Why Don't More People Love Audio?

To be totally argumentative, Ikea is RTA which is at the other end of the sofa from plug in and play. Also modern luxury cars require fairly detailed instruction before you can safely operate them and you cannot maintain them without dealer assistance.

Onhwy61 - You are not being argumentative but rather setting the record straight. If this, or any discussion, is to be productive and rewarding it needs to be restricted to factual arguments, reliable data, and responsible assertions. When someone veers off course in any of those areas, it is incumbent upon the likes of you to introduce corrections. Thanks for keeping things honest. And Merry Christmas.

I was picking nits. I just thought his examples were really bad. Put five luxury cars in a lineup and unless you're a valet at a boutique hotel you won't be able to start them three of them without being shown how. Setting the heat control on the vibrating rear head rest also is as intuitive as it could be in some models.

Enjoy!

Okay guys, I'm still feeling Christmasy so I won't let you rattle me for the moment ... :-) I'll have another go at explaining my (to me, perfectly valid) examples, down the track ...

So, cheers and Merry Xmas from me,
Frank

Perhaps they never had a mentor like i did as a curious kid in the 60's. It was like magic & still is thankfully...happy holidays 2010

There are several reasons why high end audio is a niche market. One of the main reasons is that the average person simply doesn't know this equipment exists. I have had to educate several of my co-workers on the fact that there really does exist sound quality which is MUCH MUCH MUCH better than mass-market. They are used to hearing the receivers from Wal Mart, Best Buy, and department stores. They don't even know that there exists stores which set all their gear up like how it would be in a house. They don't know anything about Vandersteen, Krell, or Magnepan because they don't see them at the "big box" retailers.

The other problem is the price. People get turned off when they hear about a $3,000 CD player. They would rather spend that money on something else because they read that "bit for bit all CD players sound the same because they are digital" and don't see the reason to spend big money. They also don't see the reason to buy 7 monobloc amplifiers for $7,000 when an Onkyo receiver has 7 channels in a small box. Blame defunct magazines like Stereo Review for emphasizing cheap gear while at the same time mocking the expensive equipment.

The root of this is education and advertising. I'm sure that if high end audio was marketed like diamonds, expensive cars, and wedding dresses were then we'd see Arcam and Jolida as often as we now see Sony and Pioneer. People need to know this stuff exists and they need to know that it is worth the money. Until then high end audio will remain a cottage industry.

They also don't see the reason to buy 7 monobloc amplifiers for $7,000 when an Onkyo receiver has 7 channels in a small box.

When you say it like that, what is the reason?

The "average Joe" walks into a Guitar Center and buys an American Fender Strat for around $1,200. The audiophile spin on this would be to tell the guy that his Strat is just okay and that he really should buy a hand made instrument from some luthier in Oregon for $20,000 and upwards (14 months wait list). You explain that it's a much better guitar and will sound better. Joe Average walks away laughing and he's laughing at you.

And to continue the guitar analogy: if he changes his mind, goes back and orders the custom made instrument it will sound very impressive only when he plays a certain style of music, and only selected pieces within the repetoire of that. The sort of music he enjoyed picking out on his first, cheap guitar will sound very ordinary, even mediocre ...

Frank

Their wives have a fixed budget for them. (no, or few budget to audio) :D

There are alot of great points on this subject. I just spent 30 minutes reading them. Now let me give you my opinion. I grew up with a father that was a musician and I was exposed to all kinds of music as a child. I had my first audio system when I was 15 years old. When I was 18 my father took me to a store that carried high-end audio. From the moment I heard that gear I was hooked. That was 32 years ago and I'm still just as hooked as when I was 18 years old. I think the reason people don't love audio is because they have never been exposed to it. If my father had not exposed me to it 32 years ago I would not be on Audiogon today. I'm not saying everyone that get's exposed to it will get hooked. But there will always be a small percentage that will be and they could possibly keep this hobby going.

