that fabulous midrange to even higher levels by judicious (I think) choices in cabling and tweaks. End result is a sound that I don't think I could have gotten by allocating that money for any other, more expensive speakers.

I know of so many cases where the audiophile churns equipment constantly, the whole while kidding himself about wether he is getting TRULY better sound by tieng it all together with this and that cable/tweak. End result: mediocre sound.

Agaffer, let's make this conversation really interesting: why don't you name the member who's system you referred to in your OP? Maybe he is following this thread. If so, whoever you are, chime in, and share with us the reasoning behind your choices.

"because we like to discuss"-good point.

OK, you true believers; I am impressed by your self-control. You are better men than I. I can't control myself.

***Wire can, in some systems, make small improvements***

No, wire in any and ALL systems, can make small improvements. In some systems it can make very large improvements. There isn't a system that can't benefit, to some degree, by the right choice of wire. The better the system, the more obvious the wire's contribution becomes, and the more potential for improvement.

***But, never the claims you read***

Are you kidding me? "NEVER"? In my experience, the change for the positive that the right cable choice has made, as measured by what is important to me, can be more than what is claimed.

***and most cables don't make the slightest improvement over what you can get at radio shack***

Now you really are kidding; right? So, given that there are so many different cable brands used by so many of the experienced audiophiles on this site, we can extrapolate that most of them are gullible fools. Is that what you are suggesting?

There is no question that there is a lot of bs in the cable industry. No-one knows that better than the good cable manufacturers who make a good product. My ears tell me that good cable choices are just as important as any other choice in assembling a good system. That choice may be a very inexpensive one, determined in part by what sound you are after.

After a lot of years playing around with this stuff, I have come to the conclusion (and I don't mean to offend anyone) that those who diminish the importance of good cable choices are either not experienced enough as listeners, have some limitation (perhaps governed by some sort of bias) in their hearing, or have systems that are not revealing enough to make differences in cables very obvious.

Agaffer, this subject has been beaten to death so many times that it is not even funny. I am not about to engage in a protracted debate about this; I think I have made my opinions fairly clear. For the record, re your commnent:

***If you think that you can add cables that cost 3 times the amount of the system and get a better improvement than "upgrading" the system with the money to achieve a more satisfying sound, then have at it.***

I never said that, and that is not what I am debating.

In then end, there is seldom agreement. The generous, PC response might be: "to each his own", or "we will have to agree to disagree". I am not feeling particularly PC today, so my honest response has to be: I can hear it, it's important to me; you can't hear it.

Peace. And as someone we all know and love likes to say:

"Regards, and enjoy the music"

“Nothing that is worth knowing can be taught." -Oscar Wilde

Rok2id, I encourage you to read Tubegroover's post above carefully and seriously. I think that not only does it provide valuable practical information, but it points to something that gets lost in these discussions (debates) all too often. There are many on this site that are very experienced in a hobby that is both incredibly rewarding, and equally complex and mysterious. The hobby is a funny marriage of the emotional (music), and the technical (audio). We tend to want to feel that science has explanations for just about anything. We want to be the masters of out universe. We are far from being masters. Those funny little flesh saucers on the side of your head, and the super-computer it is attached to, is far more sensitive than any tool that science has come up with yet. We just need to learn to get in touch with all that potential. Add to this the fact that the subject at hand (music) is one that deals with human emotion, and is it any wonder that tempers fly? By your own admission, you have very little experience in this hobby. Why not open your mind to the possibility that there are some who simply understand more than you do? I think that most of the folks on this site are very well intended, and like Tubegroover, want to share experience, and help others with less experience; in the interest of promoting something which is dear to them; music. I encourage you to be less close minded about these folks' experiences; you will learn much as a result, and enjoy music (which you seem to care about) on a much deeper level.