f917025
“streamer users are fashion victims just like the first transistor users.”
Respectfully disagree, that’s a polite way of saying it....it’s all so subjective (room, system, etc.)...a few of us did a blind test where we listened to the same tunes from a CD and a streamer. We all picked the steamer. Files were the same size. The high res files to me are Nirvana.. The tube system used was excellent stuff but not the penultimate.
I have been giving away Cd’s after ripping then. I now listen to music files from what was on CDs on a fashionable Streamer in my uber fashionable cloths.
We can all love our music any way it’s piped in.
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I hope that the Muse Erato II is vastly superior to an earlier CD player Muse built, the Signature 9. I purchased that junk for $2300 back in the 90s. It cut off the beginning and ending of a note, round, bloated sound. Yuk! My old Kyocera 310 and 410 from 1985 blew it away. For the past 13 years, I have greatly enjoyed CDs through my EAR Acute which uses Wolfson chips. It is very rich sounding and not at all a resolution fiend. I may purchase a COS Engineering H1 DAC after audition as it sounds incredibly more detailed/higher resolution than my EAR Acute.
As to cheap cassette players trouncing high end CD players, ha ha. I own a Nakamichi zx7 cassette deck, second only to the Dragon and no cassettes come close to 1000s of my well mastered CDs. Am I to assume that only a cheap cassette player can be used and not a top quality one? No, someone got a screw loose. I used to transfer CDs in the 1980s to cassettes (100s of them). Prerecorded cassettes were generally awful. Only a few I recorded live using a Tandberg 310 cassette deck rivaled a good CD or RR tape. |
I used to own Micromega + a DIY DAC..it sounded pretty awesome..I then retired for 3 years and got my inch back starting with Oppo BDP-105..as time goes by, I have used Auralic Aries + Lampizator Golden Gate, followed with Aqua La Diva + Lampizator Pacific. Now I have Forsell Air Reference CDT + Lampizator Pacific and one server called LDM.
I should say, this LDM is at least equal to or sometimes, even better than my Forsell CDT. |
the Muse was about $10k new years ago, I paid $650 for it on Audiogon
Things that make you go hmmmmm... |
Meridian 508.24 (upgrade) sounds better than my neighbor’s streaming $8000 system—we A-Bed it and now he doesn’t want to talk to me anymore. We were going to compare again and bring some more of my CDPs, but he shut me down after the first comparison sound more natural and lifelike. |
I suspect it could be a master clock difference between the DAC used for streaming and the CD DAC. |
Thank you Jackd and Audiotroy! Switching the transcodimg to DSD absolutely made a difference amd brings the sound so close to what I like from my Muse Erato that its no longer a complaint. With A/B testing the two now it is difficult to hear a difference. But when A/B testing the PCM setting with the DSD setting the difference is there. Again, the PCM serting was notba bad sound, I just liked the Muse Erato, and now the DSD setting, much better for my taste. But I saw a few people here comment or suggest adding a power supply from sbooster or another company I can't recall now, thoughts on that? Yes Audiotroy I owe you a beer! |
no... not so... especially with upscaling... eg.. Chord MK2 Blu transport upscaler.........
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fsgattuso
Why does my old CD player sound so much better than my new streamer? Simple! I don’t doubt it sounds better when playing cd as that’s pcm and your Muse uses the best converter for that, and it’s R2R Multibit Ladder.
MUSE ERATO 4 x PCM1704 (being the last best ones in chip form) Your Lumin D2 uses Wolfson Delta Sigma converters, good for doing DSD if you into it, but not as good for doing PCM Redbook or DXD 16/44 or 24/96.
Cheers George
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F917 please tell me how good your 1988 Sony trinitron looks compaired to todays best TVs look.
We have been replacing CD players for years with streamers and the better streamers sound way better.
Go listen to a good flac file ripped on an Innuous being feed to a good dac or dac streamer set up with good cables smokes the comparably priced CD. |
I got my Sony DVP-S7000 from storage yesterday. Fire it up, insert my favorite CD, Wala, the music is as enjoyable as Tidal HiFi. The machine is the suppose to be DVD player but Sony added redbook laser lens. It has one of the best transport. I will test to add a R2R DAC with it.
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audiotroy
so i gather you don't sell cd players anymore? how could i tell? "Do you honestly think that the thousands and thousands of audiophiles across the world are getting rid of their CD players because their new streamers suck?" yes .i know because iv'e a\b'd it myself. when transistors (home audio , guitar amps)emerged in the early 60's they were the bomb ...for a while,
thousands and thousands of audiophiles across the world got rid of amazing tube amps for transistors. it took some time for people to
acknowledge what they lost . guitar players wouldn't stand it for a second (it was changing their artistic voice not what they consume as listeners)so they and mainly audio research(r.i.p) kept the flame going while
salespeople made the whole world believe that transistors are better and now the audiophile community is back to tubes decades after.