I think a lot of it has to do with the degradation of our society. I've been pondering the differences in my own family lately. What I've come up with is, that it is a fact that every preceding generation becomes increasingly unaware or has no clue as to what good sound means to humanity. It "is" in fact a most basic part of who we are. In no other medium, can we expect to get so much pleasure or enjoyment.

it's a matter of priorities.

there are so many things competing for our attention that audio assumes less importance than it did years ago.

Too complicated.

Over-complicate things in order to justify a higher price.

Good question. Maybe, they think high-end systems are too complicated to put together for an occasional listening experience. As I commented in a my own thread similar to this one, I often hear from guests that why do I play it (so) loud. I listen to lot of classic rock, but am not a headbanger. My explanation is/was: to properly pressurize the room to give the sound the appropriate dynamics intended by the musicians and sound engineer. I can state from experience that Scott Joplin's Piano Rags sound better loud than at medium or low level. Also, louder music conveys more emotion and has more evocative power. Well....by that time, I have lost my guests in what they surmise as some kind of elists hobby. Yet, many will not disarage their department store system, or surround sound set-up. Therefore, to avoid the discomfort and embarrassment, I listen alone-- no guests anymore. Possibly sad, but it satisfies me. Today, I listened straight threw Bell and Sebastian's "Dear Catastrophe Waitress". I enjoyed the session, though I was listening to evaluate new room placement of my speakers. At the same time, I was never distracted from the musical brilliance of these young musicians. I did not want or have to explain what I believe makes them musical innovators of the pop tune. And this is another reason why many people do not love audio. They either want to groove to the beat---no problem, or "just like the music" or its presentation, but that is the extent of many people's musical "experience". The evolution of lets say "pop music" is not a consideration for most listeners. The Bell and Sebastian disc, I mentioned, evokes pieces and genres of pop music which I can't put my finger on exactly; there is a bit of early Fleetwood Mack, the Birds, Donovan, Hollies, Beatles in several of their albums, and even a few reworked bars from the Grateful Dead's "Sugar Magnolia" and "Jack Straw from Wichita" Their abilty to synthesize various musical styles and lines is miraculous. Lastly, I think the way audiophiles venerate good sound as the product of good design that is, "science in the service of art", is a highly personal and intellectual pursuit that turns many people off as elist. I know that is a gross misjudgement on their part.

I've asked myself this question a lot and I ask myself because I've lamented the decline of high end shops who
have been faced with selling primarily projectors, screens
and receivers or they die a quick death. I live in a city big enough to support an NBA team, but has been reduced from 6 to 2 true audio stores since the 90s and this theme is being repeated elsewhere. I talked to a dealer the other day about my dream of one day having a shop and he basically told me I'd go broke regardless what I did unless I had a commitment to home theatre.

So to the central question:

I call it the hamburger A effect.

There is a restaurant 100 miles from my home that serves buffalo burgers that are some of the best tasting I've ever had in my life. When I've taken out of towners there, they also echo that it was a transcendent experience, yet the place is in the woods, quite literally.

The fact that not everyone has experienced the place has skewed their view on burger reality in that their reference for a great burger might range from fast food
to a local place of theirs, but unless they've read about, heard about or tasted my reference burger then they are doomed to burger mediocrity.

I bring this bad comparison in because in the 1980s at the age of 16, I was already into audio but my reference was Klipsch, Yamaha etc. A friend of mine bought and sold used gear and we went to a high end shop to pick up a pair of Acoustat 2x2's with the Acoustat servo amps behind them from a Model X being driven by an ARC SP-6 preamp and a very well done up Linn turntable with the moving coil of that day. The freshly traded in dirty Acoustats had a Sheffield labs LP was playing through them and I sat there just taken, mesmerized by how I could close my eyes and almost crawl inside the instruments. It was the first time I heard "texture" in music versus just notes.

Most audiophiles have begun with an experience like that, where subsequent to that, they "chase" that memory or that experience, or another unseen one because they know what is possible after that.

The fundamental difference between an audiophile and what we would refer to as a non audiophile is simply that experience, that moment.

