Why no Class D integrated love? (from manufacturers)

You can get Any McIntosh amp ever made serviced.   Just sayin’

What worries me is down the road , these Hypex and ICE type modules will be no longer available for repairs like in the early Audio Research digital amps.

Yes even now many techs will not try to repair them down to component level, as they are very congested with smd (miniscule) parts, and the pcb's (printed circuit board) itself can be two three or even 4 layer designed which make it impossible to trace a fault.

Many techs I know now, just say throw the whole module out and put a new one in, if it's still available!!, if not the amp becomes junk.

Cheers George

What worries me is down the road , these Hypex and ICE type modules will be no longer available for repairs like in the early Audio Research digital amps.

Don't forget Rowland / JRDG - they have been making Class D integrateds for at least 10+ years now.  I had the original Concerto with Harbeth SHL5 and thought it was a fantastic combo. 

Bel Canto C5i uses ICEpower.

Recently I just bought NAD M22 V2 power amp, it’s based on Hypex NCore module, my first impression it sound very detailed and HD, don’t have any filter or roll off, both treble and bass, speakers being driven is a pair of Wharfedale Denton 80th Anniversary, I have owned some amps like Topping TP60, NAD 3020i, Marantz PM6005, Marantz HD-AMP1, Yamaha A-S801, TEAC AX-501, and Class D Audio SDS-470C with upgraded power supply. My source is FLAC files being channeled into a DAC/preamp Fostex HP-A3. Frankly, I’m disappointed how NAD M22 V2 sound like, compare to my favorite Class D Audio SDS 470C, it’s a bit more details and bassy than I want, while the SDS-470C sound sweet and bass just tight and right, I feel magic when I hear the sound, I guess some kind of filters here did work best for my ears to listen to, some people describe the SDS power amp sound as "tubelike", whatever, so far I still haven't found any amp that beat it, seriously? Having said that, I think I will keep the NAD M22 V2 until I find another better matching speakers perhaps like Dynaudio Contour 20 or the new Dynaudio Evoke series?

BTW the Primare I25/I35 use proprietary class D tech where as the I15 uses Hypex modules, but again not the more powerful modules. 

Well I am looking up to 2k used and I’m class agnostic. I’m putting together a system from scratch around the speakers I’ve wanted for awhile now, C7es3’s. I do have a Job Integrated which works very well with the Harbeths but I want to have an upgrade path and options. The Job only allows you to use the internal DAC even the RCA’s go through it (older version). I’ll be selling it as soon as I find its successor. Right now I’m borrowing a used Parasound HINT from a local dealer and I have to say it sounds pretty fantastic with the Harbies even using the internal DAC. I will probably borrow the Heed Elixir as a possible bubget option. They do carry Primare as well but the I25/I35 are over my budget right now, although I think they sound fantastic and have NONE of the high frequency issues mentioned above to my ears, so I may try the Primare I32. I am also thinking of trying the Wyred 4 Sound STI-500 and the Clones 25IRH. Like I said, class agnostic. Just want to find the magic combo in my range. Any input or other ideas is appreciated.
As far as separates, Nord and Odyssey are on my radar, possibly Parasound again. 

One of the issues about “No Love” is threads that say Class D is the future and the rest of you will be constrained to the scrap heap.

why so few, if any affordable/budget Class D INTs around?
I asked a similar question on amps in general, of someone who's far more into the stream of things than I at the time, and he said, more or less, "if you are building something for sale, and the process is essentially amounting to the approximate same amount of time to build, would you prefer to build a thing you can sell for $5K, or something you can sell for $50K instead?.

i found this notion interesting but it had to hinge upon one important fact, the higher costing unit had to have the same or greater degree of profit ratio, .

I'm not sure this is an 'absolute' in audio.

but... if a $5K item yields 20% profit, and so does a $50K device you gotta choose which street you want to live on... the one with $1K but maybe with more sales, or the one with $10k but maybe fewer sales over the same period.

this is where trends sueprceed ordinary business blueprints.

the primary diff in higher end audio is element of 'emmotion'. emmotion and of course, ego and fear.

high end audio has put a bug in every audio nuts ear that buzzes saying the more you spened the better things get! everytime!
the line drawn where price no longer equates to performance often gets murky or even forgotten when we consider audio products, or there is no tangible way to compare A with B appropriately, then ego or fear and certainly one's wallet fuels the bargaining process.

if a budget gets expanded, it will come from ego or fear in the mind of the buyer. the seller already knows what they gotta get.

popularity too garners demand but I think with custom built hand made cottage industry at its finest products, it comes down to profit vs effort and investment.

it could be too, its simply cheaper to build non class D INTs at the moment.

or no 'pressing' demand is at hand for Class D INT amps.

it seems too, that more and more upscale INTs are being built with discrete or old school topologies, T+A; 'Ypsalon'; Master; VAC; Hegel; Luxman; etc.

as said, there are some out there already if one looks long enough. PSA, Rowland, etc..

I would pass on Class D right now because it's in that vibrant adolescent stage of technology advancement, which generally means that progress happens quickly and previous versions of the technology depreciate alarmingly.  Personal computers and mobile phones went through the same phase.  The good news is that such technologies quickly reach the overkill stage and the depreciation curve begins to flatten out as the new versions are only incrementally better.

Don't you mean digital amplifiers? Lyngdorf makes the best digital amps and integrateds and you get the enormous benefit of room correction. Stop thinking of digital as Class D.  There is more than one way to do digital amplification and the ones about which you are referring to are much less quality sound and build. Bel Canto though is a serious competitor though you will have to pony up thousands more.  Frankly, "class-D" is much more a pro audio product than a consumer music product. Very different end goals and speaker mating.

