Why is Oppo stopping products.

Check the older threads for all the speculation.
On an aside, I signed up for notification for the next, and last batch of OPPO 203s to arrive, and when the email came, I waited until the next day to buy one and they were sold out.
Oh well.

All the best,
Nonoise

Staying in business always was, and always will be the first rule of business.

Oppo cannot continue hemorrhaging money making high-end audio disc players players, DAC, etc.  Factories like theirs are set up for commodity production.  The minuscule HEA market sits on the opposite side of that

Here's an article that kind of sums it up: Universal Disk Players.

Ok good read guys! Thanks!

owned by Gibson/ going thru  bankrupcy

jerrygarcia"owned by Gibson/ going thru bankrupcy"

You should get you're facts straight Oppo has nothing at all to do with Gibson Guitar in any way and never did have anything to do with them you are just speculating from a little world of fantasy and confusion.

@nonoise Thank you for providing the article!

"While certainly not privy to the meetings at Oppo, after a multi-decade career in technology I can well imagine how it went down. On the conference room screen the PowerPoint slide shows a graph with time as its horizontal axis and $/Renminbi on the vertical. One data line is labeled 'Development and Support Costs' and is trending sharply up as complexity on top of complexity is heaped onto the platforms. A second data line is labeled 'Annual Player Sales'; alas it trends down over time.

Once those curves cross no amount of passion to build exquisite players will save the day."

Perfectly summed up by the author

I think JG has oppo confused with Teac / Esoteric where Gibson owns a major stake - they bought it in 2013 - I believe it’s a 52% stake.

good Listening

Peter

Good point @elizabeth as it may well be a combination of the two with the article's point being the main one (since this was decided some time ago) and yours a contributing factor. Anyone over there can simply buy up and take over the very same product and continue making them under a different name.

The more astute here will ferret out who's making them next.

All the best,
Nonoise

@nonoise 
i Second the thanks for that article.
I bought a 203 the day Oppo made their announcement and moved my 105 from my two channel system to my HT, where it replaced multiple machines.

     I was surprised and disappointed by the Oppo news.  I was thinking of updating my 65" Panasonic 1080p plasma to an LG 65" OLED model since the price has dropped to below $1,500 at an online retailer (TVSuperstore.com I think).  
     I was planning on updating my current Oppo 105 to the $1,400 4K Oppo 205 at the same time but noticed many retailers were low or out of stock on the 205.  I just thought I'd need to wait for resupplies, not realizing the shortage was a precursor of Oppo dropping out of the market and ceasing production. However, nonoise's linked article on 'Universal Disk Players' explaining Oppo's likely reasoning for ceasing production makes a lot of sense to me. 
     You never know, Oppo may decide to participate again in the market with a player based on future technological advancements that cannot currently be predicted.  I'd likely not hesitate to buy one based on my experiences with the Oppo 105 and their well deserved brand reputation for excellence.   
     I've become a big fan of Oppo since buying the 105 a few years ago.  I have taken advantage of many of the 105's varied and outstanding capabilities: Bluray/SACD/CD/DVD-A player, DAC, streaming music and hi-res computer audio player, high-quality preamp, Netflix streamer/player and as a 5.1 surround sound processor. 
       
     Oppo's decision has actually forced me to take a step back and access my current combination 2-ch audio and ht system.  I realized I'm very pleased with the performance levels of both for at least several more years.  My plasma and 105, although only providing 1080p resolution,  are in like-new condition and are functioning flawlessly for my current needs. 
     Just like most of us, however, I'm not immune from the lure of the latest technology or just change itself and obtaining something new that can be enjoyed daily. 
     I know OLED is very good and 4K is superior to 1080p but I'm less sure the difference will be clearly visible to me from my viewing position about 12-14 feet away. Now, the HDR10  and Dolby Vision probably are clearly improvements. 
     Perhaps I'm just getting older and wiser; I believe I'm getting wiser but I'm absolutely certain I'm getting older.  So, I'm going to rationalize and choose to believe that Oppo has done me a favor by no longer offering the 205.  I'll try and resist the silly upgrade urges for now and just await more meaningful upgrade options to come as technology marches forward. 

Tim 

I moved from a Panasonic Plasma (last production model) to an LG OLED.  Let me assure you, you will notice a difference.  I thought the Blacks on the Plasma were good.  The blacks on the OLED are so inky good, they put a LED on it to let you know when the set is off!