Rich guy with the Pioneer receiver and Cerwin Vegas never had the benefit of that experience. His reference has always been mid-fi.

There are others that simply have a passing interest in
music period and therefore have no use for high end audio
even though they might be aware of it's existence, but
there are a whole other group that WOULD be passionate
about the equipment side if they had ever been exposed
to anything outside a big box store.

Again, it's confused and disappointed me as to why
this is a small community, when music at large is not
but I am encouraged by what I see happening with Analog
today and I am hopeful that as time goes by, the mediocrity
of I-Tunes will bring people full circle by which
they just want something "better" whether they've
experienced it or not....

You will find 1 in a million that cares about AUDIO ENOUGH to CARE about the SOUND of what they have and or are buying. Select audiophiles and or some people actually listen to what they are buying. MOST ALL buy because someone else says its good. Should clean out their ears, oh well.

10 year old thread, wow.
Part of the blame goes to the poor marketing within the retail sector.
Most high end audio shops, (before the internet did a Sherman's March to the sea) treat it as if it's brain surgery and talk down to customers. I know, I owned a shop for 15 years, then traveled the US to stores from NY to Tustin, CA, to Washington State, to Coral Gables, Florida.
Rarely did anyone within these stores exhibit the kind (note I said rarely) of professionalism that would pull a casual hobbyiest into the mainstream.
With the prices of high end gear, the sales staff needs to be very, very professional and excellent communicators, not a haughty, afectatious, superior acting twerps--the description of many I met in my travels.
Ask one hundred people to name a loudspeaker and 99+ will of course say, Bose. The only company founded by a man with two degrees--IN MARKETING.

Good listening,
Larry

Most everyone involved came on board when the ground was fertile and the crops couldn't fail. Now that there is a shrinking market and an inexplicably expanding manufacturing base, times are getting very tight.

If audio had been more welcoming and less elitist, perhaps the customer base might have expanded laterally. Now the only hope of survival seems to require reselling, rebadging, renaming, regurgitating the same stuff to the same people over and over ad infinitum. But the rancidity is becoming difficult to ignore. The excitement is gone. The superlatives have all been overused. The ultra dream stuff is no longer a carrot dangling just out of reach. It now requires a powerful lens to be seen because it is so far out of reach. Big disincentive.

My own theory on the astronomical pricing is this: sales are scarce at every level but if you can sell just a couple of items at twenty times their cost (and there are enough zeroes involved) you can stay in biz and continue to dream about the return of those halcyon days of Levinson and Krell. Heck, when you're not busy you may as well dream.

I'm retired.

How about "audio galleries" where companies loan their equipment? People pay $10-20 and can listen to the "B&W" room or the YG Acoustics room.
There would be no pressure to buy, the entrance fees covers operating expenses, and no overhead like a dealer who has to buy the stuff as it would be on loan.

Hmmm. Audio galleries. People bringing in their favorite music just to hear it the best way possible. A 3-D listening experience, or the best they'll ever hear.
Some would get the bug and want to take the experience home.
Something to think about.

You guys are silly. Even in areas of the country where we enjoy some hobbyist density, there simply are not enough of us to keep this imaginary enterprise running. Ordinary non-audio people who have no interest in this stuff and don't care about specs, tube complements, driver technology or sampling rates are not going to pay admission to this place any more than I would pay to look at guns and camo fashions at Cabelas. Don't care is don't care.

Another point to consider is that the few places in our vast country that have the audiophile numbers to make this enterprise even remotely plausible happen to be the places most likely to have dealers.

Last point, and I hope you can at last grasp this:

You are in fantasyland. You come off like religious zealots who simply cannot imagine that anyone could experience the holy ghost or holy grail or holy sound as you experience it and remain unmoved. Fact is, though, they can. Even though you have discovered the one true short cut to heaven, they still will prefer to watch the TV, surf the net, hunt and fish, refinish furniture, paint the back porch, go bowling, read the wisdom of OchoCinco, collect stamps, sail their boat, plow their fields, etc. This is because we are all different. We all have areas of interest and they can be mutually exclusive. Some people even prefer to make their own music.

