4 notch mullards are the ones that sound best.
no notch sound worst
metal base are very pricey.
5AR4 rectifier tube question
I am sort of shopping for one or more 5AR4s for a Cary SLP05 power supply because I’d like to have at least one spare and because I’d maybe like to roll two or three ad see if I can hear an improvement or vice versa. I make no claims of knowing much about the vacuum tube game; occasionally I get lucky & stumble on something that really works for me. As far as the 5AR4, I did a hit at Uncle Kevin’s site, and there were some that looked interesting (I am thinking of one in particular, it had a Japanese sounding name that started with a ’M’) but when I click on it, all I get is a picture of Uncle Kevin’s screaming face telling me "not to buy tubes" (later, when I finally took time to read, apparently his tube tester is down).
So I started doing hits on Ebay, and oh my gosh! I was inundated with choices and the variation in prices! Which do I stay away from and which should I be interested in? Would a 5AR4 from Bugera also be suitable for what I’d want to use it for? Could a rectifier tube provide a big sonic upgrade if I spent enough money on it? Can I make a sonic upgrade from what I believe (I haven’t opened up the power supply yet) is the stock EH 5AR4 without breaking the bank? I would be totally good with the $50.00 range and picking up 2 or 3 different ones to play with if those with experience thought I could improve the power supply in that range. If I had to I guess I could go more (the $100.00 range) but I probably wouldn’t be buying too many of them, and I was kind of HOPING not to go much over that.
Anyway, thanks in advance for the input; I always consider it part of my education.
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You've got it, @rodman99999 ! You should see all the "audiophile quality" CDs I have bought on ebay after a hard night in my listening room with a bottle of wine. I think I only have one more bid placed in an ongoing auction--this one is for a NIB NOS Mullard. I remember reading about a serial killer who left a note at a murder scene that read, "Stop me before I kill again!" |
@rodman99999 I may be beyond a therapist. But I have been outbid on one of the Mullards and so far I am restraining myself and not bidding any higher on it. @jpmanomet I just did go to Ness Tone Tube Sales, and right now, if I did my search correctly, all he has is two NOS Mullards @ $199 each.
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let’s not overthink this and get into trivia regarding these excellent old stock rectifiers metal base/fat bakelite base/narrow bakelite base 4 notch/7 notch/smooth plates dark/shiny flashing, seam top, square top if they are real deal uk, holland made ones from the 60’s-70’s-early '80's and then, japan made ones from early to mid 80’s they are excellent, reliable, will last a lifetime in hifi gear if the tube is properly and strongly functioning, with plenty of getter flash sonic differences among the generational variants are somewhere between non existent to truly minor, more having to do with specific tube to tube variation/use history than to the generation of production all, and i mean all, are superior to modern russian chinese or slovakian product |
The metal base sounds different than the first bakelite "fat base" or any later Mullard 5AR4/GZ34. I found, in the context of my application (a power supply for an Allnic H3000, where the rectifier is the only tube I roll), that the metal base from Holland (actually, a Philips/Miniwatt) has unbelievably good bass and more "punch" (without being in your face), but in my overall system, it doesn’t have finesse of my preferred tube-- the top octaves are simply not as open or airy. The Mullards are a standard good old tube, known for good sound, reliable service and long life. What you’ll usually find in the open market are "pulls"- used tubes that test good. Some of these rectifiers can apparently live almost forever. But finding true never used tubes from WWII and later era is a whole other thing. Andy has been a good source for that. @immatthewj - did you ever look at that Dubstep Girl’s Massive 5AR shoot-out? You will not typically find the WE tube at all. The GEC is available usually as a pull, and tres cher. I found a NIB, never used industrial version in Mumbai with one week shipping. I have a brown base too--branded as Brimar, with original box that I put some miles on. Is there a difference, yeah, but the black base I got from India is fine and a "fresher" tube. The old WWII era double bottom getter RCA is supposed to be the bomb, and not at rarified prices, but it isn’t a straight equivalent to the 5AR4; I have a NIB one, but haven’t tried it. I rolled, I found a good tube and for my system, I’m sticking with it. But I did go through the process, and have a bunch of back-ups, as well as the benefit of trying different things to optimize. Maybe swapping out rectifiers in some gear makes less of a difference, but for me, the rectifier roll was the most important tube in the Allnic. The factory tube was tizzy.
