@1971gto455ho Please let us know what digital cables you’ve compared and found no difference. Also, what’s in the rest of your system?  I’m thinking Bose cause you seem to be stuck in the past. 

I started into this hobby when 901’s were a fad. I went another route Liking Infinity started at the bottom and went to the top, I’m there now. I do like vintage everything I own is as new or better with any updates available. It’s a large system in a large room with more than adequate amplification. With final painting done I will post and I assure you it’s not a Bose system. 

@soix If a cable is useful in mitigating noise, then the issue in the noisy component, not the passive cable. If a cable with a telescoping ground (grounded at the input, but not the output is necessary to minimize hum, then the problem is a ground loop elsewhere, and the cable only a mitigation. In either case the perception of the cable improving matters is incorrect. It is only covering up the real, and typically worse problem elsewhere, whether it's 3 semis of sound gear for a show that night, a 20 megawatt data center that's blowing PDUs, or a hifi, the fundamental issues are unchanged. If a cable makes an audible difference, or changes increase packet drops, the root problem lies elsewhere.

@atthyname Actually, it does qualify me as an expert,, seeing as how AT&T invented the opamp, the venerated 300B tube, the transistor, and yes, digital audio: Digital Pulse-Code Modulation was invented at Bell Labs in the 1930s and first used as a telephony technology. In World War 11, the military phone line between London and the Pentagon was compromised and the Germans were able to break the non-digital security system. Engineers at Bell Labs developed a PCM-based encrypted-transmission system called SIGSALY, which was deployed in 1943.' The system eventually grew to 12 terminals before being retired in 1946. Patents on the 12-channel encryption system were classified until 1976. SIGSALY represented the first digital quantization of speech and the first PCM transmission of speech. 

But, jumping forward a few decades, who exactly carries the data from your digital music provider to your local ISP? Most of the time it's AT&T. On a massively scaled global IP network, carrying ... Zeroes and Ones. They don't discriminate between voice, text messages, a spreadsheet, e-commerce, streaming video, and our topic here, music. By the very nature of their architecture, at Layer One they do not care, they are not even aware of the nature of their content. It's all, it is only Zeroes and Ones. Coming from an analog background, it took me awhile to realize the implications of such a democratic technology. But is is an inarguable truth. The physical layer has no construct that would allow it to discriminate between data types. Or have any impact on the data quality whatsoever. All those decisions are in the multiple software layers above. One last example. Does it matter if your groceries are delivered to you local supermarket in a Kenworth or a Freightliner? No, of course not. The quality of your food is determined by a myriad of other relevant  factors. If it arrives spoiled, do you blame Peterbilt? If a truck carries the best steak you ever had do you credit Volvo? They picked it up at the source, transported it to the destination as fast as the law and the traffic allows, and it was offloaded for additional processing, delivery, and your enjoyment. 

So it might do you both well to get your facts straight, avoid the ad hominem attacks and actually learn a thing or two about digital communications.

Again, working for ATT makes you no expert in digital audio transmission.

Do you stream music? If you do, how? Can you please explain your music streaming setup, from source to DAC? Thank you. Maybe I can learn a thing or two about digital communications 🙄

@panzrwagn If you can’t hear differences between digital cables I truly feel sorry for you because it’s really not hard.  As you’re obviously in the “I hear what I believe” camp you sadly probably never will.  It, however, is much easier to just bury your head in the sand and close your mind/ears, so I’ll give you that.  But only that. 

don’t think there is a need to continue arguing with naysayers, irrespective of what they claim as their credentials or qualifications, hardly constructive at this point, unless we want to continue to joust here just for the 'enjoyment' of it

any sensible interested reader sees what has been posted by various folks, the to and fro, can amply draw their conclusions at this point

best we just chill, enjoy the music!

@soix +100 Guess the poor lads DAC and digital front end are not that revealing? 

He has no ide all that he is missing when it comes to soundstage, depth, separation, and detail. 

Need to go to the bowl and find more adjectives.  But you get it and as well as @thyname 

panzrwagn

... it does qualify me as an expert,, seeing as how AT&T invented the opamp, the venerated 300B tube, the transistor, and yes, digital audio: Digital Pulse-Code Modulation was invented at Bell Labs in the 1930s ...

Let me get this straight: You're claiming expert status based on the achievements made by your employer?

So it might do you both well to get your facts straight, avoid the ad hominem attacks and actually learn a thing or two about digital communications.

So the ad hominem attacks are only to be used by "experts" who once worked for AT&T?

