Why no Class D integrated love? (from manufacturers)
Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that Class D integrateds are not receiving the same attention from manufacturers as a whole. Sure there are the Peachtrees and NAD's of the world but by and large it seems the better class D tech is going into separates right now and that's somewhat disappointing to me. It's easy to find affordable separates based on the latest Icepower and Hypex modules but almost impossible to find integrateds based on anything but the lower end modules, for example the Nord integrateds. Perhaps I am missing something? It just seems like this is an area that is ripe for some innovation. Anyone making "affordable" integrateds based on Hypex NC500 or IcePower AS1200 for example?
I have heard the Gan fet amp ,the cheaper ones pretty respectable but not better then good conventional amps, Merrill Audio and others have starting at $16-35k gan amps that are very good , but at that price many other conventional designs may better it in specific areas ,nothing is perfect and all Audiophiles have a sonic preference from Single ended triode tubes, to class A ,Ultralinear,Class AB Solid state, hybrid tube -SS , class D , there are finally very good sounding in All amplifier categories. I was just listening to a Excellent Classe class D amplifier and had great clarity and sounded like a very nice vacuum tube amp with exceptional detail ,the 2200i, which was recently discontinued, their new line is better still which I was a bit surprised having owned a Audio store and 40 years in Audio it has come a Loong way since the 70s. Many good values especially in the used market if you do your home work. I am thinking about purchasing one of the top classe Integrated Excellent value,very versatile .having several great designs and 4 k hdmi on a great Blu-ray player and my Big LG Organic LED Tv, movies as well as concerts can be done all in one very good integrated amp.And look and sound a Great. that being said one guy said it had no life . Maybe true for it was not setup properly,or not with good cabling,even a power cord made a noticable difference in its balance a very good indicator of a good amp it detects every change made in the Audio chain .listen in your own system then decide reviews are a good reference , but your ears are the best judge of what balance you prefer.
I have a friend who own the Classe 2200i and I am a 40 year vet and owned a Audio store. I put the 2200i in my system which used very good custom vacuum tube gear as well as Digital from Denmark Gato Audio ,and Pass Labs class A Amps and Parasound Halo, McIntosh . They all have their strong and weak points , I think the Classe is very musical and not plain like I read a few references, that is IMO just bad cable matching .this amp deserves and responds to a very good power cord, even the Fuse responds well ,that is a mark of a very good design ,you can hear into the recording. I put my modded Lampizator Amber 3 on it which has several tubes and it is very involving and sweet . that is why I find a lot of ignorance sometimes on these forums based on A brief listen at a dealer. Who may or may not hav3 tried other options ,and to their ears may sound good this amp has received several A, or high recommended ratings ,which is better then most of any amplifier type. Unless you have a Big $$ to spend then nothing we’ll be the end all. I would like to also mention if you hav3 a very high quality Blu-ray player this can connect directly to its HDMI. And is fantastic with movies,as well as concerts, and it has several patents in keeping the digital signal intact until the end conversion. At $5500 retail actually a excellent buy . In fact I am now buying one used.
Muti-inputs corrupt the signal to a degree and this is more noticeable with Class D because of it's purist design.
This is nonsense.
Another thing, I'm surprised these designers are making the boards as
small as they are. My design is going to have the parts separated more
from each other and I will also be using a different material for my
boards.
The reason class D boards are kept small is to prevent EMI due to the increased inductance of longer traces. You'll figure this out when you actually get into your design...
I’m looking at the Yamaha, Denon and Pioneer integrated amps with 85W per channel at $550.00 to drive my JBL’s at boom boom levels. Is there an integrated class D with a remote at this price point? The closest one I saw are the Crown class D amps but they are power amps.
Considering how good and how cheap chip amps like the 3255 are, I’m looking forward to some greatly improved implementations in the realm of single-box integrateds. Even a very good, full-featured one should cost well under $1000.
Full-featured doesn’t mean what it used to. We no longer need half a dozen analog inputs, but maybe a couple plus one or two digital if you want that on board. But I definitely want a decent power transformer inside the box and a detachable power cord would be nice too. Heck I should start a list.
After some time with the NAD M22 v2 power amp, I think I can live with it, it’s pretty neat detailed hifi like, most probably a very transparent amp, thought that it’s a bit under power though.
Now why exactly do I want to show distortion graphs?
To prove your hearsay.
Because your the one that said "Muti-inputs corrupt the signal to a degree and this is more noticeable with Class D"
Granted multiple inputs and the switches to do it do, create more distortion than just a single input with no switches. But it stays the same feeding either solid state Class-D or a solid state Linear amp, to say you can hear it worse into a Class-D than a Linear amps is just plain BS.
Now why exactly do I want to show distortion graphs? I have no problem hearing what I and others test. Wouldn't a distortion graph be for those who can't hear?
