I agree. On an informational level, an incredible amount of stuff is online somewhere, but that has its limitations.
A stupid question for which there's no sensible answer.
I know, I know. At least I've labeled it properly.
Here goes: of the following elements of a system, how would you rank their influence on the sound? In other words, generally, which would someone want to upgrade or prioritize, and in what order, if all of the following pieces were inferior to an amp/preamp and speakers they were happy with? Power cables, connector cables. speaker cables. streaming source, music source, dac (I vote for this one as #1), room treatment, speaker placement, type of chair, earwax quotient, what you ate for lunch, etc.
I hereby give my permission for everyone to tell me this is an idiotic question since the real answer is: it depends. (But I did put a "generally" in there somewhere). Anyway, I prefer that we debate this based on what we've experienced when we've tinkered. So I guess I'm really interested in anecdotes.
Here goes: of the following elements of a system, how would you rank their influence on the sound? In other words, generally, which would someone want to upgrade or prioritize, and in what order, if all of the following pieces were inferior to an amp/preamp and speakers they were happy with? Power cables, connector cables. speaker cables. streaming source, music source, dac (I vote for this one as #1), room treatment, speaker placement, type of chair, earwax quotient, what you ate for lunch, etc.
I hereby give my permission for everyone to tell me this is an idiotic question since the real answer is: it depends. (But I did put a "generally" in there somewhere). Anyway, I prefer that we debate this based on what we've experienced when we've tinkered. So I guess I'm really interested in anecdotes.
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I can see that I'm a master of posing unanswerable/possibly pointless questions.I like your manner.... By the way it is what true master of life are.... Apart of all this information technical mostly it is very important to experiment ourself in listening and feed back modifications... What we inform with in these experiments cannot be look for on the internet... Our listening room and gear is a very specified and unique system related to our ears.... And improving it call not only for tech information but for experiments.... Simple onee but many experiments... I transform totally my system this way... Tech information is basic and generic, generic because tech information apply to all audio system... A slight modification in your room nowhere else described is specific and can give great benefit also.... I call that listenings experiments... I created all my devices this way.... Technical information is necessary but dont replace creativity.....And sometimes technical information conditioned us in the road where all are going.... all throw money to so called better design for example.... Creativity let you created your own road...At no cost.... No technical information given to me give me the idea to place a salt lamp near speakers.... My "nutty" example is volontarily chosen to be "nutty" for the clarity of what i speak about... Idiots can laugh.... |
Single most important factor is your room. It's not just speaker placement or room treatments, some speakers will never work well in your room no matter where you put them or how many magic panels you put up. You have to find a speaker that works in your room, then find an amp that drives the speaker well, and then use the rest of your cash for the best preamp and source components you can afford. The last components to consider are cables and power conditioners and room treatments, because while everything makes a difference, you can find reasonable alternatives to the pricey doodads (e.g., having an electrician wire you a dedicated outlet may be cheaper than a $5K conditioner, or look into those cheap Belden speaker wires which sound damned good in some systems and will serve you well until you can afford the fancy stuff). But if your speakers don't play your room, your megabuck DAC will sound like crap. |
I agree with Mahgister. The room is definitely the weakest part of the system, if you want to call it a part, Not only is the room a part of the system, it’s the biggest player in the system. Your room will affect the sound of your system more than any single component. Also remember, carpeting, furniture, furnishings, room shape, etc. are all a part of the acoustical profile. Some good, some bad. Acoustics in my opinion are challenging and I wouldn’t hesitate to consult with an expert or two that work in the field. Also remember, you don’t have to make all the changes, just make the ones that your circumstances allow. Another thing to keep in mind is that some acoustical issues can be addressed electronically much more economically. As far as upgrading your actual components, if your plan is to upgrade your entire system over time, I would upgrade the components that you think will change the least in that time frame first and the ones that could change the most, last. |