We need to get over ourselves. I'm sure there are threads out there wondering how the hell you manage to live a happy life if you don't make your own sauerkraut.

Macrojack - Thank you so much for that post. Gosh, I laughed out loud. Great points made.

Macrojack,
You dont make your own saeurkraut?!!

Sorry to disappoint. I buy Bubbie's sauerkraut. I'm not a DIYer. Most things are best left to those with the tools, the experience and the desire. Talent can be an issue as well. I'm second rate or worse in all of those areas. I don't even solder.

I believe that Macrojack said it all, and with good humor.

Except there are millions of people who enjoy music. Does someone have to understand tubes or driver technology to be qualified to listen to a hi end system? Why would someone have to wear the badge of Audiophile before they are allowed to hear a high end stereo? This isn't about catering to the audiophile. Enough of that already.

As many people have said here, they got into the hobby because they got the chance to listen to true high quality sound. My Canadian friend says American settle. But how can you be interested in something good if you've never been one of the Choosen Few who have been allowed behind those hallowed doors?

Self limiting snobbery sure will explain why more people don't love *hi end* audio, or won't get into it.

Exposure is not the issue. Just because you make something possible does not mean you make it happen. Providing tax breaks to the wealthy will provide jobs we have been told. Thirty years later we have far fewer jobs than when this theory was sold to us. Making it possible (one more time) DOES NOT MAKE IT HAPPEN.

I provided a clear explanation above which made it possible for you to understand that some people just don't get the audio bug no matter how much exposure they"enjoy". These people represent the vast majority of humanity. Many, if not most, of us make sacrifices of time and money to participate in this hobby. Most of us, it could be said, are obsessive about it. Regular old folks like you see walking around and driving their cars and shopping for Reynolds Wrap or a toaster don't give a rosy damn how great a sound system performs. They'l hear it and say it sounds nice or it sounds great or Holy Sh*t, man, that's killer, and they'll still go home and forget about it. They do not have an urge to own and don't care if they never have that experience again.

So --------- repeat after me ----- making something possible does not make it so.

I have tried cigars because I worked with a bunch of guys who loved them and wanted me to love them as well. I was given some expensive smuggled Cuban thing to try and I followed their advice. I went home, sat on the swing in the back yard after dinner, lit it up by myself and puffed away. All the circumstances were ideal and I gave it every chance I could. Yecchhh. I not only didn't love it --- I didn't even like it. Opera went the same way. Golf too. Even though millions of people are as passionate about those things as you are about audio, I didn't care to invest my time, my money, or myself in any of them.
Please pull out of your pompous fantasy and just accept the fact that you are the weirdo -- not the guy on the street.

If you get pleasure from your system, that alone should be enough. There is no need to proselytize. To each his own.

Another thought - when I started selling retail audio in 1975, everyone was a prospect. Owning a stereo was de rigueur at the time and families poured through the door constantly in pursuit of a sound system. They were all exposed equally. Some bought upscale but most went entry level and stayed there until twenty years later when they looked into home theater. Only a small percentage got the bug and began the crusade. Many were called but few were chosen. All were exposed.

To Macrojack:

Well said and absolutely true!!

Thanks for sharing your contrary opinion. I have no interest in changing your mind, but please allow me the opportunity to present something contrary to what you think. Thanks.
How is allowing the everyday man exposure to hi end audio a "pompous fantasy"? You, sir are so full of your own words that you cannot read what was written. Nothing was said about forcing people to be blown away by a stereo. Nothing was said about forcing someone to buy something because *I* like it. And "zealots who simply cannot imagine that anyone could experience the holy ghost or holy grail or holy sound as you experience it and remain unmoved."---- where was this ever written, or implied?
The original point was simply to allow people *who have never heard a hi-end stereo* the opportunity to do so. It is an attempt, however, small and ill conceived, allow more people to love audio. Instead of the negative attitude which seems to almost want people to stay out of the hobby.
Actually with hi-end audio getting smaller and smaller, IMHO, there IS a need to proselytize.
I agree with what you said:
"Only a small percentage got the bug and began the crusade. Many were called but few were chosen. All were exposed."

