2-way speaker with best bass

KCS's Oris 150's with 18" bass cones sure pump out some nice tuneful bass and go down to the low 20's or so.
Don't know if they are strictly a 2-way as they have a super tweeter connected to the midrange cone.

Mapman, I know how the Walsh driver works. I misunderstood what you meant by "rear" of the driver. I was thinking "rear" of the speaker. Sorry. I guess I would have said the backside of the driver.

tbg,

Here's a diagram.

http://www.stereophile.com/images/archivesart/999Ohmfig1.jpg

Mapman, different strokes for different folks. I don't know what "the sound is emitted from the REAR of the driver 360 degrees."

Ohm Walsh speakers are a very unique design for getting the most out of 2 way.

The wide range Walsh driver fires downward and the sound is emitted from the rear of the driver 360 degrees. There is a large surface area available with this configuration compared to conventional dynamic driver configurations. Also the porting is quite effective in extending the low end due to the fact that it is located in the bottom of the speaker almost 3 feet away from the front of the downward facing driver.

The Walsh driver in the Ohms is supplemented by a separate tweeter for the very high end, but most of what you hear comes from the Walsh style driver.

You have to hear it to appreciate what it is really capable of in terms of delivering a realistic, powerful, yet refined low end.

The Devore Super 8's were quite impressive in my one hearing, but they seem to be off the roadmap outside the NE.

I agree with Jb8312. Please listen to the Devore Super 8's. They have very tight/accurate bass and are highly musical. They really are best with tube amps. I think if you listen to these first and then continue your search from there you will have a hard time finding a better 2 way with quality tuneful bass. The other nice thing is they are relatively small for the amount of bass they put out. If you have a very large room and like to listen at very loud volume then these may not be the best fit. My room is 18x16 and I listen at moderate volume and use a Prima Luna Dialogue II amp. I have no desire to upgrade speakers or amp.

Of the speakers I heard at RMAF, Duke's Audiokinesis speakers were among the 3-4 that most interested me (I don't think the Jazz Modules were there), if I were actually looking to replace mine, which fortunately, I'm not. They certainly would match up very well with my Atma-spehere amps.

You want "tight and tuneful bass" in a two-way?? Check out Duke's Audiokinesis speakers. I have the Jazz modules and was amazed by the impact and musicality of bass produced by these speakers, which use a TAD prosound 10" driver. These are not small speakers, but they will work in small rooms (mine is 12x14) as well as large. The bass can be tuned using an adjustable port. I tried the Usher Be-718s in my room and enjoyed them, but really love the Duke's Jazz Modules. I'm finally simply enjoying the music and will not be looking to upgrade for a long time.

That's right . . . "2-way" doesn't have to mean "bookshelf". Try a pair of JBL 4435s.

Dunno if it is the absolute best bass, but I bought a pair of Model 19s recently, had to re-solder some of the wiring to the crossover, finally got that done today and WOW! "BIG" sound at a great price. I have not found something else I would prefer at the price point.

You did not mention any restrictions on speaker size so I am going to suggest the Emerald Physics CS-2's. They are a floor standing 2 way with an active digital crossover and require biamping. They are rated to 20 hz on the bottom end and the bass has outstanding pitch and extension. (2) 15 inch bass drivers in an open baffle design per speaker so they can really move some air. They do require significant driver break in time when new, particularly the tweeter. They also need to be at least 3 feet into the room as per the manufacturers set up instructions.

Totem Mani 2 sigs
Reimer McCoullough
Standmounts and more affordable than Magicos

Debates on MiniII vs V3 has been a long and endless one in other forums, imo, they are both excellent speakers. Speaking of bass, yes, the V3 may slightly outdo the MiniII in terms of punch and overall ability to drive bigger rooms, but in pitch and definition, I'd still give the nod to the MiniII. Finally then, it boils down to taste and preferences of the be'hear'der. I did not previously mention the latter as they are irrelevant to 'title' of this thread.

And as for the Kharmas, admittedly I did not have as much exposures to qualify proper judgement, but the few encounters I've had with them were actually quite pleasingly impressive. Though ultimately, far from the wanting to replace my Magicos as yet.

The Version 3 is better than the Mini II, IMHO. The Kharmas are crap. I cannot imagine how they can sell them.

Here's my votes..

- Magico Mini II
- Kharma 3.2 FE

..But please not limit judgement of these two exclusively to their bass performance (which is 'superb' by any measure). As they are also a standard-setting examples of what best 2-way transducers are capable of today.

I haven't the time to read all the responsive posts, so some one else may have may this suggestion...

By far the easiest response I have ever had to make...THE BEST 2-way with good bass has to be the Devore Super 8s....hands down.

Try'em, you'll like'em.

John

I haven't read all the posts but maybe the totem mani 2 sigs will do the trick.

