750$ Intel NUC vs $6000 Aurender N200: I don't hear the difference

 @mclinnguy, you needn’t go all crazy reclocking the signal from your router to your music server if you don’t need to. I put two relatively inexpensive network switches between my CAT6 router and my server, and it really took away any trace of digital glare and harshness that makes streaming music sound less analog than when listening to records or music on tape.

@mdalton interesting point of view and a worthy response to my post above. 👍

@tonywinga

So why am I doing this? Curiosity and the pursuit of better sound.... .........The sound of streaming is top notch- very, very good. I even put a high end power cord on the LPS and heard a difference. I can’t imagine the sound getting better, but I have to know.... ..How good can it get? I want to know.

That is called being an audiophile.

Let us know how your impressions of the K50. Looking forward to it. I am jealous. (well, if it sounds better that is :)

Curiously- why the K50 over the N20? Or other?

you needn’t go all crazy reclocking the signal from your router to your music server if you don’t need to. I put two relatively inexpensive network switches between my CAT6 router and my server, and it really took away any trace of digital glare and harshness that makes streaming music sound less analog than when listening to records or music on tape.

@adasdad When I see what others have done in their streaming chains, this is hardly "all crazy" . I don't plan on getting another ER and cascading them, as many have done- my Cisco switch at $100 is much cheaper than some of the switches one can buy, I just got it so I can try optical. But the thing is - how does one know if one "doesn't need to" or not? From experience, one doesn't know there is glare or hash there until they hear their system with it removed. One thinks their system is glare free, and then they try ________ and the music is even smoother.

But yes, I don't need to do anything. My system sounds fantastic. I just want to. Let me ramble for a bit: 

Read about about another streamer that is rather new: the Jcat XACT-S1. It has gotten some rave reviews, just like the Grimm MU1 did. Without checking exactly I believe it is about the same price as the K50 Tonywinga is going to try. The designer/owner then suggests one should use 2 of them- the first one as a switch, into the second one used as the endpoint. Sure, sign me up! Seriously, I think that is crazy because I don't have $25000 burning a hole in my pocket, but to others that is cheaper than the Taiko, and if it sounds better than it is a bargain to them. 

My comment above to Tonywinga-, and you stated it above as well- we try it- we check it out with our ears- if it works better we keep it, if not, we sell it - this is being an audiophile.

Hello mclinnguy,

I picked the K50 for its high level USB output as well as having multiple player and server app options.  The Antipodes allows the use of Roon, Squeeze, HDplayer (with subscription) and a couple of others.  I also see the logic in their multiple processor strategy.  I'm a little miffed that for the money, they do not include a SSD.  Okay, SSDs are not expensive so no big deal but SSDs are not expensive so why not include a complimentary drive?  That's like my expensive DAC.  It did not come with a power cord.  It is considered a given that the buyer will use their own high end power cord.  Ok, yeah I did have my own high end power cord.

I thought of an analogy to streaming.  Back in engineering college in the 1970s, I remember the Civil Engineers put together a water filtering demonstration for an Open House.  They started with raw sewage and filtered it down to pure drinking water.  The entire process was viewable through Lucite panels.  Everyone was invited to sample the drinking water but there were few takers, that I saw.  The apparatus started with grates to filter out the big chunks, then gravel and then finer and finer sands until the final stage that I guess filtered out the bacterium.  

Just like the water, the music being streamed is mixed in with the garbage and needs progressive filtering to clean it up.  Just a thought.

I began streaming two and a half years ago. One of the things I notice about listening to digital is that the digital glare or edgy highs always forced me to turn down the volume. Now I’m not talking about listening levels that drives everyone out of the house. I mean my normal listening levels that can make you feel the bass but not head splitting- analog music that is loud but not so loud to make groove noise annoyingly loud.

So as I have improved the sound of digital streaming through switches, cables and DACs, I find that I can turn up the volume on songs that in the past I would have to play at lower levels to avoid that cringing glare. I see that as a measurable parameter. I find now that I can play just about any streaming digital song as loud as I want. (Ok, not including the point where my wife objects.)

Yes, I am one of those "touchy sensitive" audiophiles that doesn’t like to crank up their car stereo system- especially if playing SXM. Forcing me to listen to that loudly has to go against the Geneva Convention. :)

Keep in mind that a resolving and open stereo system has the downside to making things like digital glare very apparent.

@audphile1 

Thank you my friend.  I love this hobby, and I know you do too.  