Muti-inputs corrupt the signal to a degree and this is more noticeable with Class D I’m not a fan of multi input devices period for purist listening, they’re noisy.
Sorry, but nothing you said gives a technical reason for you to say: "with multi inputs, a solid state Class-D is more susceptible signal corruption than a solid state linear amp is" If you still believe this please show some distortion graphs proofs of both situations to explain to what seems to me to be a furphy.
Off topic, but I borrowed a Naim UnityQute2 over the weekend that I ended up really enjoying with my Harbeths. I get the Naim/Harbeth love now, even with an entry level unit no longer in production. One thing I noticed when A/B’ing with my setup is that things sounded cleaner and clearer at a microdynamic level, esp at low volumes when streaming Tidal. My SMS-200 into Ideon Audio 3R into the Job amp sounds impressively clean and spacious, for a USB setup but I feel like the UnityQute2, with just ethernet going straight in and no USB in the chain had some sonic advantages that brought it closer in some ways to CD or CD rips on a server. Anyone else have this experience? Makes me rethink everything really. We buy all these high end cables and reclockers etc to improve the USB signal when just eliminating USB entirely from the chain seems, in my limited experience admittedly, to be the simplest and best performing option. I'm now looking at all in one options as potentially superior for those doing a lot of streaming.
I'm not a fan of multi input devices period for purist listening, they're noisy. The amplifiers I have listened to using multi-inputs and the same amplifier with the inputs removed (except for one input), the single input sound far more dynamic and clean (effortless). This is true with all types, but I am noticing things with the chip amps and the way most of them are made on smaller boards that are audible. For example, add inputs to the chip amp too close to the chip itself and you can hear the distortion. Plug ICs in with nothing hooked up and you can hear it as well. Now go back to one input wired and there's more meat on the bones.
Another thing, I'm surprised these designers are making the boards as small as they are. My design is going to have the parts separated more from each other and I will also be using a different material for my boards.
These chips are sensitive and certain parts too close to the chip can make these amps sound odd. I'm not going to share too much because I'll be making my own, but these chips are fascinating when it comes to their surroundings.
I'm also not understanding why so many are putting these chips in aluminum chassis. These chips do not like being placed in aluminum enclosures. Again I'm playing with different types of chassis and metal seems to be a no no with these chips. I have a problem with chassis period and metal (including aluminum) close in the sound.
While we're taking the time to develop the chip amp we should also revisit metals and shielding, from a field and listening point of view. Now is the time to revisit theory making and get rid of this whole audio shielding thing. Audio parts being too close together and then throwing shielding in is a bad practice.
I don't know if I answered your question, sorry if I didn't. I'm use to listening to parts and pieces and that's how my mind works as I redo electronics.
are there any Class D integrated amps that put out 100 to 150W RMS per channel at USD$200 or below? I want to get a Yamaha R-S202BL Stereo Receiver but in lieu of that i want to try a class D instead.
In my system that I listen to every day, I'm using the Bel Canto Black EX integrated amp. Sure, it's a pricey piece, but unbelievable and certainly doesn't leave me wanting for any other amplification topology such as Class A or Class AB.
Input cross talk is one reason. Class D is a different animal as compared to A/B and A. Muti-inputs corrupt the signal to a degree and this is more noticeable with Class D because of it's purist design.
kosst amojan:"You do realize you're using those amps at their highest possible distortion power level, right?"
Wrong, good class D amps don't behave like traditional linear amps. They have extremely low distortion (like .005%) over the entire power curve up to max output without clipping. Oh, they have very high S/N ratios and exceptional dynamics due to all the extra power, too. You're really missing out on something spectacular.
mapman,
Amen, brother! Class D is the cat's pajamas.
I use 1,200 watt class D mono blocks on my 86dB Magnepans and beautiful totally engaging music with an effortless quality is a very good description of what I'm hearing, too. Plus the dead-quiet background and powerful dynamics.
I listen to the beautiful totally engaging music they produce effortlessly with my big Ohm F5s or any other speaker I choose at any volume I choose, without ever breaking a sweat. I also run a pair of Kef ls50s off them in a smaller room (along wih separate powered sub) and the results are spectacular. Come hear it sometime!
C5i is all digital. Analog inputs are converted to digital. My only reservation is I wish it were more than 60w/ch. The Bel Canto ref1000m Class D amps in my main rig are 500w/ch.
Dark side? Could be. In what way? Going digital? I haven’t arrived anywhere radically new audio wise in recent years. Maybe I started out that way.
I even convert my vinyl to digital and play it from my music server from there. Sounds just like the vinyl despite now digital. How does that happen?
that seems like a solid deal. Never heard any Bel Canto. Are there true analog inputs or does it run everything through the dac? Also, if you tell me that it compares well with the Parasound, it will get lots of love. i would put it on the list with Primare.