streamer users are fashion victims just like the first transistor users. it's your client that thinks the streamer sucks compared to a 10 year old cd player. the fact that he is surprised is due to being brainwashed by salesmen like you.(he knew from the first second it doesn't sound near as good because he has been using this cd player before buying the streamer so he got used to a better sound) i have no doubt and would't even bother comparing them . i have my ears and don't need salespeople quoting pseudo science . if you were men enough you would encourage all your streamer buying clients to a\b against their old cd players(not 10k cd players that will easily smoke any streamer 10 years ahead ,the common stuff oppo onkyo denon sony whatever ). the pro idsd will sound much better than the lumin but calling it "warm" is just wrong. it's a well balanced crispy sweet open sound. he already has a preamp so it's a bit of a waste. i don't think that the lumin is a particularly bad sounding streamer i think(also most sound engineers i know) that steaming will never sound as good as playing cd's |
you know I quiver agreeing with a salesperson my hands are trembling... but there are some incredible cd players that bring out DSD :)- |
I guess beauty really is in the eye of the beholder. A cheap cassette player is more musical than most CD systems. It’s more dynamic, has better tonality, it’s sweeter and has more air.
Broken hands on broken ploughs,
Broken treaties, broken vows,
Broken pipes, broken tools,
People bending broken rules
Hound dog howling, bull frog croaking,
Everything is broken
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Op use the line above and set PCM to DSD and then see how it sounds.
If we are correct you own me a beer.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Lumin dealers digital audio specialists |
Yeti sorry to disagree, but there have been spectacular CD playback systems that were easily competitors to very high end vinyl playback.
We had the Audio Aero, Remiyo, CD players and they were both spectacularly musical.
If you ever hear a T+A PDP 3000 playing a red book CD or SACD you would be blown away by the sound.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Lumin dealers |
Nostalgia is vinyl not CD, CD never lived up to the hype, ever.
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With out of the box settings I found the opposite.
Granted my gear isn’t yours but my T2 with upgraded power supply (with a good ethernet and power cables but not stratospheric ones) sounds better than my PrimaLuna tube CD player.
Also using WiFi into one of these...TP-Link Wireless N300 2T2R Access Point, 2.4Ghz 300Mbps, 802.11b/g/n, AP/Client/Bridge/Repeater, 2x 4dBi, Passive POE all of $23.
Apples to apples tests at 44k of the same tracks by three of us (nerds?) were done. At 96K to me sound was that of tip top vinyl.
I now now have ripped all cd’s to flacks and run those via the Lumen T2. Happy.
Every thing that’s any sort of cable/cord/power/power supply on my gear has been tweaked and what an audible difference. Your mileage may vary but better connects made a difference over stock. I don’t have anything that’s at the highest tear. |
To Audiotroy,
I cannot find where to engage DSD transcoding? There is no manual and on the Lumin website for set up of this product I do not see where to do this. Can you explain? Maybe I'll call Lumin. I am using the stock power cord. I am using Wi-Fi not ethernet because an ethernet cable would have to be about 40 feet long and require holes drilled through walls and a floor. The retainer recommended TP link range extender that I use, which provides a strong signal. I read in some posts here about an sbooster power supply so I am looking into that, but still considering reading in the D2 for a T2.
Besides this, there seems to be no clear answer through all the many responses on here. Some think the difference is in the digital phase, others think its the analogue. But I appreciate all the responses and will keep reading them. |
@ danvignau... see my post above problem solved..... |
@ggc all my music sounds better than CD , but its an elaborate system ... as you noticed changing a power cord made a big difference, interconnects will also make a huge difference, usb cables (high quality) and of course a dedicated music player like an Antipodes or Innuos also make a difference a mac mini while good ; won't compete with those dedicated players... why you may ask... because they are noise treated at the board level and components etc.. special power supplies to eliminate noise... |
I have been continually amazed by audiophiles who state that their streaming service doe o match a good CD player. Why? Because I have never heard a streaming service/player that sounds as good a my CD player. Can anyone here state that there in no doubt that your streamer sounds better than CD? If so, what speakers and electronics do you have/ |
I am by no means an expert on Computer / Streamer players. But this is what I have experienced - for anyone that cares about a layman's investment point of view.
I had sat on a Mac Mini for years before I made the commitment to send it off to have it modified to eliminate all the noise and erroneous programs that computers tend to automatically run in the background, etc. I had a separate power supply, clock, power and USB cable added. - I do use wifi to connect to the internet.
I took advantage of a Audrivana special and found that everything sounded OK. Upon giving my feed back a few months later to 3 very respected consumer audio industry professionals - they unequivocally said, at separate times - there is no way, that any computer audio/ streamer on the market today is going to be as good as, let alone better than a 10k+ CDP.
Soon after getting that sobering dose of reality, while listening to the mac mini, curiosity prompted me to switch out the Analysis Plus Silver Oval power chord and attached a Stage 3 Concepts Kraken. The difference was not subtle. I had a completely brand new unit that performed at an extremely higher level - by far the absolute best that I have ever heard computer audio sound to date. However it still did not sound as good as my Wadia S7i CDP. Maybe 75-80% as good. Will it get there time will tell.
The reference to cooking in one of the previous responses is a little off.
Great cooking is a result of the sum total
manipulation of
of the science associated with it. So by the example given what would be more accurate is that the adjustments suggested are more akin to using a different pot, pan, stove or oven to execute the process - rather than adding salt, pepper or herbs. -
Anyway I believe everyone understood point being made.