I've been feeding my 3.0s with a pair of Channel Islands D-200s. I don't have a tube pre (Sim Audio P-5LE), but I have a nice tube CD player and lots of vinyl. Things are sounding great so far.

11-17-08: Spenceroo
I've said it before and I'll say it again, but take a good look at the SP Technology Timepiece 3.0

Nice but be aware of.......... what are you going to pair them with.
Few amps work really well with SPs. Hungry little buggers. Tube pre also helps.
IMO

Mariusz

Good call, Spenceroo. I forgot about the Timepiece - it definitely belongs in this thread.

Duke

I've said it before and I'll say it again, but take a good look at the SP Technology Timepiece 3.0

If you'd like to hear for yourself how Pat McGinty managed his tradeoff in the Shearwater design, you're welcome. Drop me a line if you come to Montreal.

Thanks! I'm not heading that way anytime soon but I appreciate the offer.

I had a pair of those Altec 19's. Wish I had them back. Sold them in the early 80's when I didn't know diddly squat. But, once thing I can say, that even with large drivers in a large cabinet, the bass was not really that 'deep'. Tight/fast absolutely and they produced some fairly high SPL's without overloading my room or distorting. Very impressive I think. I'd love to hear them now with tubes. :-)

Have you checked out Tannoy?

This article may be relevant(I actually posted it on a subwoofer thread too) - it is all about trade-offs and what do you call "better" - is "better" more accuracy (good transients) or is it just copious bass (wow that thing makes lots of bass at LF).

"There thus evolved two camps of woofer design: those with strong magnets, having better transient accuracy but worse LF response, and those with weaker magnets having good LF response but poor transient response. However, the poor transient response of a sealed box with a woofer having a weak magnet pales into insignificance alongside the
wholesale demolition of the waveform that takes place
in reflex, bandpass and transmission line speakers."

Yeah, Altec model 19. someone else besides me putting forth 2 ways with big cabs and drivers. Why settle for 6" drivers trying to reach the depths, when the right size ones will do it with ease.

The Altec Model 19 has very good bass, but it's a tad larger than some of the other two-ways mentioned in this thread.

Duke

I've not heard the Shearwater, but I did own the Hot Rod Kestrels and they were very good indeed. I wonder what the designer is up to now; it seems he had a real good way with speaker design.

Pubul57,

Yes I was. I must admit that when it comes to the Merlin VSM though and I
did take a look today - they are exceptionally good - great example of
getting everything right in a two-way - you and Tobias picked out a real
winner there! About as good as can be physically achieved in a two way
design - probably the only limitation will be how loud they can play (you can't
have it all but I am sure these are more than enough for most domestic
environments)

So what is the trick - smallish woofer (less beaming) and I think the key is
the tweeter - he gets it down to 2.2 Khz with the crossover - that is hard
work for a tweeter - this probably requires something out of the ordinary
with the tweet. This means you get about as beautiful an off axis response as
you ever see (I looked up the the Stereophile review of the VSM Millenium). A
keeper for sure. Actually the Meadowlark is good too - both designs are
pushing the envelope of what two-ways can achieve.

It is impressive, at least to me--the Shearwater's bass, that is. For a two-way, it's exceptional. Mr. Atkinson is more rolled-off in his praise:

reasonable bass extension

--this from the link you kindly provided, Shadorne.

I can see the dishing in the upper mids from 1K to 5K in Mr. Atkinson's tweeter-axis plot, but like other points he brought up in his test series, it didn't seem to bother the reviewer (Chip Stern). I can't say it bothers me either, perhaps because my as-yet-untreated room is quite lively.

If you'd like to hear for yourself how Pat McGinty managed his tradeoff in the Shearwater design, you're welcome. Drop me a line if you come to Montreal.

Shadorne, I take it you are talking about the Meadowlarks.

Tobias,

Agreed. Firstly let me say this is an awesome speaker. You are talking prodigious bass in a two way. Extremely impressive. However, do you not notice the "hole" in the midrange - especially around 1 to 3 Khz? For sure this kicks butt in the bass but I am sure you'll agree there has been a trade off to achieve this (mostly unavoidable due to physics).

Another two way that is impressing many on the Klipsch forum is the Jubilee. 2 12" drivers mated to a huge horn. 105dB. My 2 way Epic CF3's drop down into the 20's. If you don't mind a 2 way that weighs over a 100 pounds, that is.

Another approach would be speakers with self-powered LF drivers that can be tuned to optimize bass according to placement such as the Zu Definition 2s or the Rhethm Saadhana. Not sure if these would qualify as 2-way, but they are crossoverless.

If you want to get bass below 60Hz from a two-way, you can get it. You have to choose your speaker carefully -- the Merlin VSM mentioned above and the orphaned Meadowlark Shearwater are examples -- then place it well. Realistic, tuneful, articulate bass, yes sir, and low enough that the wavelength is too long for the room and them low lows wind up in the kitchen. Punch you in the spleen and flutter your shoelaces, no.