I understand, in order to avoid the Pretence of pity in this case we should pretend to hear what others may or may not. And further we should not believe what we hear. Simple panzrwagn, close your mind/ears join the follow me camp. File those opinions and Education in the green bin. If one should dare to walk down train tracks don’t worry if you hear one coming…it’s not there. Enjoy the tunes folks, that’s real….I think.

@1971gto455ho head on over to ASR I guess.  They are like minded and like to beat people down and attack them for opposing views. 

@panzrwagn I work for a c company that builds robotics and linear controls that are used on the ISS and the Mars Rover. So with your logic I am an subject matter expert on space travel and rocket science. Oh we also own Dimond Chain that was on the Wright Flyer so am I a aerospace expert also? 

@jerryg123 Eexpertise in rocket science? I don't know, you'll have to tell me. 

I do know I brought my technical experience in analog to my work in digital communications and networking, where it served me well in developing high bandwidth and high capacity network architectures, especially in paying attention to grounding and noise management in high density rack installations, beginning with T-1 (1.544 Mbps) and T-3 (45 Mbps) in the early 90s to OC-12 (622 Mbps) circuits in the early 2000s. And by 2008 AT&T had upgraded over 80,000 miles of carrier backbone to OC-768 IP/MPLS 39 Gbps. About the I changed roles developing high-cap data replication, but now most of the network is100GbE moving towards 200 and 400.

And that's my point. No matter which music streaming service you're using, no matter where in the cloud (or rather which hosting services are used), there's a shit-ton of networking and thousands of miles cabling, both copper and fiber involved, none of it anything more than regular commercial grade. Swapping out the last 72" will give you better zeroes and ones? 

@jerryg123 Thank you for telling me where to go, I’d reciprocate moderators, might pull it down. So a company that’s into robotics and linear controls, what pray tell was your imput ? A big company might have parking lot attendants, janitors, maintenance people, secretaries, design engineers, scientists, etc. Perhaps you can give us a little insight as to your expertise ? 

Oh just a MS in ME and I am on the application and design team. No parking lot attendants at WHQ. @1971gto455ho 

@panzrwagn open your third eye. 

Panzer Battalion @panzrwagn :

T-1 (1.544 Mbps) and T-3 (45 Mbps) in the early 90s to OC-12 (622 Mbps) circuits in the early 2000s. And by 2008 AT&T had upgraded over 80,000 miles of carrier backbone to OC-768 IP/MPLS 39 Gbps.

Well sounds fancy for good old ATT. What does this have to do with you and your expertise in streaming audio?

And you never answered my question. Let’s do it again:

Do you stream music? If you do, how? Can you please explain your music streaming setup, from source to DAC? Thank you. Maybe I can learn a thing or two about digital communications 🙄

And that's my point. No matter which music streaming service you're using, no matter where in the cloud (or rather which hosting services are used), there's a shit-ton of networking and thousands of miles cabling, both copper and fiber involved, none of it anything more than regular commercial grade. Swapping out the last 72" will give you better zeroes and ones?

@panzrwagn Yes.  Just like interconnects, speaker, and power cables can make a big difference.  Rather than being a digital cable denier I’d suggest you try a better digital cable and use your ears rather than theory to make any conclusions.  BTW, what digital cable are you using now?

@1971gto455ho You are already there. and I will be there in 2 weeks. Well St. Charles anyway. 

I’d reciprocate moderators, might pull it down. So a company that’s into robotics and linear controls, what pray tell was your imput ?

@soix "I’d suggest you try a better digital cable"

please define "better"

@westcoastaudiophile Depends on whatever digital cable he’s using now, which I assume isn’t very good if @panzrwagn doesn’t believe they make any difference.  I just upgraded from an Apogee Wyde-Eye cable, which is a very good and cost-effective cable — to an Acoustic Zen MC2 and the improvement was not small across the board.  Wish I upgraded to an MC2 years ago.  

@soix “better” cable/s without any technical data to back it up aren’t really “better”! 

 

westcoastaudiophile

174 posts

“better” cable/s without any technical data to back it up aren’t really “better”! 

What technical data do you look for when picking your cables? Thanks 

Fuel for the fire??

Alpha Audio NET - An eye on coaxial interlinks – a few objective measurements (alpha-audio.net)

Alpha Audio NET - The mutual influence of speakers, amplifiers and cables (alpha-audio.net)

@thyname When you are dealing with Layer 1, the Physical layer where cables dwell, there is no such thing as 'digital audio transmissions'. There are only 0s and 1s represented by 0-300mv for Zero and 3.6-3.8v for Ones. Layer 1 has no mechanism for discriminating any data types, that all occurs at Layer 3, 4, or above, and is software, not hardware. 