Except the part about "all were exposed". IMO, the vast majority of people have not. You cannot tell if you like something or not unless you try it.
If you open your mind and eyes to what people has written over and over again on this site, you will read that many here have gotten into the hobby because they had the chance to listen to the hi end stereo. They have said if they did not have this opportunity, they would still be living with their boombox.

Doing anything really well is not easy.

That reality excludes all but the most motivated from doing anything really well.

Still, many are motivated enough to do some things well, whatever it may be, for better or for worse.

Audio is merely a hobby, a trivial pursuit in the big picture of things for most. Doing audio alone well is not enough for most to subsist. There are other things that may provide greater return on investment if done well. Those are the things most will put their energy into. Only a few will need or want to put a lot of though or energy into audio when music can be heard fairly easily and for low cost otherwise.

It is safe to say that most people who have the means to purchase our very expensive toys are aware of that option.

Embedded in the belief that others would choose to be like you if they were only presented with a sampling of what that means, is a rather narcissistic supposition.

I don't believe in god. There may well be such an entity but I have no reason to believe or disbelieve as much. I don't feel that I need to know nor that I could know. Others out there are condemning or pitying me for having blasphemed in such a way. They think that if only I was exposed to the bible, koran, lao tzu, glenn beck or ochocinco, I would recant repent and buy a preamp. Fact is, none of that will happen. And an audio expo on a street corner in Council Bluffs or Ft. Collins won't change much of anything. It is but a fanciful notion. If you don't believe me, try it yourself. If you pull it off, I'll admit I was wrong. But I ain't going to church.

At this point, prehaps someone should define "high End"

One word.....passion! An individual with Passion for good sounding music (depending on how passionate)....will naturally (come within) hunt for the gears and resources to get him or her there....(investment varies with financial status)...IMHO..(just from my personal experience).

More music is being bought now more than ever. Obviously music is important to people. Most of it through things like ITunes. Most of it is played back through headphones on ipods. Since there is a huge volume of people doing this, and lots of young people within this group, it seems to me a certain percentage of them will become interested in better playback. After market headphones are selling well. Websites like headfi are swelling in numbers. A certain percentage of these people will investigate further into audio and that will include higher end two channel setups. These are the seeds planted that is hope for the high end.

Some of us may be forgetting the unemployment and underemployment statistics that young people are facing. Maybe you are unaware of the insidious student loan trap too many of our youth have fallen into. Perhaps it has escaped your attention that wage erosion cripples the prospects for our recent college graduates.

Sit down and do the math. How does it look for kids trying to plant their flag somewhere on $40K per year? Times have changed. For those few who can't help themselves it may be possible to scrape together some of our leavings into a semblance of high end, but most won't even try. Buying a house and/or feeding their kids will crowd audio out of their thinking if, in fact, it ever gains entry.

i think some people are taking the subject "audio" to seriously. it is just a hobby, competing with many other hobbies.

hopefully we define ourselves by our character not by our hobbies.

chill out guys. it's no big deal whether people are or are not audiophiles, or like or do not like music.

the fact that there have been been three hundred + posts is puzzling to me, as my philosophy in life is that of the golden mean.

why is there seemingly so much concern regarding a person's attitude about a hobby ?

such a concern seems like a trivial pursuit to me.

Macrojack, interesting POV's. I agree that, given your situation, why should you believe in God? A thought occurred to me recently though that you HAVE to being following SOMETHING. So if you aren't following God, then you are following something else. I wonder what it is?

"For those few who can't help themselves it may be possible to scrape together some of our leavings into a (MY suggestion for a) semblance of high end, but most won't even try."