Not forgetting to give your speaker good electronics, a good source, good cables... all things that affect bass from any speaker, just like placement. I would mention room treatment but a poor room also will keep a more-than-2-way from giving decent low end output. But the OP knows about all these, and the crossover tradeoff factor, and bla bla bla.

So to answer his question : Merlin VSM and Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rod IMO, and I'm sure there are others.

I bought the Acapella LaCampanellas for just this reason. Their plasma tweeter is outstanding but using it in speaker above the LaCampanellas makes for a complex crossover. They go deep and can play loud.

Eldartford - good point - reasonable SPLs in the bass means large woofers -
large woofers are ill suited to producing midrange - this is why a two way
system ends up as a near-field or life style type trade off. They are the most
common speaker on the planet because they are the "minimum"
necessary to get 60 to 12 Khz in a flat response. Since the 80's two ways
have been delivering ever more prodigious bass but this is at the expense of
quality bass and a quality midrange - it has all become boom boom tizz,
IMHO. And, as a consequence, no wonder some people are enamored by the
midrange magic of single driver speakers!

If one is to ignore home lifestyle and other domestic considerations and go all
out for just quality sound then one is forced to consider three way or four
way (three way + sub) designs, IMHO. However, there is no doubt that a two-
way seems likely to remain the most popular speaker on the planet - so the
question on this thread is an interesting one!

Those who suggest that simply adding a sub will fix the bass issues of a two
way are forgetting that this is NOT true for the majority of ported bass
extended two way designs - if you go this route then you ideally want a
sealed box two way speaker that rolls off at 80 HZ and has its design goal on
the midrange quality rather than shock and awe ( a design that is NOT bass
extended with all the inherent phase & distortion issues and the typical mid
bass bump up to give "impression" of deep bass).

These discussions of how low a frequency can be reproduced always lack one important detail...How loud? Earphones, with tiny "cones" can reproduce the lowest frequency, but at a volume so low that they need to be on the ear to be heard. Small loudspeakers can likewise deliver excellent LF performance, but not at a reasonable volume, particularly in view of the human ear's roll-off at low frequency. Large cone drivers can deliver LF at a volume which is realistic, and without the extreme distortion-producing cone excursion typical of small-driver systems trying for the lowest octave.

Audio Note AN/E's. Various ways to place which results in various bass response. I prefer the paper cones. To my ears more tunefull. The hemp will probably play louder before breaking up.

Sonus Faber Extrema and Usher BE-718 were the two best 2-way I have owned when come to bass quality and quantity.

Certainly Brobdingnag has the best bass. Lilliput may offer some astute, refined, defined and well behaved speakers but the greatest among them can ne'er be more than a magnified miniature.

Twoleftears, I take you are looking for a refined, highly resolved system in addition to bass? That is a speaker that would also qualify as a "best in class" type speaker for overall performance. I also assume your question is regradless of cost to some extent.

Check out the Klipsch Epic CF4 for sale on this site. A 2 way speaker but with 2 12" drivers. 102dB efficient, slamming bass.

The other issue with bass (and yes room size and volume levels matter a great deal)is the issue of quality versus quantity. The Merlin VSM has no output below 28HZ, but is +/- 2db 33Hz to 22KHz - trust me that is a lot of bass extension for a two-way. It will not succeed at pushing a lot of air like a 15" woofer, but that would be a pretty lousy way to build a two-way. The VSM will give a lot of realistic, tuneful, and articulate bass like no 2-way I have ever heard. While I love the VSM, I would not go around touting it as a real "full-range" speaker in the ultimate sense, but when you combine its balanced performance and incredible coherency (that you rarely get a 3-way+ approach)I think it is one of the 2-way speakers that should be on anyone's list and for the most part you will be satsified with its bass output. Unfortunately, its list price is proabably going up in price to the $14K range, which may seem like a lot for a smallish two-way, but close your eyes, it is worth every penny.

The original poster made no claims that they wanted the best bass regardless of type of system. only that he wanted suggestions for 2 ways that had decent bass.

My recommendation is the zaph audio L18 design. I have built two of them, and both times the bass has amazed me. One of the best sounding two way stand mounts I have heard. A very fun speaker. You can view the design at zaphaudio dot com. On the front page, look for the L18 design.

Shadorne you didn't mention the transmission line cabinet. Helps to get optimum bass from a small woofer. My Meadowlark Shearwater Hot Rods--a TL design--have great bass for a two-way.

In my room it was the Proac Response 2.5. They really seemed to pump out the bass. As for tuneful though, that goes to the Revel M-20. Not deep but extremely detailed bass.

2nd vote for the original Advent. At the original cost of about 130$ (I'll stand for correction on price) it was an absolute bargain.

The line arrays in my system profile are 2-ways and have bass as you described in your original post...