Here is some Class D integrated love to help fill the void: I love my Bel Canto c5i digital Class D integrated I picked up used right here on teh Gon for <$1000.
I don’t know anything about this amp other than what I read here, "Proprietary Class D implementation", not ICE or Hypex. I have heard it in action with a vinyl source, Moon phono stage and some BMW 702 speakers and I thought it all sounded really nice. I also know some dealers who have some really good deals on this amp right now. Let me know if any person is interested.
I have not heard the I32 yet, however I have heard the I25 and I35 In 2 separate systems that are not my own. The I35 is at the same shop as the HINT but in a different system. I’m very familiar with the HINT at this point and I find it to be commendably transparent and neutral to warmish. It lends a certain body and weight to instruments and voices that Can work great in Many systems. The Primare amps strike me as even more neutral with stunning clarity. They are very truthful amps with very good bass response. So my take is that the Primare is more revealing so if your source is great you will get great results. The HINT seems a bit more forgiving. All 3 are great amps in my estimation. I’m still considering the I32 but I haven’t moved on anything yet.
What happened to the Primare I32? Did you compare it to the HINT and find you prefer the latter? Disclaimer: I own the I32 and it's the best sounding integrated I've heard yet.
Lyngdorf has some excellent products that fit this description. They really aren't class D architecture, but are true digital integrated amps. I tested these against many competitors in my system before deciding on Lyngdorf as the winner. All others were separates. Including much more expensive Valve and SS systems.
I understand how some having been exposed to cheap class D amps would react like they do. But, they failed find out about the excellent ones. I find that with a great class D amp in certain respects tubes will not be missed. There is one company that does not buy modules from Hypex nor ICE. They pioneered their own design and use them in their own amps. For an integrated amp? NuPrime makes several integrated amps. Links to reviews within the review.https://audiorevelation.com/products/nuprime-ida-8-integrated-amplifier I own two different of their amps. Some people here would hush up if they heard what they can do. These are not cheap class D circuits. And, they have pioneered their own designs.
The Marantz HD-AMP1 is sort of an Enigma. Between reviews and discussions, it’s either the best budget amp ever or a piece of crap lol. I guess maybe the truth is usually in between. I think it uses less powerful hypex? Thanks for the Rogue info. Been curious to hear their hybrids.
The Rogue uses Hypex UcD 400 modules. Yes, I know, older class D technology. But the Rogue has a tubed pre section and actually sounds quite good. Using Mullard NOS 12au7 tubes seem to make this amp a lot sweeter sounding than the stock JJ tubes. I'm going out on a limb here, but I tend to think Rogue will be coming out with a new integrated with Newer Hypex modules or maybe the New ICE modules? Time will tell.
Well, so far the Parasound HINT is my benchmark (with the C7es3) by which all others will be judged: After trying the Heed Elixir for a longer listen with a friend, it’s not a keeper at all. Parasound blows it away. Case in point, listening to Radiohead, All I need. Towards the end when things start getting dense with the organ and bells sounds etc, with the Parasound I was able to hear every distinct sound including hearing exactly what was being played on the bells, imaged high and to the right. Through the Heed I had to strain to hear the same thing as it was all smeared. Also the tone of voices and instruments was much more natural and 3 dimensional with the Parasound and more detail. So, as expected, a blowout win for the HINT. Not unexpected for the price but I had higher hopes for the Heed after reviews. So, I repeat - if there's a class D integrated that is on the same level or better than the HINT for near the same price let me know and I will see if I can try it.
I have a class D Rogue Pharaoh integrated hybrid. Have had it for about 4 years now and still very much enjoy it's sound. It has bested every class A/B amp I have owned and not by a narrow margin. The only things I have done to this amp is put Mullard NOS tubes in the pre section and added a quality power cord.
OP, yes the Nord’s were good at their price point under £2k. I understand the revised boards have further improved them but feel that they would still fall behind some of the better class D (and A/B) amps that we tested, but to be fair those other amps are more expensive.
With regard to IcePower 1200AS based amps, we haven’t tried at this time. Our audio friend who conducted a comprehensive test of class D may have but they weren’t mentioned as a Best Buy to me.
As mentioned before don’t get overexcited about GaN, there are better existing class D amps. Perhaps things might change in the future?
Coming back to integrated class D amplifiers Nuprime might be worth checking out, although we haven’t had personal experience.
I saw in another discussion you mentioned Nord as being good in the affordable range. I'm wondering if any of these tests you are talking about included IcePower 1200AS based amps as well as the Hypex stuff?
Any class D integrateds out there around the same price as the Parasound HINT that compare favorably with it? Are the Wyred 4 Sound units on that level? I've not heard their gear yet but I hear good things. I would put the Primare I25 on that level.
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