So how does a cable give you better 0s and 1s?

Panzer Battalion: you are talking about USB for audio, right? I already explained it to you how USB works for audio transmission, not going to do it again, as it sounds you are unwilling and unable to read anything that does not confirm your beliefs and dogma.

And you never answered my question. Let’s do it again for the third time:

Do you stream music? If you do, how? Can you please explain your music streaming setup, from source to DAC? Thank you. Maybe I can learn a thing or two about digital communications 🙄

@soix “better” cable/s without any technical data to back it up aren’t really “better”! 

@westcoastaudiophile Well, I had my $50 Apogee Wyde-Eye professional digital cable in my system for 10 years and was quite happy.  The second I plugged the AZ MC2 in my system the soundstage expanded in all directions and tonal properties sounded much more natural and real. If you need measurements to tell you those things rather than using your own ears, well, maybe we’re just on different planes but the Apogee will not be going back into my system.  Use measurements if you will, but IME the final arbiter is what your own ears tell you in your own system and room if possible.  I highly recommend trying an AZ MC2 digital cable in your system.  Buy used and if it doesn’t give you significant improvements just sell it for little/no loss.  Just my $0.02 FWIW. 

Use measurements if you will, but IME the final arbiter is what your own ears tell you in your own system

With all due respect, this has nothing to do with listening. Or measuring. They measure nothing. They just read about measuring on the internet.
 

From my experience dealing with these folks, more often than not, these folks don’t even have a stereo system at home (other than an Alexa style speaker, AirPods, or car audio). And often they don’t even like music. They just like to play the audiophile in the audio forums. So you are just wasting your time. Me too, but I kinda of like it, it’s a good exercise is psychology and human behavior

@thyname they will never hear the light.

@jerryg123 😉

@thyname for digital interconnects I choose cables with best EM shielding 90dB+, lowest diff-common mode conversion, common mode filter, lowest Tx-Rx crosstalk,  freq. dispersion, and lowest insertion loss at least at 6th clock frequency harmonics. typ shorter cable is better. 

@soix thanks for sharing your story!

westcoastaudiophile

176 posts

11-20-2022 at 08:10pm 

for digital interconnects I choose cables with best EM shielding 90dB+, lowest diff-common mode conversion, common mode filter, lowest Tx-Rx crosstalk,  freq. dispersion, and lowest insertion loss at least at 6th clock frequency harmonics. typ shorter cable is better. 

Great and dandy!!! And your digital cable is … ? Amazon link please. With those measurements.

Do you stream? What is your digital setup? Source to DAC. Thank you so much!

@westcoastaudiophile Shorter is better for i2S HDMI cables, but not so much for digital cables say between a source and a DAC.  1.5m is generally accepted to be the shortest length to avoid unwanted reflections that negatively affect the sound.  BTW, which digital cable do you use?

@westcoastaudiophile :

Let’s try this again:

And your digital cable is … ? Amazon link please. With those measurements.

Do you stream? What is your digital setup? Source to DAC. Thank you so much!

West coast audio doesn't want to share his digital cable choice, I don't know why! Custom made  to his measurements 

What a sh*t show 🍿

It is now. 

@brunomarcs "Custom made  to his measurements” correct!

I don’t buy critical cable-assemblies on amazon, those are custom and built of military grade bulk cable and professional terminations, e.g. Amphenol (for dig)/Neutrik(analog). All standard cables in my sys are Accuphase ASL/C series. 

Military grade....LOL.  

built of military grade bulk cable and professional terminations

Hmmmmm…. Military Grade Bulk Cable. That’s a first. Never heard.

Any links to these please. Or are those only available to members of the Military?

for digital interconnects I choose cables with best EM shielding 90dB+, lowest diff-common mode conversion, common mode filter, lowest Tx-Rx crosstalk,  freq. dispersion, and lowest insertion loss at least at 6th clock frequency harmonics.

I am guessing those military grade bulk cable rolls have those measurements available? Or you measure and sort through all cables to determine “lowest” yourself? If so, what measuring instruments do you use? Thank you

Supra Audio Excalibur USB cable $140 for 1 meter, best I have.......the other $1,000 of cables are in a drawer

@thyname "Yes.  Just like interconnects, speaker, and power cables can make a big difference.  Rather than being a digital cable denier I’d suggest you try a better digital cable and use your ears rather than theory to make any conclusions.  BTW, what digital cable are you using now?"