Hi prpixel,

     I bought my last generation Panasonic VT60 series plasma knowing they were ceasing production of plasmas due to the costs of 4K upgrades likely pricing any of their prospective new model 4K hdtvs out of the market.  It still puts a smile on my face every time I turn it on.
      I've viewed the LG 65" B7 4K OLED at a local A/V shop and completely agree with you about the inky blacks that, along with the new HDR10 and Dolby vision for more vivid colors, produces excellent contrast for a truly stunning picture quality; undoubtedly the best picture I've ever seen.
     I know the LG OLD would put a smile on my face every day, too, especially at $1,350.  Now you've done it, made me reconsider my decision and got me thinking of moving the Panasonic to my bedroom.  Cut it out!
     The only thing holding me back now is the issues caused by pairing the 4K LG with my 1080p Oppo 105.  I'd need to find a reasonably priced 205 since I need the hi-res DAC, 5.1 surround processing and 4K content playback the Oppo provides.
     The Oppo's become such an integral part of my AV system that I now can't envision doing without one and using a 'standard' 4K player.

You've got me waffling,
  Tim
      

Its sad, I was hoping to buy a new OPPO and put my 103 in another room.....

Seems to me, there has to be other options other than Oppo. 

I am not the expert here, but my impression of my 205 is that it's REALLY good for the money, but I'm not sure it's the best at anything. 

Theta Prime II sounds at least as good for 2 ch, but it doesn't do more than that. Tells me that there should be better surround processers out there. 

i did limited research when I bought it, but some of what I read, the cheaper Sony's are supposed to have good picture. 

So I don't know...I am sure there are many that have more informed opinions than mine. 

Seems to me, the Oppo was great for the money, but the decision to end business in that area is more a loss for Oppo than for the consumer as a whole. It won't be long until someone else steps in to fill the gap. Possible the product(s) are available now, just not well known.

The only other company making a "high end" 4K player is Cambridge Audio. 

Nobody else, except us here, are buying Disc anymore.  Best Buy has announced that they are no longer going to sell CD's anymore and are reducing the shelf space for DVD\Blu-ray sales.  I was in BB this morning and they had no 4K players on display and they had a normal Blu-ray player hooked up to the 4k Sony projector in Magnolia.  

At the beginning of 2017, Netflix had over 93 Million subscribers, but only 4.1 Million rent physical discs; that less than 5%!  I myself am doing about 50% of my media viewing through streaming and I own a DVR.  The Networks are forcing us to do this because they can cut out the Middleman.  And, if they don't let me watch it at my own convenience, screw them, I'll consume my media elsewhere.  

I own 2 Oppo Players and I'm very satisfied with them.  I rent five movies/month from Netflix and two 4K movies/month from 3DBlurayrental.  I stream about the same amount from Netflix/Amazon/HBO/Comcast etc.  I subscribe to about the same amount of Shows online as I record on my DVR.  

I used to purchase about 10 CD's/month.  Now I purchase about 2-3 physical discs and download about 3-4 a month.  It's more convenient to download them and I can get a lot of stuff in 24/96 or 24/192 FLAC.

Remember, we are a very small club here and we're shrinking every day.  The next time you start to forget that, look around and ask yourself "How many people are listening to music on their phone and how many have an Astell & Kern player in their Pocket?"  Ask yourself "How many people are using generic Apple earbuds or 'High End' IEMS?"

Pretty soon, we will be streaming ourselves and have no need for personal interaction. 

lol.

Hello prpixel,

     Remember what Groucho Marx said about small clubs?
 'I don't want to be a part of any club that would have me as a member.'

     You made a lot of good points in your last post and I agree we're all part of a small club that is likely dwindling.  
     We're certainly in the midst of a transitional period currently; away from physical media and toward streaming and downloads.  I realized this a few yrs ago and invested in a computer audio system (laptop running JRiver Media Center, Synology NAS with a 2 TB hard drive, Seagate 2 TB backup hard drive and the Oppo 105 as the DAC and digital player,).  My entire CD collection has been ripped to the NAS and playback is controlled by my laptop.  Definite progress since it's like having a high quality digital jukebox in your home.