Too bad hi-end can't be made simpler. It's easy to download MP3 crap online but high resolution files are hard to come by and even if you find them you have to worry about jitter, high frequency rubbish...... it gets real complicated real quick. Pity.

Tennis, I think you are referring to the "Golden Rule" (part of a moral/ethical belief system) . . Right?

The Golden Mean, or Golden Section as it's sometimes called, refers to a two-dimensional construct (a specific angle) which is derived using geometric principles.
.

Nsgarch and Mr Tennis will share the Golden Blivet Award this year. Both have the right idea wrongly stated.

For the rest of you:

The Golden Rule says, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you". This differs from the Limbaugh Rule which says, "Do unto others before they do unto you". Rush is a vicious paranoid.

The Golden Mean or Golden Section are names applied to the Fibonacci Series in mathematics illustrated in the following link:

http://www.textism.com/bucket/fib.html

Audio designers have experimented extensively over the years with Leonardo Fibonacci"s discoveries looking for ways to avoid wave cancellation. The topic is very interesting but appears to require a fairly advanced understanding of mathematics once you move beyond the fundamental description of its function.

Why don't more people love math?

More would love good audio if they heard it. But, most people do not consider good audio to be a priority. Hence, most people will not hear good audio.

This thread is proving to be instructive in ways I did not foresee.

People DO LOVE audio ... but it's fully integrated in ways that meet lifestyle requirements OR it's available to the degree allowed by economics. Most younger gen people are near-penniless and have "socialization" interests that preclude fragmentation (ie, a distinct and separate/separately-spaced audio system). This kind of suggests that most of us are too "busy" to waste precious time on something that is in large part esoteric and questionable as a separate entity. Virtually all of my students are aware of music that I never hear or have even heard of, but their listening habits/strategies make little sense to me, nor do mine to them. They look at me as if I were a freak ... and I am the freak ... even more so because I listen to jazz ....

You really don't have to mortgage your life away to get a half way decent system on the used market. Most people are just flat out indifferent to high end audio and are more than content listening to their ipod. I do happen to think there is a small percentage out there though, if properly exposed would undoubtedly jump on the runaway audiophile bandwagon

The larger question is most likely, 'Why don't more people love music enough to make it a LARGER part of their daily lives?' For example, why don't more people become more invested in music as opposed to Television?
The other night, I was talking to a new girlfriend on the phone...we began talking about music and I suggested that we turn our computers on and go to YouTube.
We then spent, 4 hours laughing and talking, listening to music--some she'd never heard of...partly because of age, (she's 16 years younger) and partly because of my music 'habit'.
We came to the Nancy Wilson/Cannonball Adderley songs, 'Save Your Love For Me' and 'The Masquerade Is Over'...she was really, really loving Nancy. AND she loved Cannonball's sound and solos.
Frankly, I was thinking globally, that it was a bit sad that more people are unaware of such music--music that I've known for almost half a century, she'd never known, and further thought that Nancy Wilson 'has the most spectacular voice I've ever heard.'
I think, if more people were exposed to music that could move them, they'd become more invested in 'audio', 'cause and effect'.

The other part of the evening that I liked a lot, was the notion, that there's still a lot more music out there that I too haven't heard yet, that's exciting.

Good listening,
Larry

4 hours is a lot of foreplay to waste on the phone.

you can love music but employ a medium that is very inexpensive, not "audiophile" quality" and still derive immense pleasure from listening.

there was a study in stereophile years ago that found that satisfaction from listening to music had a low correlation with the quality of sound.

i believe that the above-mentioned study is one explanation for the paucity of audiophiles.

by the way, the law of the golden mean is also a concept found in philosophical writings.

hi nsgarch:

i was not alluding to the golden rule. it bears no relevance to my comments. i am well aware of the fibonacci series. i was a math major.

the Golden Rule states that he who has the gold makes the rules

Lrsky - I completely agree with your post. I think TV is to blame. It is a time suck that has reduced interest in all sorts of hobbies. Audio/music is affected but isn't an isolated case.