...playing SXM. Forcing me to listen to that loudly has to go against the Geneva Convention.

64 kb/s I believe- I agree- it's horrendous and it hurts my ears as well. 

@mclinnguy thanks for the clarification!

@mdalton 

Yes. I have mostly declared victory and moved on, haven't tried/auditioned a streamer in the 2 years since this post first started. Only reason I was more than interested in the Playback Design streamer is that it uses a proprietary P-LINK (called Nagra Link) connection instead of USB that PD and Nagra share.

@adasdad 

Agreed. AG didn't always used to be like this. It was lot more respectful and polite, I don't why the audiophile culture here has degraded to this level in the past few years. I know quite a few AG people have moved on to WhatsBestForum because of the tone and conduct in this forum.

One technical point on the Plink / nagra link between the Playback streamer and the Nagra DAC. It’s not 100% compatible out of the box, a tweak needs to be implemented. Just saying this to manage expectations and to correct the record (if you read the excellent Hifi Advice review of the streamer, the reviewer says that’s it’s perfectly compatible, which isn’t quite true)

It wasn’t clear to me that the proprietary link was significantly better than AES, using my preferred reference level aes cable. The main advantage with the proprietary link is, I was able to get great sound without investing in a multi thousand dollar digital cable…the proprietary cable is “free” with the streamer.

@essrand 

One other slightly off topic observation (please forgive me in advance as I know you didn’t ask for this input):  I love your system.  It has a simple, classic elegance to it that i imagine must be very satisfying.  (As in the opposite of fussy.) I’ve never heard the Accuphase, though I’ve heard much positive about it.  At the same time, with the efficiency of those Devores, have you played at all with any lower power alternatives, including perhaps tubes?  Would love to hear your experiences if you have.

@metaldetektor Thanks for the heads up on the plink/nagralink compatibility and sonic expectations. Will keep that in mind.

@mdalton I have always preferred and used low power tube amps (Coincident 300b set amp, Nagra 300b push pull amp) with my Devores. The Accuphase was the exception. I say "was" because I am in the midst of trying to sell the Accuphase E-650 to fund a Shindo pre/power combo (which as you must know is all low power tubes).

@essrand 

oh, nice!   To me, Shindo is like climbing the mountain to meet buddha.  my other buddha is a Koetsu on a Garrard, which I have.  Please keep us apprised.

I received the Antipodes K50 yesterday.  It got delayed due to the bad weather.  Set-up was a breeze using their dashboard layout.  Since it has separate processors I can use Roon on the server and Squeeze for the player.  That lets me use the Roon app on my iPad.  I can also select Squeeze for the server too but I’ll try that later.  Right now I’m comfortable using Roon on my iPad.

The K50 needs 400 hours to full break-in.  At 27 hours I am already spellbound by the sound of this AC Hele’ne DAC/K50 combo.  I don’t understand how a streamer can make such a difference.  It’s hard to believe what’s possible until you hear it.

@tonywinga

I am resolved to use the 30 day trial period to my full benefit although my dealer is nearly certain I will not be returning it.

So the dealer was correct? 😁 congratulations. I read Christiaan’s 9 month old review of the K22/K41 today- It is appealing to get one unit and then get the other at a later point: It has been a few years since his K50 review. I assume you read it?

https://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/category/review/digital-reviews/music-server-reviews/

Beautiful DAC by the way- 

Thank you. I debated going with separates (k21/K41) and even staggering the purchases. But by the time I add in an extra power cord and an extra Ethernet Cable to connect the two boxes together, it was only a few hundred more for the K50. And the K50 has the added SPDIF output connections for greater flexibility.

I read and researched all the reviews. I also watched a youtube video interview of the CEO. Learned some good stuff about the company from that interview. He also advised that the K50 should be treated like an amplifier. Don’t plug it into a low power outlet on a power conditioner. It needs to be a high power outlet to sound good or plugged directly into the wall, he said. I bet it has something to do with the new SMPS that the K50 uses which is trickle down from the Oladra.

If you are wondering why I didn’t go for the Oladra for some thousands more, well I’m retired and my wife wants a new floor.