     I've also begun downloading several hi-res 24 bit/96 khz music as  WAV and FLAC files.  I'm clearly able to hear the improvement in noise levels, dynamic range, detail levels and the resultant more realistic sound stage illusion that 24/96 provides over 16bit/44khz CDs. 
      However, I've found that the key to excellent hi-res music file performance is the files history   Music files recorded direct to 24/96 digital, as opposed to simple digital copies to 24/96 of the original analog master tapes, sound significantly  better to me on my system. I find improvements in sound performance of 24/96 copies of analog masters, when compared to CD copies of the same content, to be much less noticeable.
     I intentionally want to keep my post short because I think we may be veering off topic a bit and I don't want  the OP to think we're hi-jacking his thread on subs. Anyone interested in continuing off-topic discussions is probably best served by starting a separate new thread on the topic of their choice.

Thanks,
  Tim

Because their stupid phone business makes 1.000 times as much money .

Because the bottom line rules and profit is everything, even in Communist China!

I'm going to disagree with the "Phone company whats to make a huge profit, so people buy them" mentality and say it's because people want convenience.  Consuming music on a phone is incredible easy whether it be through iTunes of Google Play.  BTW, all companies want to make a profit.  That's how they stay in business and that's how employees continue to get paid.

I paid $320 for my LG V20+ SK Edition unlocked NIB about a year ago.  I paid $400 for for my wife's LG+ V30 a few months ago.  I pay $9/month for my plan and $3.40/month for my wife's plan (Talk & Text, no Data).  Some people have to have the latest and greatest phone at pay full price, or more, on the day it's released.  If you overpaid for your phone, well that's on you.  And, if you're paying Hundreds for a Cell Plan, maybe it's time to look around for something more economical.  

I'm sure that there's a lot more profit in my "audiophile" EIM's then in the Phone or Plan.  I have JH Audio, Campfire Audio and Periodic Audio IEM's that were all bought direct.  So, that would mean that there probably at least a 40-50 Point line.  At the 40 Point mark, there's more profit in my JH audio IEM's then the cost of both Phones.  There might be enough to also go out for a nice Dinner.  Remember, Audiophile companies tend to be niche, sell less product, and have higher prices.

Let's get back to the topic of this thread.  After seeing the announcements for Oppo, I called them to get the reason for their exit.  Quite simply, they found that manufacturer Blu-ray Players as an unsustainable model.    They sell less Players every year, while cost continue to rise.  So, they decided to take what money they had left and put it toward supporting the product that they had already sold; the Honorable thing.  The other products they sold were just a small part of their revenue stream.  BTW, they were surprised about the Sonica, but it was just too late.  We can debate this over and over, but every year less and less people buy physical media.  Every year there are less and less "High-End" CD, SACD and Blu-ray players and transports.  Right now all the buzz is about Computer Audio and Streaming.

Now, I have to take my leave.  My Custom Horse drawn Coach Builder just called and he has some design considerations to discuss.  Yes, I found the last Builder of Custom Coaches and you can't have his Telegraph number.

" I intentionally want to keep my post short because I think we may be veering off topic a bit and I don't want the OP to think we're hi-jacking his thread on subs. Anyone interested in continuing off-topic discussions is probably best served by starting a separate new thread on the topic of their choice."

     My mistake, I thought I was responding on another thread.
     Yes, I feel like an idiot and am more than a bit embarrassed.
     My only excuse is I have a brain the size of a small walnut.
Please disregard,
  Tim

Still not sure I believe all the explanations. 

In TYPICAL business model, I would expect to make profits as long as you can until it's no longer profitable, as opposed to get a jump on it. "In the future, we won't make profits so we are stopping now"..?? Does anyone buy that? 

Makes less sense to me, because I got the impression the were selling everything they made. 

Nope. I think there is more to the story. Maybe it's a stupid simple as the brother-in-law got a divorce, maybe got in trouble with taxes or something...maybe they have so much money they don't care. Maybe they got a new owner, or maybe current owner wanted to buy a baseball team....

Basement,

Do you understand how much it cost to do a production run?  They have to order hundreds if not thousand(s) of the units from their supply.  Up until they made the announcement of their closing, they were not selling everything they made.  The only product that was hard to get was the Sonica DAC.  Dealers and Oppo were sitting on a lot of Disc Players.  The announcement caused a run on the 205's which sold out in about 10 days.  I'm going to guestimate that there where about 200+ 205's.  I know that about 30-50 were sold through Best Buy/Magnolia.