+1 @clearthinker. If the source is bad you can't possibly get good sound. Most important for turntables. If you read the Linn white paper (of course they are biased, but correct), it just makes sense. Each step down the line can only distort the signal, so the order of importance is turntable (or other inferior source unless you're talking about reel to reel) ( tonearm/cartridge/phonostage - integrated amp (or separates, but more interconnects to distort), speakers. Cables important too. |
All is important....But even the source is not on the level of power than the room acoustic... Why is not evident for all? Because most people think that their room is good if not good OK... Most people cannot fathom the abyssal, total, complete difference between the controlled acoustic settings of a room and his absence or lacks... Anybody can be an expert on source and decree that digital, turntable, tonearm, phonostage is important .... indeed they are very important.... ANYBODY know that and can listen easily to the differences.... It is not difficult to change elements of source and compare... But who has try to transform completely incrementally his room? And after that compare? Very few....It is way more complicated to figure out than a simple source change....Trust me.... I did it....It takes me 2 years and many materials and devices of my own at NO cost tough....It is not perfect at all... BUT there is no upgrade which can rival with this, and even not for example the change of a bad dac for a good turntable .... This is a small change compared to trust me... BUT WHY? Because the room is a MAGNIFIER GLASS of all changes on a scale that surpass all and each one separate changes ....Learn that by heart.... Why do you think rich audiophiles pay more for a room than for all the gear? are they stupid? The room is so important that ANY informed acoustician, not sellers of speakers or amplifiers, any scientist acoustician will confirm to you that : "NO SPEAKERS BEAT THE ROOM»- Anonymus acoustician But someone who has never experiment with his room can speak of cables or other "improvements".... He can boast about dac or vinyl.... There is differences between all these and big one, yes... But none of these change can compare to a very well dress room... NONE... My opinion dont come from a book, my opinion come from my experiment.... If there is so much desperation and frustration in audio community, and lost of money , the main cause is this ignorance.... I will not repeat about the importance of the other 2 embeddings.... Some will accuse me of old age advanced mumbling ... 😁 |
It seems that my post has spawned a host of impassioned viewpoints and debates. Cool. I was hoping it would. And it's totally okay with me if people belittle my premise or go "off topic." These are just more viewpoints as far as I'm concerned. I can let you be you and think what you think and write what you write. Why not? It's not like you're eating the last piece of cheesecake. (This is the last act for which I feel shame). |
A friend who had a veterinarian appointment the next morning, was asked to bring the dog's sample. Worried that the dog wouldn't "go" in time, collected it the day before and preserved it in the refrigerator. He found that a stool in the fridge was a very bad idea: :) 😁😊 Very funny.... Thanks for the correction.... Sometimes my bad mastering of english is a bit too much evident.... It is the funniest correction i ever read .... My best to you..... " I knew someone must have stool (stolen is better) mine in my fridge.." |
For me, the question is the building process leading to a satisfactory system based upon individual choices and external factors. After much research and years of listening, I found myself in the position of having the means and time to create what for me was / is a system where I am no longer chasing the last 0.05 percent. Financial considerations create a range for most all of us. The next important part is the WAF factor in terms of what our system will do to the living area. The dedicated listening room is not the norm for most people. I found that the speaker drove the amplifier choice. I went through a few amps before finding my keeper. Source is important, but I agree that room treatments have more effect on the sound. I would argue that quality source material is as important as the source playing it. I have found that other tweaks are really at the margin to my ears, useful, but nothing to break the bank over. I do have dedicated power circuits due to the requirements of my amp, but also have an 86 much TV in the room that does impact the sound a small bit, but keeps peace on n the family. Everyone has a different journey, I have found mine to be very pleasing sinceI quit changing gear all the time. Now it is all about listening to the music. |
Of course the room impacts the sound quality most @mahgister. That’s a given. My cousin has a basic system in a converted warehouse with extremely high ceilings and a concrete floor. The room is completely open, slightly rectangular and must be 2500-5000 square feet. His system sounds amazing with NO treatments since none are needed. I think his system is under $2K or so with turntable, receiver and speakers. Biggest % in his turntable (used Rega P5 with mid Grado cartridge). That’s why I mentioned the Linn paper and the source being most important - for him it is. the room treatments can’t fix a terrible room. |
