750$ Intel NUC vs $6000 Aurender N200: I don't hear the difference

@jrapp Qobuz works with my NUC running Roon but not Aurender, so it's a Aurender problem.

The basic conclusion I am taking from all of this is that there isn't a very big difference between an Intel NUC and a dedicated music server. It is approximately equal to upgrading an USB cable, if that.

Better to spend money on upgrading cables, DACs, Amps, etc etc, than spending 1000s on a music server.

There was a review on Computer Audiophile on the Grimm Music server MU1 where the reviewer (THE reviewer) says he heard no difference in USB outputs of the 10000 euro Grimm server and his NUC.

So while I agree, better USB/clock etc in a dedicated server might make a difference, it is not a lot and certainly the price/performance upgrade ratio seems low. 

Crux of the story: I bought a lifetime licence of Roon and sticking to Intel NUC for the time being and keeping the $12000 (price of Aurender N20) for future upgrade on cables or a Shindo preamp :)

@metaldetektor That is correct. But I need USB output for DSD in my DAC. So what's a guy got to do. 

If your server retails at 10K$ or whereabouts, can't you optimise USB as well? Is that too much to ask, many DACs NEED USB for DSD streaming.

Another point, if only the AES/SPDIF is reclocked and resampled, but USB isn't, does that mean it's the reclocking/resampling that's providing the magic? What's the rest of the optmization of hard drives/CPU/motherboard/power suppy etc etc etc that is touted with Audiophile servers DOING?

Cool. Looking forward to your impressions @metaldetektor 

Agreed. I think people putting 10K into Music servers should put that into upgrading their DACs. Until they reach the point of diminishing returns with DAC, say around 20-30K (Bricasti M21, Lampizator Pacific, Nagra Tube DAC, Brinkmann Nyquist, DCS Rossini, EMM DV2). Then perhaps spend the big bucks on a server.

It’s sad to see $10000 servers with $10000 DACs, perhaps a $20000 DAC would be a far better musical upgrade.

I have only a sample size of 1, I might get the N20 in sometime, let’s see if that changes my mind, but for now I think that the source is as important as the DAC is bunk. Get a better DAC.

@mdalton 

Yes. I have mostly declared victory and moved on, haven't tried/auditioned a streamer in the 2 years since this post first started. Only reason I was more than interested in the Playback Design streamer is that it uses a proprietary P-LINK (called Nagra Link) connection instead of USB that PD and Nagra share.

@adasdad 

Agreed. AG didn't always used to be like this. It was lot more respectful and polite, I don't why the audiophile culture here has degraded to this level in the past few years. I know quite a few AG people have moved on to WhatsBestForum because of the tone and conduct in this forum.

@lordmelton You got me confused with someone else, I have never posted about Aurender. Also I have no affiliation with audiotroy, he was just the first to respond to my thread with his promotion.

@auxinput My system is revealing enough, it can detect minor USB cable changes, leave alone whole component changes. Please google. Nagra Tube DAC is one of the top 2-3 DACs in the world right now.

@grannyring Agreed, which is why I put the caveats, but even though the cables are different, so is the output, it doesn't explain why there isn't a big difference in the sound. From what I read and all big noise about source being as important or more important than the DAC, I expected the massive kind of upgrade that you get when you go from a $500 Allo DAC (or a similar $500 DAC) to a Bricasti M3 (A 6000$ DAC). In which case relatively MINOR CHANGES like Tidal vs Quoboz, or USB vs SPDIF, as well as USB cables or isolation won't matter. But is a shock that even a minor change like a IC, speaker change would have more effect than changing my digital source.

BTW No Isolation on both servers, but Aurender has some decent footers, the NUC none.

I am still trying hard to get Qobuz working on Aurender, will report back or might get desperate and subscribe to Tidal to make the comparisons even more legit.

@ghdprentice 

Agreed. Something is off, I can't figure out what. Am having another experienced audiophile friend come over this afternoon and perhaps we can sort it out.

My USB cable is Fidata: which is relatively unknown but a fabulous cable that beat Siltech and Audiomica cables in my system.

The Coaxial cable is Acoustic Revive.

TBH as an audiophile I am rooting for Aurender, not for saving bucks. I am looking forward to getting a server that will give me a massive upgrade in my digital rig. What audiophile wouldn't? Otherwise I have no place to go for a digital upgrade except some rabbit hole of ethernet cables and random network upgrades and ethernet regen and clocks and misc doodads. 

So, me and an audiophile friend got together to sort this out.

All the caveats were resolved. Both NUC and Aurender used USB, both were fed by Tidal. Now the surprise was that NUC beat Aurender by a nice margin.

The Aurender sounded cleaner and more audiophile but more analytical and lacking lower end bass (hence cleaner we felt).

Roon ROCK on NUC had better bass and was more natural sounding. 

Go figure.

Hmmmm...now if I add a fanless chasis and LPS to my NUC it might sound even cleaner and beat Aurender in every which way.