The cheaper 203's took about a month to sell out.  I'm assuming that there were more 203's available.  Sonica WiFi speakers are still available.  

The announcement motivated a lot of people that were sitting on the fence to finally make a purchase.

Oppo was loosing money over the last few years.  They were not selling enough product to cover their overhead (salaries, rent/mortgage, insurance, utilities, etc).

Ask yourself how many people do you know that own a 4k Blu-ray Player?  

Hey, if you don't believe what you read here, then call Oppo.  I've actually spoken to them twice in the last month; they've always been upfront and forthright.  

BTW - On google maps you can actually see the Oppo Facility.  Also, they are still taking reservations for 203's and 205's for a potential final run.  

the day of the disc is over.  more people downloading media or using streaming services.  Oppo could have stayed in the game by producing a excellent streamer/DAC that could interface with existing NAS storage devices, but would offer the same excellent video and audio playback and support that Oppo that has been Oppo's trademark.

@elizabeth   +1
Net neutrality rules will formally expire on Monday allowing internet providers free reign to block any traffic content, throttle internet speeds against their competitors content, and accept money for favored treatment.  With prices for streaming video and music surely to rise if new rules are not repelled,  I do not see the streaming landscape as the stable platform that some of you are making it out to be.

" In TYPICAL business model, I would expect to make profits as long as you can until it's no longer profitable, as opposed to get a jump on it. "In the future, we won't make profits so we are stopping now"..?? Does anyone buy that? "

Hello basement,

    I buy it and agree with prpixel and jag.
    For a business, there are numerous factors, and permutations of factors, that need to be considered prior to making a decision as critical as ceasing production and exiting the market.  
     It's never as simple as just making profits as long as you can until it's no longer profitable.  A  well run business is more concerned with past, current and future projections of sales, costs and profit margins.  The  current and projected profit margin (sales price less costs usually measured as a % of sales price) and sales volume are the determining factors when deciding whether they are going to continue making a specific product, not just whether they are going to make a profit.  
     A large company like Oppo needs to constantly evaluate their return on investments  to ensure they're allocating their assets wisely, optimizing profits and taking advantage of opportunities that may exist in manufacturing alternative products.  Satisfying the wants or needs of a relatively small niche market is of much lesser import.
    It's Capitalism at work but it does create a vacuum in the market that may be filled by another company (Cambridge?) that views is as an opportunity if the numbers make sense..  
Tim    

@prpixel 

Actually, it appears that they are no longer taking names for the 203 or 205 since they no longer offer links to either on their website. Initially, they said June, and later August for an additional run of the 205. Being optimistic, I'd like to be believe that those of us who signed-up early might still see a unit in June from the first additional production run. You said you spoke with them twice in the last month, what did they tell you?

@audiostick, OPPO website has a working registration for 203/205 listed under product support.

Asians think in terms of decades, Americans about 4-5 months tops .

Would that be Asians from the Indian subcontinent? Asian-Americans? Khmer? Thai? Hmong? Han Chinese?  

Most readers know (and you probably already know) how ridiculous your generalization is. 

" Asians think in terms of decades, Americans about 4-5 months tops."

     I think a more accurate statement is that Chinese and Russian communist governments tend to think in terms of 5 and 10 year plans and that capitalists tend to think in terms of as many years as possible while still having faith in the reliability of their projection models.

Tim

The timing is VERY suspicious.... just weeks into the "trade war" and Oppo dumps its California design team into the Pacific...... both my Oppo players have labeled on the back "Oppp Digital, California, USA".... but of course somewhere else it says made in China.  It seems to me they are cutting some US ties. 

Jeffrey,

Yes, if ISP’s start throttling/blocking competitors the whole streaming thing could go belly up. Then we would have a few years of market disruption before a new way of listening/purchasing music/movies would evolve. Even radio would be effected by this. We’ve become so depending on the internet it’s scary to think of it going away. Could you imagine having to make the decision between listening to the latest Favorite Musician tune or paying your Visa bill? Oh god, we would have to go back to writing and mailing checks and letters. No, stop, the horror! Excuse me, I need to get a frosty beverage.

