@knock1 @coralkong HIT DAWGS HOLLER!
WHY IS THERE SO MUCH HATE FOR THE HIGH END GEAR ON AUDIO GEAR?
It seems like when I see comments on high end gear there is a lot of negativity. I have been an audiophile for the last 20 years. Honestly, if you know how to choose gear and match gear a lot of the high end gear is just better. When it comes to price people can charge what they want for what they create. If you don’t want it. Don’t pay for it. Look if you are blessed to afford the best bear and you can get it. It can be very sonically pleasing. Then do it. Now if you are also smart and knowledgeable you can get high end sound at mid-fi prices then do it. It’s the beauty of our our hobby. To build a system that competes with the better more expensive sounding systems out there. THOUGHTS?
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“ It’s expensive so it must be snake oil. We are gullible They don’t have experience with high end low noise gear. They are smarter than us and they are gonna show us what we did and are doing wrong. They comment on how and why and the way we spend our Money. They should tell companies what to charge” Everything above that you attribute to me is complete fabrication on your part. where did I mention anything about the prices of equipment or tell anyone how much they should spend or tell any company how much they should charge? What do you know of my personal experience with any gear? Where did I call anyone gullible? Where did I say anything about being smarter than anyone? Why are you just making the crap up about me? I’ve called you out on this a few times now. |
@knock1 @coralkong scottwheel seems like he is the kind of guy on Audiogon that I talk about in this post. Hellbent on telling us 1. We can’t hear 2. It’s expensive so it must be snake oil. 3. We don’t know better so we must be told our faults. 4. We are gullable. 5. Double blind tests will prove us wrong. 6. They don’t have experience with high end low noise gear. 7. They are smarter than us and they are gonna show us what we did and are doing wrong. 8. They comment on how and why and the way we spend our Money. 9. They should tell companies what to charge. 10. They should tell people what to pay. THEY DO ALL OF THESE THINGS WITHOUT HEARING YOUR GEAR. YOUR GEAR IN YOUR ENVIRONMENT OR HEARING ANY GEAR CABLES ETC. THAT THEY ARE COMMENTING ON! |
“@scottwheel , if you truly want to learn something, perhaps you should stop trying to be the smartest guy in the room and listen to what others are telling you.” Im listening. You were saying something about “no going back.” Can you elaborate? You also said some day I will probably learn? What is it you think someday I will probably learn? |
I think the stance of @scottwheel is perfect answer to the subject of this tread. Shoving his opinion on everybody else by the way of disdain, belittling and virtual hate toward anybody disagreeing with his view how the hobby of high end gear HAS to be pursued. His way is the RIGHT way and anybody thinking otherwise is delusional moron. |
@scottwheel , if you truly want to learn something, perhaps you should stop trying to be the smartest guy in the room and listen to what others are telling you. Have a nice day.
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“Once you know better (and obviously a few people here certainly DO know better), you can't go back....” Know better? Please elaborate. I can’t go back? Could you be more specific? Can’t go back from what to what? ”someday you'll probably learn.” Always looking to learn. What specifically do you think I will someday learn? These are honest questions. No hostility. Just trying to get a clear understanding of what you are telling me. |
I just love it when someone tells me what I can and cannot hear in my system. @scottwheel , give it a rest, eh? Someday you'll look back on this and realize how foolish you sound. Don't like expensive cables? Don't buy any. Want to hang with the Pink Panther crowd? By all means, go for it. Want to hang out with your buddies and talk about how smart you are, and how everyone else who disagrees with you is retarded? Not my cup of tea, but you do you. But give it a rest already. Once you know better (and obviously a few people here certainly DO know better), you can't go back....someday you'll probably learn. But your pseudo-intellectual high-road tactics are annoying, to say the least. Your "lather, rinse, repeat" regurgitated ignorance is old at this point. Let it go.
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Really? Go and listen to Darko's interview with Paul Barton and then get back to me. Until then, stop grasping at straws to save face. All the best, |
@nonoise yes sir. Perfect caption. I love the music the way it takes the stress away. I’m old school. I watch my language. I may goof around but I’m careful when I speak to men. You just don’t say certain things. Old school. I like positivity. I’m not going to comment for a while hoping it becomes more civil. Take care. |
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@calvinj I couldn't agree more. Back in the day it was civil discourse and not like it is now. Sign of the time I'd say. Some have to impose themselves, be an influencer, and succeed at any cost. It's why I've dialed back my posting here. Way too much negative waves. All the best, |
@nonoise some if the responses and repeated responses pushing opinions on people is what this has devolved to. I remember 12 years ago when it wasn’t like this. Some people get so frustrated that you will never agree with them it gets personal. Wow. |
@scottwheel im done . This is turning into too much negative energy. Look I enjoy the hobby. I enjoy the music. I’m not on here for the same reason you are. I wish you nothing but the best. Enjoy your system. Not gonna argue with you anymore. Take care best wishes. |
My god, the lengths you go to to subvert the subject. In the properly done test, being blind, the participants had to listen over time and develop an opinion whereas the other test was just a means to deceive. You're way over your head on this one. All the best,
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@coralkong now I remember why I left Audiogon in the first place. One guy pushing his opinion on the rest on repeat! |
“The protocols were completely different.” No. they were nearly identical. ”One did nothing but try to elicit unfavorable results, rejoicing in his deception (he never changed a thing),” and here is where you show us it’s about ego not knowledge. When one has an ego based emotional investment then one sees results as favorable or unfavorable. In both cases the results simply were informative. The protocols were IN FACT exactly as you say for BOTH tests. In the Toole Olive test THEY NEVER CHANGED A THING. You should get your facts right before talking about head injuries incurred by others. |
“Nothing is accomplished by lying to a group of listeners in a double blind. The fact the listeners, presumably, heard differences proves nothing other than the human tendency to believe what others (audio professionals) tell them. I hope no one is actually stating that the results from such a test are worthwhile.”