the room treatments can’t fix a terrible room.Yes you are right if someone dont have a room to fix....The source is important, but then the vibrations and the electrical grid noise floor are on par with the source quality and these 2 are also way underestimated in their destructive S.Q. power...Source is important but source is part of a complex problem... This is my point... And few make it in audio thread... For the room problem, any room can be fix if mine can, a 13x13x8feet1/2 irregular room where one speaker big box is in a corner the other not....With 2 windows... There is more ways to fix acoustic of a room that there is a number of materials solutions proposed and sold by acoustic retailers...We also must add to the passive treatment and work with active one (non electronic one in my case) ordinary resonators of different size, conventional Helmholtz bottles, non conventional Helmholtz tubes and pipes, Shumann generators grid, ionizer(non ozone one) and a few others....Acoustic retailer dont propose that much... But it is the tools with which we can deal with bass and very high frequencies problems in a difficult room... And there is plenty others i did not bother to try and which are very powerful ... Then.... I bought nothing for that job except peanuts costs products , i did it myself, with results so astounding that my system bear no resemblance at all with before and after....If i can do it myself, a non crafty hand reader of books, anybody can.... Trust in your ears and experiments is the way....Trust in our own ears are not recommended by techno fad ....But a room is created for ONLY your particularly designed ears not for a crowd...We must then use these ears we own first and all along.... The results will sound natural FOR our ears....The goal is the vibraphone and piano sound must be distinctly perceived in their own space with a distinct timbral tone and his aural varying colors and hues with his decreasing decay all that filling the room 3-d and not coming from the speakers.... When you reach that you dont speculate about a source change or an upgrade.... A bad room does not exist for creative mind, only difficult one...Those who said the opposite sells ready made generic acoustical solutions and dont want to waste too much time on difficult room...Paying an acoustician will do but will be costly if the room is difficult to tame.... All small room exhibit very different geometry , very different topology (doors, windows, and openings space) and very different materials content (with different acoustical properties of absorption, diffusion or reflection unbalanced) all that ask for specific acoustical controls not only passive materials treatment.... A small "bad" room is not a vast theater where acoustic law are simpler to apply in a linear way.... I am conscious that what i propose cannot be deal so easily with in a common room or a living room...That is the big problem... And i can only say that this illustrated my final point, more than source, a dedicated treated and controlled room is the main center of audiophile search.... Not the choice of a dac or of an amplifier.... Blind upgrade consumerism motivated by unsatisfaction is not the way.... Most good audio system can deliver very high S.Q. unbeknownst to their owner because they never listen to them in their optimal working controlled dimensions, what i called their embeddings... Audiophile experience dont cost money at all, it cost thinking ears, and a room to set..... I proved for myself that the materials cost peanuts.... My room is absolutely not perfect and perhaps not even optimal.... But listening music i think that my room IS perfect....It is not a a deceptive illusion if you listen the piano like a real piano.... I dont wanted perfection to begins with, only good musical experience.... Thats all.... |
@sokogear you state
"room treatments can’t fix a terrible room".
Then what can fix it? All rooms need acoustic treatment whether you think they do or not. Fact. Any enclosed space will have a modal problem and it is this that the treatment addresses. Anybody serious about the resulting sound should invest in a mic.(cheap) and a program like REW (free) and set about methodically lowering the peaks and filling in the nulls. It's not guesswork, there is a target response to strive for. In a recent post on this subject I mentioned a mate with a small almost square room with no carpet, only one flimsy drape and very little else. Think tilled bathroom acoustics. Truly dreadful. He has a lot of money tied up and is constantly spending more trying different components. He has a collection of very expensive cartridges that he keeps trying in the hope of improving the sound. All the fine detail the carts. are capable of is simply lost in the mess of sound waves banging around his room untamed. Last time i visited he had Spread Spectrum Technologies amplification and had replaced his Appogees with Maggies. His sound is thin, has no soundstage, is congested and is dynamically constipated! I one day showed up with a bunch of rockwool panels and placed them mostly in the corners to treat lower frequencies. There was a transformation that totaly stunned him and his wife who I noticed was in tears. I know that some who read this will think I'm overstating the positive effect there was. It was significant and that was without any measurement. The experiment was merely to show my stubborn idiot mate what was possible. |