I don’t like to speculate or assume anything, so when I see something I don’t understand, I pickup the phone or fire off an email.

Audiostick,

When I spoke to them, they said they had enough money in the bank to do another production run of players. Then, because disc players are moving so slow, they would have to wait a year or two or more to sell them. During that time, they would have to hope enough players sold each month to to make expenses. Or they could take that money, downsize the operation, and keep their current customers happy, and their remaining employees paid, for the next three years.

To be honest, when the Oppo 4K players were announced, I called up my dealer and said "I’m excited, put me on the list for one." And then, when they started to ship, I found out that there were no streaming apps. I was using some of those apps in my current player, and was disappointed about that. I spoke briefly with my Oppo dealer about this. And then, I drug my feet for about 6 months before I actually purchased the player. I wonder if I’m just a little responsible for this mess.

I’m sad to see Oppo close it’s doors. Over the years I’ve seen many audio companies that I liked come and go. I’ve spoke on the phone with many of them, met them at shows and dealers, and made some friends. When I look at what’s left of High End Audio, I just want to cry. Life move’s on, things change, learn to deal with it.

Mirolab,

You're hearing about it after the Trade War started.  The decision was made months ago.  When I purchased my Unit about 6 months ago, my Dealer actually hinted at it.  I had called to purchase a Subwoofer, and he said "If you're still on the fence about the Oppo, you better make your decision soon while I can still get product."  I ordered the Oppo later that day.

I don't disagree with my dissenters on business models, but I disagree with the facts. 

I accept the possibility I could be wrong, but it does seem to me the were selling before the announcement. Now, if they WERE sitting on the shelves and dealers had too many, then my whole argument goes out the window. 

Further, just my opinion mind you, they were an easy sell. As far as I know, they were they only high end(ish) video player on the market, priced right between consumer disposables and high end (accessible to  anyone) and really easy to choose because you can plug them in any way, with any number of better components. 

Didn't look like a company on the way out, or in trouble in any way. 

Regarding "behind the scenes", trade war stuff and such, maybe? Stuff that we learn about usually exist BEFORE we learn about it. 

Basement,

Call Oppo.  

BTW - Just got off the phone with my Oppo Dealer.  He told me he was selling about 1 Unit/month.  Then Oppo made the announcement and he couldn't get enough of them.  

Also, I've heard through the grapevine that the Cambridge Audio CXUHD was using the same MediaTek platform/parts as the Oppo 203.  The CXUHD does not have analog outputs.  If you look at the two players, they look very similar.  I have not verified this with CA.

Sony has the UDB-X1000ES for $699 which is based on the Sony UDP-x800 at $299 retail.

Hi basement,

     I'm not certain how well the Oppo 205 was selling prior to the announcement but supplies seemed to be low, with the price rising substantially for still available units, almost immediately after the announcement.  No surprise there but I don't think Oppo was overly concerned about not selling all their remaining units.
     I agree with you that the top Oppo models have been excellent performers for years and occupy a unique segment in the blu-ray player market; high-end audio and video performance, playback of almost any silver disc type, excellent dacs, very good surround processing of music and ht, 4k video upscaling and streamer/player for all digital sources and files from CD 16/44 to DSD.  A hi-end jack of all trades for an affordable original price of $1,400.  
     I also agree that they don't appear to be a company on the way out.  I think what we're witnessing is a very competent company, that has made a decision for their unknown specific reasons to exit the market at the top of their game, exiting the market in a very competent manner.  No excessive remaining unsold inventory and one planned final production run to satisfy remaining demand and maximize profits.
     I too hate to see them go but I did signup fairly early on their website for notification once the final production run of 205s are available for purchase. 
     I'd like to be more assured I'll be able to buy one of these final 205s so I'm going to inquire if prepayment to reserve one is an available option.
     I'm also a bit concerned about whether the 205 will function just as well as my 105 has while just adding 4K video playback.  But I'm going to start a new thread asking for assistance on this today. Any assistance from those on this thread that already own, or are knowledgeable about, the 205 will be definitely welcomed and appreciated.

Thanks
Tim 

@prpixel , IMO, I  believe OPPO dropped streaming apps on 203/205 players because getting firmware updates into the apps themselves was technically challenging and or had to many copyright laws. When using a Roku 4 with 103, I found the Netflix/Pandora apps on OPPO to be older versions, and Roku 4 performed better.