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poor noob being led down primrose path... yep, go for that metal base early dutch 5ar4 for a grand, oh, and pay up for a 4 notch plate blackburn as a back-up, but gotta be f32 in acid lettering... here is the link to the head-fi rectifier shoot out ... https://www.head-fi.org/threads/dubstep-girls-massive-5ar4-5r4-5u4g-rectifier-review-comparison-rectifer-tube-rolling-thread.694525/ ... note the exclusive use of headphones and woo headphone amps, which can roll entirely different rectifiers (not just 5ar4’s), so these are not exactly circuits designed to use the strongest spec 5ar4 over 5u4, 5r4 and others of significantly lower spec... wonderful what the old hands do to the new guy... sometimes we should check whether our own egos do a disservice to others new to the hobby here seeking guidance - well maybe our op is made of money... by the way there is a thread here on $20,000 cables... 😂 |
@jjss49 jjss49
"sometimes our own egos do a disservice to others seeking guidance"
Really? I mean, I gave my honest opinion based on my experience, in a context limited to a particular component and qualified it by the voicing of the overall system.
What did I do wrong, in your estimation? That it cost money to get a true NOS tube as opposed to a pull? |
I have no idea of this guy’s system or room. You know, @jjss49 you gotta be there. Trying to do remote troubleshooting is far from the mark. I am hardly a guru. I just know what I’ve experienced. Which is probably a lot given how old I am, and where I was from 1981-2017 in NY City. I was a member of the NY club (which had an annual dinner with the Chinese club-- sort of dare you to eat that stuff in Chinatown- I wish I had paid better attention in the ’80s). Horns and SETs, vinyl for sure. I’m not a zealot. Whatever gets you there. I’m pretty open to new ideas; I got into digital for the first time just pre-Covid. But vinyl is still my go-to source, both for the material- sometimes, obscure when it should not be, but that’s a matter of taste, and quality of the gear-- admittedly I have not spent money on digital the way I have on vinyl. I would totally understand someone today saying, for most purposes, I’m good with digital and streaming. I’m not gonna diss them. When it becomes a matter of dogma, I stand back. To each their own. |
I’d like to believe the OP capable of sorting through the (seemingly convoluted) preponderance of info and experience offered, once the tubes they’ve ordered are in hand. It appears they are disposed to trusting their own ears and don’t mind spending a few bucks, to experiment with their own equipment, in their own room. As long as they’re having fun/enjoying themselves, after the past 24 months of mandated misery: I say KUDOS! Worse case scenario: they’ll have a few good tubes to sell, once they’ve placated the Otic Nervosa beast.
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While you’re at ebay check out this link for an example of etched codes: Mullard Blackburn GZ34 etched code Top line right below the word Mullard - f32. f3 is the tube type and 2 is the change code, like a model number - v1, v2, etc. The second line - B6D5. B is the Blackburn factory code. 6 is the year made, in this case 1966 (codes with three date digits are generally after 1962 or 3). D is the month, April, fourth letter of the alphabet fourth month of the year. 5 is the fifth week of April. They started adding the week code after 1962 or 3. That’s all there is to it. |
I really appreciate all the input and there are replies I want to write, but I just spent the evening in my listening room with a bottle of wine and (get this!) some more RCA Black Glass VT231s I just got! (I type 'more' as I had had a pair of the Black Glass 231s in my balanced input sockets, and I liked them so much, I went on a search and filled all six sockets with them! It was amazing tonight!) Anyway, given the events of the evening, I am in no condition to attempt typing or any truly coherent thinking, but I shall return. Thanks again for all the input! Matt |
The adage that "you are listening to your equipment's power supply" applies. Rectifiers make differences that are easily heard. Which means you have no objective idea which is real. Like lots of other things in hifi, especially tube gear, tube rolling is an exercise in finding the right "fixed-parametric equalizer" for you. It goes beyond EQ because dynamics and dynamic elasticity are also clearly affected. For all the reverence for NOS Mullard GZ34, 4 or 7 notch according to one's theology on the matter, in many of today's circuits they can make an amp sound "tight-sphincter-ed and unengaging." They are great (and durable) rectifiers but in many circuits can lack musical elasticity. Among new production GZ34, the JJ is the most elastic, but you just have to change them out on a schedule. For daily use stuff, I change them on schedule every 9 months. Some of my amps that were supplied with GZ34 don't use the full capacity of the tube, and I can instead use NOS 5v4 or 5u4 rectifiers. When that works, the vintage 5v4 usually sounds sublime. One inexpensive modern production rectifier that I love in some of my preamps, power amps and guitar amps is the STR (Special Tube Request) version of the Shuguang 274B that thetubestore.com sells as part of their Preferred Series. In this case, the STR is ultra-hard vacuum, thicker glass and a higher grade plate plating. It's not a true 274B, having the lower filament current draw of a GZ34/5ar4, but a voltage drop about halfway between a true 274B and a true GZ34. It sounds disciplined yet elastic at the same time, with excellent, hard-hitting base and quick, crisp transients and highs. It's proven long-lasting for me. Really nice $35 rectifier. Beats all the Russian rectifiers I've tried in the past, and betters a surprising number of NOS variants. The real point here is that rectifiers can have a more profound effect on amp sound than rolling the output or input/driver tubes. So it's a good idea to start there, and it tends to be less expensive that beginning with tube-rolling quads of triode, tetrode and pentode power quads. Phil |