Can the elements in a complicated room cancel/balance themselves off so that it ends up being a good room for sound. For example, slanted, high wooden ceilings and wall-to-wall carpeting, and windows and absorbing furniture all seem as though they add weight on either side of bright or muffled, but perhaps they can cancel each other out? Just wondering. |
I was thinking of small rooms with limited options for speaker placement. I guess you I could try, but in tight spaces with bookcases, speakers in places of differing heights, some offices, Bedrooms, dorm rooms, etc. My first real stereo was in a bedroom, then dorm room, and I wonder what it could have sounded like in a decent room. |
Anybody that has lived through an acoustical room transformation personally KNOW that most upgrade before that is often a lost of money... Alas! all the sellers wanted to sells.... And most people had no idea that the acoustic is the main point in audio, not the particular design of an amplifier or of a dac and not even of speakers...Any relatively good gear will sound marvellous in a good acoustical settings and bad in a non controlled small room... Before i worked it i have also no idea, and it is way more easy to think about buying the illusion and elusive perfect new gear to be satisfied than thinking about acoustic... It is complex yes, but ANYBODY can listen and move or install something and improve one step at a time.... An equalizer is a good tool yes, but even without we can but on a long period of listening taking the time to figure it all... Keep hope if an ignorant and uncrafty man like myself can, anyone can.... |
@mahgister, we are on the same page. @669326 Dear OP, it does not work like that. You are going to continue to get 'advice' and most of it will contradict itself unfortunately. In my experience only a very small percentage of those keen on reproducing music bother to treat the room, even fewer bother to try and understand the 'how and why' For example: I have seen it stated that you should just cover all walls in egg-crates. This represents narrow-band absorption, and narrow-band thinking! So what will happen? The frequency that has the same wavelength as the depth of egg-crate will be absorbed and because there is so much of it that music info will be missing. GONE. The rest of the spectrum will carry on reverberating around your room totally unaffected. The above situation happens because some well intentioned ignoramus puts that out on the forum. It also exposes him as someone recommending something he has never tried but is merely regurgitating what he read elsewhere, because anyone who has egg-crated the whole place would upon hearing the result, immediately rip it all out. My best advice is to educate yourself. Get on the net and read articles by those who know what they are talking about. For the cost of a cheap interconnect cable you can buy a mic. This cable will make no real difference (the room won't let you hear the tiny change) The mic. however will allow you to significantly improve your sound. Your choice. |
@OP, when I suggest searching on the net I do not mean a forum like this. There are groups specifically about acoustics. Here are 2 links to get you started. https://www.gearslutz.com/board/studio-building-acoustics/ https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?board=73.0 Famous acousticians sometimes pop in to advise. Here is some fun stuff. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLNFrxgMJ6E https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPYt10zrclQ |
In a recent post on this subject I mentioned a mate with a small almost square room with no carpet, only one flimsy drape and very little else. Think tilled bathroom acoustics. Truly dreadful. He has a lot of money tied up and is constantly spending more trying different components. He has a collection of very expensive cartridges that he keeps trying in the hope of improving the sound. All the fine detail the carts. are capable of is simply lost in the mess of sound waves banging around his room untamed. Last time i visited he had Spread Spectrum Technologies amplification and had replaced his Appogees with Maggies. In other words the average poster on these forums? :-) |
ill listen to a $500 audio system and be polite and say Sounds pretty GoodIf i read a post of someone saying that the price is an indication of sound quality, more than electrical grid controls, more than vibrations controls and even more than acoustics basic laws i will not go to cleaning my brain to be polite but i will clean the post out of my eyes.... Oups i apologize to you....I am too rude and injust, i just realize that you dont speak about ALL 500 hundred systems but about one in bad settings.... Am i Correct ? If yes i deeply apologize for my free sarcasm.... If not i am sorry anyway....my system value is 500 bucks.... I listened system of very higher cost and i dont want them in their actual room and house settings....Mine is better... Audio simple law.... |
When the room is bad going more near field is always an effective solution. So are headphones. 🚬🥸 But truth is there is almost always a way to tackle most any room without having to go nuts on expensive treatments if you learn to assess the room properly and choose the right speakers to work well in it. Speakers with wide dispersion patterns typically help. |