Your statement conflates analog and digital communications So how are the zeros and ones made better?

No one on this thread has yet to give any plausible explanation for how a Layer 1 cable impacts sound quality. 

There are lots of things that can impact SQ in the analog realm that possibly relate to cables, but none of those apply to digital. It is in the very architecture of digital communications that this is so. Analog and digital communications simply function entirely different ways. This is not a matter of discussion; it is physical fact.

Just like there is no such thing as quantization error in analog; there are no such things as RF rejection, or ground loops in glass fiber. And at Layer One in digital communications, whether copper, glass fiber or RF (WiFi and Bluetooth) there are only zeros and ones, regardless of whether it's audio, video, social media or e-commerce. That's all there is, nothing more. Until you grasp that simple concept, you simply cannot claim any understanding of digital communications, or what may ultimately impact sound quality exiting a DAC.

@panzrwagn : You never answered my question. So here we go for the fifth time:

Do you stream music? If you do, how? Can you please explain your music streaming setup, from source to DAC? Thank you. Maybe I can learn a thing or two about digital communications 🙄

@thyname "And please enlighten me, where else in cables we should look for a difference maker?"

You shouldn't be looking at cables at all, you should be looking at Codecs, more specifically how a given codec has been implemented, and the containers used.

And the containers

With even a quick browse you'll realize there's lot of ways these algorithms can be and are implemented, and coding one way and decoding in another can lead to all kinds of spurious output issues.  

Great. You really think I would open your links? 😂

@panzrwagn : 

You never answered my question. Perhaps you missed it. Let’s try again. So here we go for the sixth time:

Do you stream music? If you do, how? Can you please explain your music streaming setup, from source to DAC? Thank you.

Hmmm another Hijacker.

Oh, and as for my personal listening, I stream Amazon UHD because Prime and Qobuz because it's probably overall the best.

My DAC uses the AK4490 DAC chip set to an unstressed 24-bit / 192 kHz (or DSD 5.6 MHz) in deference to the extra noise likely to be an issue at the full 32-bit / 768 kHz (DSD 11.2 MHz) implementation.

My preamps include a modified and upgraded APT-1 and a Marantz PM7000N.My power amps include the Nelson Pass designed Adcom 545 100W/ch MOSFET and a Mcintosh MC240.

For speakers, I have KEF LS-50s, Magnepan LRS, and Monitor Audio Silver 300 7G, as well as Grado and HiFiman Sundara headphones.

Other Sources include a VPI Prime Scout w/JMW-10-3D Unipivot arm and Hana SH moving coil and a Marantz CD6007 CD Player. 

While we’re at it, here’s another good reference

Digital to Analog Conversion

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/engineering/digital-to-analog-conversion

"After DAC, the analog signal is sent to the anti-image analog filter, which is a lowpass filter to smooth the voltage steps from the DAC unit.". There are numerous filter designs and theories about them. I leave it to you to conclude the best.

Concerning quantizing noise, there are four kinds: overload noise, random noise, granular noise, and hunting noise.

Overload noise is the level of analog waveform at the input of the PCM encoders must be set such that its peak value does not exceed the design peak of the quantized V volts. If the peak input exceeds V, then the recovered analog waveform at the output of the PCM will have some flat tops near the maximum values.

Random noise, This noise is the result of random quantization errors in the PCM system under normal operating conditions.

Granular noise When the analog input level is reduced to a relatively small value with respect to the design level, the error values are not equally likely from sample to sample.

Hunting noise This occurs at the output of a PCM system. It can occur when the input analog waveform is almost constant, even when there is no signal during these conditions.

@panzrwagn : thanks for describing your system. Questions:

My DAC uses the AK4490 DAC chip set to an unstressed 24-bit / 192 kHz (or DSD 5.6 MHz) in deference to the extra noise likely to be an issue at the full 32-bit / 768 kHz (DSD 11.2 MHz) implementation

What is your DAC? Brand / model? what chip a DAC uses is of very little importance, it's the implementation that matters. I have a feeling it's a China DAC, topping or similar, but hey, zeroes and ones, right? Any $2 DAC chip competent enough would do?

I stream Amazon UHD because Prime and Qobuz because it's probably overall the best.

Question is: HOW do you stream? Your DAC has a network bridge built in? If not, what is your streamer, and how are you connected to the DAC?