In Europe much more so it more main stream. I have the Very good Gato Audio 400s integrated amp from Denmark , a work of art in design and function.
they take the Danish Pascal pro  amp modules and modify them as well as the analog input and putput stages , with a good   Integrated          Burr Brown dac  for $6500:it beats a lot of$10k seperate combo 
units. Jeff Roland also uses the same modules , Mark Levenson 
as well as Merrill audio in the US make very good upper end digital audio equipment .

I believe the new Peachtree integrated’s are based on the new  ice power modules. There are a few pretty good reviews of the nova 300. 

kosst_amojan:
"Integrated amps are a budget item. Class D amps are already a budget item. How cheap can you build something before it's believed to be HiFi?"

Hello kosst_amojan,

     Spectacularly uninformed and elitist comment that demands immediate rebuking and ridicule.  The natural and appropriate human emotion for making such a condescending and regrettable statement is tremendous shame.  
      I think you need to reflect on exactly what you are stating and implying.  You obviously have great and unjustifiable disdain for integrated amps, class D amplification and budget audio equipment in general.  You even further demonstrate your blatant arrogant snobbery by dismissingly referring to high quality low price audio equipment as 'cheap' and 'budget' rather than the much more accurate descriptions of 'a great bargain' or 'a steal'. 
       Are you really so inexperienced and naïve to equate price to the performance and sound quality levels of modern audio equipment?
      I suggest you either educate yourself on the great bargains and excellent performance levels of current integrated and class D amplifiers or refrain from making such uninformed and misleading statements.


Thank you,
    Tim



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"I'm Willing to go back to separates if I have to, just it would be nice to have the choice without it being a huge compromise."

     Understood. But it's also a matter of how long you're willing to wait, correct?  As you know, there's definitely advantages to both.  I consider the flexibility to upgrade either pre or amp at any time especially useful at this point in class D amp technology's development.  The use of very fast switching GaN FETs in class D amps allows significant reductions in transistor dead-time which directly results in significant reductions in distortion levels and according to many initial reviews, significant improvements in subjective sound quality.
      The use of GaN FETs in class D amps has already begun but thus far has been limited to use in only the relatively higher priced amps.  At about $3 each, these GaN FETs are not expensive in absolute terms but only in relative terms when compared to the cost of silicon based MOSFETs that have been typically used in class D amps.  
       Even if class D amp makers and assemblers weren't easily able to pass on the costs of $3 GaN FETs to consumers, I believe the competitive advantage gained by using these new FETs would still provide sufficient incentive for most to utilize them in their more affordably priced class D amps rather quickly.  
       I also believe the current shortage you noticed in the number of currently available class D integrated amps may be related to the new GaN FETs since numerous amp makers may have scrapped plans for introducing  integrated class D amp models using traditional MOSFETs and decided instead to redesign them using the superior GaN FETs, which would cause delays and result in an apparent shortage. 

     Of course, the above is admittedly all suppositions on my part based on my current likely limited knowledge and definitely limited logical reasoning capacity.  I welcome the commencement of punching holes in my suppositions and reasoning by all members and readers.
    In the highly unlikely case there are no holes to be punched, however, I would  suggest you have 3 reasonable options:

1.  Wait for an integrated class D amp using the new GaN FETs that meets your performance and budget requirements to be available.

2. Switch back to separates and wait for a class D amp using the new GaN FETs that meets your performance and budget requirements to be available.

3. Switch back to separates, buy a good used class D amp using the current MOSFETs and update to a new or used class D amp using the new GaN FETs that meets your performance and budget requirements at a future time of your choosing.

     I think option 3 may be an especially attractive option if you're willing to wait until there are more affordable class D amps available using the new GaN FETs since there'll probably be a glut of good class D amps using the inferior MOSFETs on the used market at bargain prices.  I'm fairly certain you could buy my excellent sounding D-Sonic M3-600-M class D monos in like-new condition at a bargain price if you're willing to wait.

Tim   
     

OP: what kinda budget for a class D integrated amp (“affordable” isn’t defined)? For $4k, you can have this puppy: a GaN-based Technics network/integrated amp that includes a GaN FET driver stage:
https://www.technics.com/us/products/grand-class-g30/network-audio-amplifier-su-g30.html
A review is available at this link:
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/amplifier/integrated-amplifiers/technics-su-g30-network-audio-am...

PS Audio’s implementation of proprietary input and output stages coupled to ICE Power modules are state of the art and fully demonstrate what this class of amplification is capable of. I was a devoted tuboholic and recently migrated to their monoblocks. All the sonic wonders of tubes without the dynamics limitations are there.

im Willing to go back to separates if I have to, just it would be nice to have the choice without it being a huge compromise. 

     Is there a good reason you want to avoid separates?

I did find the Marantz PM10 that is based on the NC500 but that is $8k, so not in my definition of affordable.

yes but which Hypex? Not the higher end modules that I'm aware of.

NAD and Marantz have Hypex in integrateds. :)

It looks like the Nord INT can be had with the IcePower 1200AS2, so there's one at least. Still haven't seen an NC500 based integrated yet. LKV is a good suggestion. I'm sure it sounds great but again it's based on a lower end Hypex module. 

Lkv research verito is an excellent integrated, particularly if you need a phono. 

I forgot to mention Wyred 4 Sound, although I'm not sure which IcePower modules they use. I hear nothing but good things though.