The room. A smaller room is likely harder to get right than a big room. I have big speakers in a small room and it sounds perfect, but there is a bit of acoustic treatment and DSP magic behind that. A million dollar system or a $1000 system likely both will sound bad in my room unless the room was taken care of with treatments, both hardware and software based. Another effect solution is the RAAL SR1a headphone (or ear speakers). Incredible sound and listening experience. Nothing like traditional headphones. |
A few responses: I probably wasn’t clear about the complex room question. What I meant was, is it possible that a complex room is already a good audio setting without having to do any fixing? It seems like this is conceivable, but I have no experience to really know. Secondly, I like the way my system sounds, but I’ve never heard a system better than mine to compare it to and my ears are not nearly as sophisticated as many of yourra. So my question doesn’t come from a point of view of having any complaints, but from a curiosity about what makes a system sound better. Third, to the poster who isn’t enjoying reading our posts, The obvious solution to your discomfort is to not read this thread and not be burdened with posts that you don’t find interesting or valuable. |
Depends what you mean by complex. If you happen to have a large room that is open without walls close to the speakers and a listening position between the speakers, then yes. But that wouldn’t be complex. if you’re room is carpeted, and you have wall coverings that absorb/disperse the sound and high ceilings, and he wall behind and in front off the speakers is a good distance then maybe treatments won’t matter. Still need to make sure electric is isolated and vibrations are eliminated/minimized. |
@audio2design You are SPOT on! The only thing I might change would be to add #2b See #1 AGAIN!!! The speaker is the most important element. It is what translated the electrical to the sonic world. The other item is the room. You simply can't solve poor room acoustics with electronics alone. You can help for sure and to an amazing degree sometimes! But you can also do more harm than good if pushed too far. Drew |
Can the elements in a complicated room cancel/balance themselves off so that it ends up being a good room for sound. For example, slanted, high wooden ceilings and wall-to-wall carpeting, and windows and absorbing furniture all seem as though they add weight on either side of bright or muffled, but perhaps they can cancel each other out? So close to the truth. Every surface reflects, diffuses, or absorbs, to some degree or other. A book shelf full of books all the same size and lined up is just another wall. The same bookshelf with books of different heights and thicknesses some sticking out others shoved in, is a quadratic diffuser. The worst sound is a bare rectangular room with nothing in it, because the parallel walls bounce all frequencies creating lots of cancellation and reinforcement and uneven response. In the vast majority of cases what happens is the midrange and treble ranges are handled pretty well just by normal furniture and decor. What few problems remain are pretty easy and obvious reflections that either can or cannot be handled, usually depending on factors having nothing to do with audio. Windows, doors and spouses being high on the list. The same physics that dictate the above also dictate why almost everyone has the same problems almost without regard to the room. This is because low bass waves are 40, 50 feet and more. At that scale all our rooms are almost the same. This is why almost everyone has the same bass mode problems. These problems can be solved with a lot of big expensive acoustic treatments. Or they can be solved with a DBA. Your call. Either way, what we come back to each and every time, what I said in the beginning, there is no one thing more important than any other thing. There’s more than one way to skin this cat. Or beat this horse to death. As the case may be.....or as usual.... is. |
Secondly, I like the way my system sounds,This is all that matters. It doesn't matter if you have heard anyone else's system or if your ears are untrained or not sophisticated. It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks is good sound either. If you like what you are hearing you have reached the pinnacle. Sit back, relax, pour yourself a beverage and enjoy. |
Tomato juice cold with cheese is audiophile drinking.... https://www.houseofhearing.co.uk/news/eating-cheese-help-prevent-hearing-loss But champagne with cheese will do..... 😁 |
Cheese Grommet! That’s mad I think all hi-fi dudes/ dudesses should learn the sax/ clarinet- you get to realise how different room acoustics are, have the dubious pleasure of setting up PAs, blame the reed then start playing flute and realise it’s not all about the reed, realise a badly set up vintage horn is worse than a solid ’student’ instrument Just waiting for my Jones to phono adapter leads to bring the Quad IIs back to life without the 22 control unit from hell |
Sax is good! But i almost never listen to sax and most jazz is sax.... WHY? lol But i am in love with trumpet playing..... For the last 2 days in a row for example i listened to many , many files of Kenny Wheeler 2 times... Underestimated master over many.... Wheeler play with his brain like Miles Davis, but i prefer him ....My favorite is Chet Baker, he plays ONLY for the heart....No more sounds....No more rumpet at the end.... Only voicing.... |