I’ll say this. I had $2800 in a NUC based music server running Roon plus an $800 LPS powering it. I won’t include the cables and audio grade network switches in that because I am still using them with the new K50. So with $3600 into my old music server I thought it would be difficult to beat. (Ok, the new streamer is very expensive but that’s my point.) The old music server sounded pretty good, I thought with my new DAC. I couldn’t have been more wrong. The DAC and the streamer are a team and both contribute equally to the sound. I won’t say the DAC and Streamer should match dollar for dollar (although coincidentally mine do) but they need to match up closely in capabilities, or have a plan to get there one day. It took me almost 50 years, so be patient. That makes me sound old. Let’s say 45 years. Really, I didn’t get serious into high end until 1988, so let’s say 36 years. That’s better.

@tonywinga I also couldn’t believe the difference the streamer made when I got the Aurender N200. I’m using AQ Tornado HC power cord on it, which is essentially designed for use with power amps, with excellent results. I found, time and time again, that a bigger gauge power cords work better on digital gear than the smaller gauge cables.

If you are wondering why I didn’t go for the Oladra for some thousands more, well I’m retired and my wife wants a new floor.

A new floor? well I hope she can tell the difference double-blind, 9 times out of 10. Maybe get a 30 day return policy in case she can't pass. 

I’m very happy with my new Auralic Aries G2.2 

I use a Shunyata Alpha v.2 NR power cord on it

I’m very happy with my new Auralic Aries G2.2 

I use a Shunyata Alpha v.2 NR power cord on it

@axeis1.  You spent 40% of your streamer’s price for a power cord.  What did you feel the changes were that deemed such a nice cable?  I am asking out of true curiosity.  I just spent 10% of the streamer cost and I thought that was pretty high.

Why not? I already had the cord.

I can think of many reasons why not.  That is why I asked my question.

The power cord is a component of your stereo system.  If you are going to skimp on that, why bother?

I put a power cord on my LPS of my old music server that was twice as expensive as the LPS.  Made an improvement in the sound.  Actually, the new power cord was an advanced purchase for my new Music Server.  Thought I would try it out in the mean time.  

Don’t dismiss power cords as inconsequential.  And don’t expect a lot from a low cost, “high end” power cord.

@kdeleon If a $1000 power cord on a $2000 component makes it sound as good as a $4000 component with its "stock" power cord, doesn't that sound like money well spent? 

@mclinnguy  That is what I’m trying to understand. In the original post, we are putting a $2500 power cord on a $6000 streamer. I want to know what difference should one expect when doing this versus let’s say a $1000 power cord. I would prefer not having to go buy and sell power cords when I can ask someone who did it and try to understand the benefit. Locally we also don’t have many stores that lend out all sorts of cords. Even borrowing from thecableco costs money. But hearing from someone else who has done it is free and saves time. 

@kdeleon We can state it, you can also read it by browsing all of these audio forums online and reading the thousands of impressions, but this is something you just to have to do yourself to truly understand. I can just copy and paste my own experience from a year ago: 

https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2569972 

oh my land!  Please forgive me, but spending alot of money on a power cord for an expensive streamer is nuts, imho, just pissing money away.  As I’ve posted  on this thread previously, I suspect most people with high quality DACs have already wasted some money on an expensive streamer, but don’t throw good money after bad!  While not immune, digital is far less susceptible to noise than analog.  And the Auralic with its stock power cord measures at really low levels of noise; see HiFi News measurements of the Aries 2.1 below.  The place where power cords really matter is downstream in the analog domain, so that’s the DAC, preamp, and amp.

the place to worry most about a power cord is in the analog domain

but spending alot of money on a power cord for an expensive streamer is nuts, imho, just pissing money away.
 

There it is.  Should have said that to begin with. 

I had Rogue RP1 preamp that retails for around $1600?

I bought it used for about $1200.
I had Audience OHNO ( oh no…) interconnects on it initially then upgraded to Acoustic Zen Matrix Ref II, then to Acoustic Zen Absolute Copper. I also put a Nordost Brahma power cord on it. These cables, each set, cost a lot more than that preamp. And each cable upgrade took it to new heights. I eventually upgraded the preamp and kept the cables.
I’m not sure why’s it so impossible to understand:

1. That cables improve the performance of the components

2. It’s none of your business the cables I decide to buy after hearing them bring so much to the table

3. No one owes anyone any type of justification. The best measurement tool is our ears. We buy what we can afford and what sounds best. It’s that simple.

This hobby is a journey for a lot of us, not a destination.
We learn along the way. Sometimes from our mistakes. The objective is to enjoy the best possible music reproduction within what each of us considers reasonable, for us, in our own systems, in our own rooms.