I think that was the point. Human tendency to form opinions on sound quality that are not actually based on sound. I guess audiophiles can either learn from it or get angry at it. Given the rampant lying by manufacturers of so many products it seems to be very much on point |
“exactly. @scottwheel is hell bent on telling folks that they should trust their own ears!” I am an advocate of judging sound quality by ear. But just by ear. ”WHAT SENSE DOES THAT MAKE?” maybe it’s just me. I think it makes perfect sense. |
Nothing is accomplished by lying to a group of listeners in a double blind. The fact the listeners, presumably, heard differences proves nothing other than the human tendency to believe what others (audio professionals) tell them. I hope no one is actually stating that the results from such a test are worthwhile. |
Looks like you're the kind of fellow who reads what he wants to instead of what's stated. The protocols were completely different. One did nothing but try to elicit unfavorable results, rejoicing in his deception (he never changed a thing), the other, earnestly tried to discern the preferences of the test subjects so they could learn from it and know how to proceed to build a product all can enjoy. You think in funny ways. All the best, |
“No need to. But since you seem to have selective memory, go up this page to what andrewdourin said @ 2:27pm. That is what I was comparing it to. That, and you sure like to use the dick a lot in all manner of variations. Grow up some, lad.”
if nothing else you are predictable. I called this answer out before you posted it. There was no difference between the alleged parlor trick and what Toole and Olive did. Keep on trying to make it about me. You clearly can’t make it about testing protocols |
“I will add that anyone participating in a DBT typically has a dog in this fight. They either want or dont want to hear a difference. The results can be tainted accordingly. The objectivist have created just as viable a market by taking a vocal position as have the subjectivists.” whenever possible I do my own auditions and comparisons blind. I do have a dog in the fight, I want results that are the least tainted that I can get. |
@mahler123 exactly. @scottwheel is hell bent on telling folks that they should trust their own ears! WHAT SENSE DOES THAT MAKE? |
@scottwheel The only one being a dickhead here is you, my friend. Your not knowing Barton was part of the original tests was born out by you when you said:
Not together, not with them, but a different test that was done the same way.
No need to. But since you seem to have selective memory, go up this page to what andrewdourin said @ 2:27pm. That is what I was comparing it to. That, and you sure like to use the dick a lot in all manner of variations. Grow up some, lad. All the best,
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Exactly and the objectivist as the subjectivist are focussing on the GEAR piece, with their taste for the subjectivist and with electrical measures of the specs as the main ground of sound qualities ; the two sides ignore psycho-acoustics and hearing theories and deep mystery ... This is why the two groups are deluded in their own opposite way , deluded by their "tastes" for the gear or deluded by the measured electrical specs ...... At least the subjectivist trust their ears for the better or the worst but the ears which must be trained by acoustics is the only ground for audio experience ...Not the electrical tool so useful it is ...
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I thought double blind was a dead issue. No one, regardless of which side of this fence they occupy, can assert that the knowledge of the test does not alter the very act of listening. One of the few things that J. Atkinson has said with which I agree. If you hear a difference this difference exists. If you dont it doesnt. I dont try to convince anyone of anything and remain secure in my own experiences. By the way, setting up a quasi-viable double blind test is not a simple undertaking. |
scottwheel are you secure in your shoes? If yes why trying to convince others people who trust their ears rightfully or wrongfully ? My self i know with my ears that the cables i tried made a small difference ... Perhaps some can make a bigger difference ... I dont know and i am not interested by cables , especially costlier one, not because they will not affect my S.Q. but because for me it is minor ... Why in the hell are you so obstinate to negate other people ears experience, even if they are deluded ? I believe them myself because cables make a difference but a very small one compared to electrical, mechanical and acoustical working controls ... Is you mission in life is transmission of the double blind test scripture ?😇 Why not explaining to people instead of asking for blindtest what is the BACCH filters and why it matter more than cable or amplifier upgrade? this is way more important... 😊
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“scottwheel 20k. Lol. Anyway. You are not interested in hearing differences. You wanna win arguments. lol. Whatever man.” you didn’t even bother to make excuses. But you did fall back on the same B.S. and just make crap up about me to fit your fantasy. I’m quite interested in knowing what makes a difference. That reality doesn’t fit your narrative so you literally have to make crap up like that. If the cables I use are in any way coloring the sound I am very interested in knowing about it. And if anyone can demonstrate it with reliable, repeatable evidence I definitely want to see it. |
@scottwheel 20k. Lol. Anyway. You are not interested in hearing differences. You wanna win arguments. lol. Whatever man. Look like most on this forum. We see guys like you on repeat. Its ok. It’s not about cables that I represent. It’s more than just our cables. It’s many cables will give you a different sound. But I don’t have to prove anything to you. I have heard the differences myself. In my my system and other well put together systems. Take care. |
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“Did you hit your head recently?” Are you this much of a dick in person or only online? ”The procedure I mentioned was done in an appropriate way whereas the one I addressed was not.”