Sad to see them go, I purchased my first product from them, a UDP-203, and I’ve been very happy with it.  I bought mine as soon as it was released based on their reputation.  

On the bright side the Panasonic players have been reviewed as being as good as the Oppos when it comes to video quality.  As far as audio goes, as long as it has HDMI one should be as good as any other and you just rely on your AVR to handle the DAC stuff.  

For those that were using them in 2-channel systems there may not be easy answers for replacements though. 

I’m surprised they shut down the whole audio electronics side though, headphones and DACs are a booming business, and the Oppo headphones were well regarded. 

Jeffery,

I spoke to Oppo about the reasoning for dropping the apps.  First, it was a challenge to try to keep them up to date.  The other issue was the licensing fees.  They didn't think that most people really used the apps all that much and it wasn't worth the hassle and expense.  They actually recommended that I buy a Roku.  I picked up a Roku Premiere+ for streaming duties.  It's OK, but the audio quality is disappointing. Roku does do a good job of supporting the device and keeping things up to date.  

Most TV and Blu-ray manufacturers only support the built in apps for a few years anyway.  After that, you end of purchasing a Roku anyway.  Someone goes out and buys a $10000 TV and three years later you tell them that they have to strap a $100 Roku to it for Netflix and they look at you like you're crazy.  It's either that, it toss your TV and buy a new one.  

@prpixel 

The way I look at it you should get the best device to perform the function that you're looking for it to accomplish.  Let the disc player be the best disc player it can be, and for apps get the best streaming box you can, whether that be a Roku, Apple TV, nVidia Shield, Fire TV, or whatever else your preference is.  Any of the dedicated streaming boxes will give you a much better experience than the built-in apps on a disc player, and all of the major companies offer streaming boxes with 4K HDR support these days.  

A 203 for 4K video plus a 105 for audio and video streaming is good combination. A used 105 + a new 203 cost the same as a new 205.

" A 203 for 4K video plus a 105 for audio and video streaming is good combination. A used 105 + a new 203 cost the same as a new 205."

Hello junzhang,

     Interesting idea that may work well in my system since I already own a 105 and would just need the 203 along with, of course, a 4K hdtv and some additional cabling.
     I'm just confused about how to hook this all up.

     Seriously,
             Could you please explain exactly how I would hook this up?
      Off the top of my head, I think it would require the 203 to have separate video and audio HDMI or digital outputs.  Does the 203 have this capability?
 Thanks,
  Tim

Tutetibiimperes,

Yes, agreed.  The problem with all these little streaming boxes is they don't support any kind of hi-res audio or even CD quality audio.  All these boxes boxes down-sample to DD, DD+ or Dolby Atmos; these are all compressed formats.  They don't even give you the option of 2 channel uncompressed stereo.  As Junzhang10 points out, the 105 supports hi-res audio from some streaming sites/services.  The 103 supported some of those sites/services also.

So the perfect combination:

• A Roku, AppleTV, FireTV for everyday Video streaming
• 4k Blu-ray player for Best Video/Audio quality from physical media
• A dedicated audio streaming device for audio streaming from services and local sources.  Play-Fi and a few others support 24/192.
• Oppo 105 or a computer for those few sites that support hi-res Audio and Video.

I have a 105, 203, Play-Fi and Roku.  Unfortunately, they are not all in the same system.  I so want all these features in one box.  I know it's not really practical and would probably be compromised. 

205 can be used as USB DAC if you hook computer. You should grab a 205 from their last run even if you have a 105.

@prpixel 

The Apple TV can decode CD quality audio (16 bit 44.1khz PCM) (and I believe the nVidia shield will as well if the app support it) and at least the nVidia Shield can 'pass through' lossless surround formats (DTS-MA and Dolby TrueHD) though you need a processor on the other end to decode the signal.  Apple just announced enhancements to the AppleTV 4K this past week including Dolby Atmos support, right now it doesn't seem clear whether that's going to be true uncompressed Atmos or Atmos in a DD+ container though.  

I'd be curious how many people have a dual-use system for both HT and 2-channel music though.  I have my 2-channel rig in a separate room from the HT, and I don't do any music listening in the HT room.  

J,

Thanks, but the 105 is not in the same room room as my computer.