If there’s anything I’m missing please let me know.

”It’s none of your business the cables I decide to buy after hearing them bring so much to the table”

Wow!  Then why post? Why ask us questions as to what we should do?  Sorry man, but just cuz I disagree with you doesn’t mean I have less right to respond to a post. 

One other point: Of course measurements (and science) matter.  Here’s an example.  I live in a temperate region where weather hasn’t materially changed.  My experience tells me weather is not changing, ergo, no climate change.  I mean, I know what I’m experiencing, therefore I must be right.  Or maybe my local weather patterns have changed, but I haven’t bothered to monitor the data closely, so I pronounce “no climate change.”  Either way I’m wrong, even though I’m convinced of my rightness.  So let’s welcome the world of science and measurements, where the phenomena we experience /or don’t - are well explained and understood.  I don’t criticize Newton for ruining my experience of the falling apple.  I thank him for enhancing my understanding of it.  

So yes, I think you’re missing a bunch.  

@audphile1 

btw, once again you misrepresent my position.  Your interconnect example is actually consistent with my post - I specifically said that power cables really matter in the analog realm - DACs, amps, preamps.  Do what is your point exactly?

@mdalton was it not you who earlier stated this: 

 I would just note that you may have been a little harsh towards the op here. 

You just told half of this forum they are pissing their money away. I think the shoe is on the other foot.

I am done responding in this thread. 

@steakster 

you gotta be kidding me!  Find one credible authority for your view.  Just one.  

I never said measurements don’t matter.
Judging by several of your posts, you are most likely a beginner in this hobby or someone who’s been around for a while but dismissed listening as a critical, viable and valid means of evaluating audio components and cables. Probably watched a lot of ASR videos on YouTube…that will build this kind of foundation. 

Why post here? To learn. Challenge yourself and your perception you have built up over the years by saying it’s all sciences. Yes it is science that’s a foundation of all of the design and the choices the designers make. But in the end, it’s us, the listeners, who using our ears determine what does and doesn’t sound good to us. 

@mclinnguy 

Nope.  You were unfair to the op because you unfairly criticized his process for evaluating his system.  In this case, I responded to a post about spending alot of $ on cables.  I said “maybe a bad idea.”. Very different fact patterns.  Sorry.  Nice try though.

@audphile1 

Have you been drinking?  Maybe you should take a break. And then respond to the substance of my posts.

@mdalton I don’t misrepresent your point. You have multiple posts here where your opinion is clear. The streamers going into DACs measure the same on the dac output, you throw the measurements card around again with your statement about Auralic streamer measurements using its stock cord. 
Please don’t try and tell me I’m misrepresenting your point of view. Your point of view is rock solid. 

Just an FYI…because you are science oriented, in most cases, with most interfaces, the analog signal is what carries the digital signal over a copper wire for example. It makes digital just as susceptible to EMI and RFI as analog.
Fiber and optical connections are obviously an exception - the light isn’t susceptible to analog noise.  

Have I been drinking? Yes. Tea. And some seltzer before that. 

My grace digital streamer sounds fine to me, see no reason to upgrade or spend a vast amount of money for little to no difference. I stream out of convenience, no hi res for me, not that into it. The Grace sounds remarkably good for a lousy $179, has a nice screen to boot.

@audphile1 

“To learn. Challenge yourself and your perception you have built up over the years by saying it’s all sciences.”

Dude, your words.  But when somebody challenges you, you accuse him (or her) of being “a beginner to this hobby.” Who made you the audiophile police anyway?  I’ve had a system since 1977(ish).  And check out my 4 systems on audiogon - I think I have a right to exist. Sorry.

You’re good at taking things out of context
what I said was…

you are most likely a beginner in this hobby or someone who’s been around for a while but dismissed listening as a critical, viable and valid means of evaluating audio components and cables. 

@audphile1 

good lord! 

“you are most likely a beginner in this hobby or someone who’s been around for a while but dismissed listening as a critical, viable and valid means of evaluating audio components and cables.”

there, the full context, not a word of which is true.  Happy?

@mdalton no reason to get all fluffed up. You have a nice analog based system with those AN speakers…is that cat there on top of the speaker used as a vibration control? Just kidding. Let’s just move on. Enjoy the music! Have a good night. 

I’m very disappointed. I tried to be a real d__k but I guess I missed the mark. 

@audphile1 

I was being polite.

Lol. Finally…your first good post on this thread…