The N200 is going back.

Anyone talking about noisy network or noisy USB etc are missing the point. This is a shootout under identical conditions. Roon + NUC vs Aurender N200 running Aurender software.

This thread might sound like heresy to the "source is as important as DAC" crowd, but I am as surprised as you are, and frankly quite disappointed.

Conclusion: Roon has done a fantastic job with Roon ROCK that has obviated the reason for a music server unless you want to spend the big bucks (>6000$ I am assuming, and even that needs some testing).

Also Roon has a UI next to none, a nice bonus.

Roon on mac mini was always meh, Audirvana sounded better, but not the same with roon rock.

Also: Am now thinking of buying roon permanent license.

@jallan, please check my second last post, they were both tidal in the latest test.

@lordmelton It's okay if you don't approve my testing methodology of playing my favourite songs and some audiophile test tracks that I and a friend know in and out and A/B test the two servers. I am not sure how your method is different, plus I would test streaming because I want to listen to streamed music who cares if aurender sounds better on a USB stick if I only listen to Qobuz or Tidal.

Not sure why you are so angsty, did you just drop 10K on an Aurender or something? :)

Just reporting my findings in case somebody is in the same boat as me. My same friend who auditioned with me, is happy with the listening tests we did, because he was seriously considering picking up N200, and now I have saved him $6000.

I will keep an open mind and audition the N20 whenever my dealer has it available (soon he says), or other servers, maybe a 432Evo or Grimm or Fidata. But for now Roon ROCK it is.

@sns That was the first thought me and my friend had. We immediately called up the dealer who said the N200 was in the showroom since July and has had at least 100 hours play time.

I again spoke to the dealer. Asked him if he was sure if the unit was burned in. He got back to me yesterday saying it has only 60 hours on it.

Aurender says the N200 needs 150 hours to sound its best. Maybe that is the issue.

The unit is going back and I might demo it again in a few weeks after its 100% fully burnt in.

Check this youtube video where Jay's Audio Lab finds that the Taiko Extreme (a universally acknowledged best music server ever) has no sonic effect when used on his MSB DAC.

The lesson I have gotten is that the effect of the server mainly depends on how competent your DAC is with input signal. Mine (Nagra Tube DAC) seems to be very competent because of various design reasons and has taken particular efforts to negate the bad effects of USB input. So I don't need to waste time with music servers just like Jay with his MSB Select 2 DAC. YMMV. 

So do a home trial of the music server with your DAC, before blindly assuming that music server is needed because some guru/dealer/forum-member says so, or because-it-costs-10K$-it has-to-beat-a-600$-NUC.

This basically debunks the source first theory of digital that lot of people in this site and others seem to be propagating.

@metaldetektor Thanks for the heads up on the plink/nagralink compatibility and sonic expectations. Will keep that in mind.

@mdalton I have always preferred and used low power tube amps (Coincident 300b set amp, Nagra 300b push pull amp) with my Devores. The Accuphase was the exception. I say "was" because I am in the midst of trying to sell the Accuphase E-650 to fund a Shindo pre/power combo (which as you must know is all low power tubes).

@mdalton not buy but try. Buying used would be okay; cause if it didn’t work, I could sell it with not much loss.

I am yet to be convinced that streamers don’t work. Keeping an open mind to see if a streamer recommended by a fellow Nagra tube dac owner works for me.

@adasdad thanks for your kind note. Currently I have taken a break from streaming, only ripped CD audio files for now, but when I do get back to streaming I will keep your advice in mind.

cheers!

It’s always YMMV.

Firstly, please try a Roon rock on nuc not a Mac mini.

Secondly, The delta between an Aurender and a NUC with Roon rock  and Quboz should be far greater than delta between tidal and Quboz.

Third, it really depends on the DAC, that’s my conclusion. Perhaps the Nagra DAC does 95% of heavy lifting that typically streamers do with other perhaps lesser DACs? Who knows? 
 

by all means spend the 6k on the Aurender, but my humble suggestion would be to try a Roon rock on an nuc first. It cost as much as an audiophile usb cable for gods sake :)

It’s been a few years, I didn’t remember, and read thru the thread, wish the other naysayers did the same. I do wish people would read the thread completely before posting their big fat opinions. Note that a few posts later I mention that both use usb cables and both use tidal and are compared and the NUC won. About as close to an ideal experiment as you can get.

I forget that many here might be technically challenged to be futzing around setting up Roon rock. But those you have the chops, I highly recommend trying it out and do report back your results if you ever end up doing a shoot out.

cheers!

@mclinnguy 

re: edit: or, maybe he could spend more :) after reading the positive results from @metaldetektor using the Playback streamer with the Nagra it would be curious if you could try one and see if it "beats" the Rock? You must be curious too, no? 

yes I am. As soon @metaldetektor told me about it (a year ago), I contacted playback audio. Sadly no dealers here to help out, but I am keeping an eye for that streamer to pop into the used market. So far no luck.