can you cite the difference? My prediction is you dodge that question because there was no difference and you fire back with more dickish insults. “that, and Barton was part of the team you mentioned, which may explain your misunderstanding.”
There was no misunderstanding. Feel free to show me otherwise. Not holding my breath |
@knock1 been on Audiogon long enough to know you can win arguments with I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I WAS A PERSON! It’s all good. I just don’t care to engage with folks that don’t hear the difference that is clearly there. lol. |
@calvinj It seems that you were given the ultimatum, "I’ll move on when you drop the cliche excuses and ad hominem arguments", to get @scottwheel of your and 99% of this tread participants backs 😁. And I thought it could not get more entertaining. |
rational thinkers , scientists and logicians know that design of experiments is difficult at best with large groups of subjects…. science is messy and unsettled… Barton who i admire certainty voiced some frustration ( with the D in DOE )…. For example, i would never setup a group test with a large panel radiator… even the 100% measure crowd should be able to figure out WHY… and anyone who has owned panels will know why as well. Of course a point source is better but still flawed because a wide “ sweet spot” is lossy… Go ahead, use math… ignore the blowhard know it all…. focus instead on those actually seeking to improve the complex ear / brain DOE |
Did you hit your head recently? The procedure I mentioned was done in an appropriate way whereas the one I addressed was not. That, and Barton was part of the team you mentioned, which may explain your misunderstanding. All the best, |
Anybody knowing how to design a room know that seeing the room as we want it done so beautiful it is ,will not improve acoustic...😊 I am not in a contest where the look of a beautiful piece of gear can influence the impression some people ask me to write in front of a veil masking the gear ... I just returned a piece of gear supposed to be better costlier and more beautiful than my vintage not so beautiful amplifier... i paid it the same price than all my system and i loose 300 bucks returning it ... I returned the upgrade because all acoustic factors were worst save the electrical noise floor which was better with a tremendous power supply ( synergy problem probably ) Did i needed a double blind test to mask the more advanced new technology piece and the more beautiful and the costlier one or the opposite ? No ...😊 I was biased in favor of this upgrade though ...I decided listening few minutes for my vintage piece ... I trusted my ears ... What has a meaning statistically as a useful tool is preposterous when applied for one person system optimization especially when this optimization process is incremental in a very well known specific environment ...I used informal blind test for sure in my system optimization as a tool not as a debunking practice circus ... You think like an ideologue who sell a salad with a hidden goal ... Throwing a gauntlet to all people here with a statistical tool ( blind test) which you used as a debunking tool is propaganda ... James Randi acted the same to prove that no " miracles" exist... The poor dude never looked too hard...there is even books written about hundred miracles right now no science can explain ... Nothing is more easy than to exhibit "miracles" around the world... Some are not provable but many are proved even by science ...James Randi at least was a showman not only an ideologist ... The same materialism and transhumanist today debunk the "existence of free will " ... Without even realizing the complete contradiction implied by the free will intention of doing such debunking of the free will existence ... Sam Harris did not know better , he conflate free will thinking with free choices and no choice ... What a deep thinker indeed ...😊 Some are more gullible than me ...
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“@scottwheel let it go. Time to move on. The rest of us are willing to trust our own ears and not yours move on” Is it your ears you trust or your eyes? I’ll move on when you drop the cliche excuses and ad hominem arguments. Keep doing it and I’ll keep calling you on it. |
@scottwheel let it go. Time to move on. The rest of us are willing to trust our own ears and not yours move on |
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@calvinj + Infinity |
“@scottwheel no one is piling on you. You just want to push how you feel on those who will not agree with you. Agree to disagree and move on.” where did I say anyone was piling on me? What happens if I don’t agree to disagree? 😎 but please don’t try to tell me what *I* want. It’s obnoxious. You want to challenge the merits of my position great. Do so using facts and logic. But ascribing fake motives to me is a bit of a dick move. |
@scottwheel no one is piling on you. You just want to push how you feel on those who will not agree with you. Agree to disagree and move on. |