For the blissfully unaware: In SS, linear power supplies: upgrading rectifiers and regulators often makes some of the most audible and dramatic improvement in presentation. The same applies to tube components (AND: tube rectifiers), BECAUSE (in every gain stage): what the signal does is modulate the power supply's DC, via whatever active gain device the designer has chosen, into a stronger signal, until it ultimately reaches your speakers and ears. iow: You're listening to your power supply! again: From those that I've spoken to, component designers/manufacturers are well aware, whatever active gain devices* they choose to incorporate in their components: the quality of presentation will be directly proportionate to the quality of the DC *they modulate, as controlled by the signal they're presented. Note the number of times, "power supply upgrades" and, "HEXFREDs" are mentioned, in the following upgrades/paths/offers. Bybee Rails are another power supply upgrade/tweak, btw. http://www.rogueaudio.com/The_Magnum_Series.htm https://www.jolida.com/upgrades/upgrading-your-equipment Odyssey used to offer HEXFREDs (ultra fast/ soft recovery) as an upgrade, but: now, just as a standard parts. https://odysseyaudio.com/candela-vacuum-tube-line-preamplifier/. and from Cary:
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It also seems apparent: the genuine Rocket Scientist, at Balanced Audio Technology (Viktor Khomenko), understands that power supply/rectifier changes can and will make dramatic changes, in one's musical presentation. ie: https://www.audionexus.com/nl10_balanced_audio_technology.shtml |
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@avanti1960 I may try that, but in my McIntosh mc30 s all I use are RCA for the power tubes and rectifiers. Have to find another brand of 5U4. Always willing to experiment. |
New Sensor bought the Soviet Block plants, they are not "all the same" as one person mentioned. I have 3 different branded KT88 tubes by their various factories, and they are all quite different. Their flagship brand is based upon Genelex Gold Loin tubes. As for Chinese tubes, it depends upon who is selling them as to quality, and sound too varies by brand, and seller. I don’t know if some sellers are buying factory seconds, knockoffs, or what, but some sellers never disappoint, and some do nothing BUT disappoint. Buying from a North American seller is a good idea regardless of where the tubes were made. NOS can be well used tubes with pins cleaned up to get rid of marks from when they were inserted and pulled that still measure within specs. EBay is a dangerous place to buy tubes, though I still do at times. I tend to stick with Gold Lion for power tubes, 6SN7S by Linlai, their E-6SN7 is amazing, but buy from a reputable source. You’ll pay heavily for them, but if you go low you’ll likely pay for virtually nothing, noisy tubes suck. As for rectifiers, who makes them does matter, noisy tubes will put noise on your DC, but is it the design, or just a bad tube? Furthermore in my DS2, Don Sachs told me about a mod he did with a rectifier and wanted me to try it and confirm his findings. It more than doubled the current, though the tubes didn't come close to the maximum capability of the tube he had been using as a rectifier. Well, whether they needed the extra current or not, it made a real improvement. So, some manufactures over built their tubes, and may be able to deliver a but more current, which even though it isn't needed somehow tightens things up. So rectifiers are rectifiers and it likely very rarely makes a difference, but if it does, it does. Others may do a slightly better job of rectification, you may get slightly blacker backgrounds. Generally speaking I don't roll rectifiers, but what I do isn't necessarily what you should do. This is a hobby, and if rolling rectifiers seems interesting to you, and you have the extra change, do it! |
’Shouldn’t’ is why this statement is true; in practice the rectifier will affect the sound. This is because the rectifier has a voltage drop across it, which varies according to current draw and from tube to tube (and rectifier tube type as well). Amps designed with a tube rectifier will certainly sound different if a different rectifier is used simply because the B+ Voltage might be changed- if going from tube to solid state the change could be as much as 75 Volts in the power supply (which might challenge existing power transformers, filter caps and the like, so don’t do it...). If the amp were to employ enough feedback it could be able to reject the effects of the rectifier, but no tube amp made can employ the amount of feedback required! So in practice, rectifiers affect the sound, plain and simple. Power tubes and driver tubes probably affect the sound more though... |