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Again OP have you tried to run the D2 with DSD transcoding engaged?
Are you using a stock power cable?
How many hours are on the piece?
Are you using a stock ethernet cable?
All of these settings will affect sound quality.
The DSD setting gives the D2 a much warmer fuller presentation.
Hey Rbsterno just wondering if you are going to be crying when PS comes out with their next version that magically won't be upgradable for a minor cost and you will be scrapping your DS.
You will realize soon enough that FPGA doesn't get you as far as truly upgradable hardware, which is why we recommend the Aqua La Voice.
Aqua will be introducing a totally bespoke custom designed and built streaming bridge that is designed by Aqua and not a cheap "Chinese made streaming board that many companies purchase instead of designing their own.
Lets talk in six months and do a little head to head, our fully upgradable, modular dac with a bespoke streaming board of the highest quality, that is also FPGA based at the same price and see which you prefer.
The future of digital is modular hardware, so what sounds good today can morph into what sounds even better tomorrow of course that is for the more expensive devices. For the less expensive ones that degree of modularity will be too expensive, for that reason a unit like the Lumin D2 which can morph into a pretty good streamer or the T2 which is basically a paired down Lumin U1 streamer makes a lot of sense, built in upgradablilty by virtue of becomming an excellent streamer to an even better dac.
As per the OP he needs to play a bit more with the D2 or try an Ifi DSD Pro which is also tube based streamer which may be more full bodied for his taste and system's voicing.
Dave and Troy
Audio Doctor NJ Lumin,. Ifi, and Aqua Dealers |
lol Bluetooth is better than ethernet... that's laughable... nothing is better than direct connections period........ also cables make a HUGE difference don't let anyone ever tell you otherwise...... ever....
See post above PROBLEM SOLVED |
You’ve had the advice of a Lunpizator dealer, did you manage to try his recommendations to any advantage?
If you’re still getting nowhere can you get a loan of one of the latest Naim streamers? I have one and haven’t played a CD in months and though I do still play vinyl it’s less often than it used to be. The CDX2 never quite convinced on classical chamber music, even with a 555ps, the ND555 does and with ease. If it’s facility with Tidal is repeated down the range one of it’s junior siblings might be worth a listen. Alway assuming the 20 year Naim ownership wasn’t proved to be a mistake.
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From the OP....
Muse just sounds so much warmer, live and simply more enjoyable. Any thoughts or suggestions......
High end Streamers give incredible detail but are just not natural.
No Jam to the music! |
Its funny how there is a school of thought out there that insists ethernet cable over bluetooth....
A really good bluetooth is better.
The next is the device to use for music.
For me an Ipad mini...
Ok go ahead and laugh...
But it images and has a Jam to it like no other..
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Because it is less resolving.
And it Jams.
All of your sophisticated cables and high end hookups will not satisfy you.
Get your setup to where it sounds best to you. For me getting off my computer setup and using an Arcam Rblink Bluetooth with a tube preamp buffer between my pre and amp was magic.
The system is musical again.
Like I have mentioned before...
Alot of streaming systems sound Vapid.
What high end video did to watching tv its the same to music via streamers...very climical with absolutely no "Jam" or any soul.
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You might prefer the Lampizator amber 3 to the PS Audio DS dac because it’s tube based and you like the sound of tubes. That’s cool. But, If you compare the 2 dacs, technically the DS is in a different league, and sound wise, it’s an excellent sounding dac. A lot of the time, when people originally listened to the DS dac, they were listening with an older firmware release. I just upgraded the firmware on my DS sr yesterday and got a bump in SQ for free, try that with most other dacs at any price, you can’t. Also, there are a few ways to setup the DS to get the max SQ out of it, these tips are on the web.
Looking at the Lampizator amber 3, where is the Ethernet port? I don’t see on their website that it’s FPGA based, so no future upgrades, I don’t see that it’s a Roon endpoint? Is there MQA or DSD support?With most streamers and dacs, you are using the USB interface which is flawed from the start. Salesman and tweakers are going to try and sell you technology to make USB sound better and some do like using the best cable and reclockers, but IMO it’s like putting lipstick on a pig, it’s still a pig.
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all this banter.... here’s a simple answer ready for it? Ready , ready , ready here it comes ready, ready , ready , ready................................................IT"S CALLED NOISE..... that’s why your cd player sounds better. I’m not 100% sure or your setup but to get it to sound better.
A. Eliminate noise where possible and if your budget can afford it. A Sotm switch will do that for you (has a built in clock)
B. If you use ethernet in your system Sotm Cat7 cables filters will also assist.
C. Word clock if you can afford it
I’ve heard these on streamers and the difference is night and day no exaggeration. The biggest leap when the switch was added...
Problem solved.......
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Why would you want to pay a lot of money to tweek the sound to be warm and easy-listening and boring? Yes, if you like to listen to bad recordings but otherwise? |
A high quality dac ,like the new Lampizator amber 3
which is $2750 is a vacuum tube dac and night and day better then Any
streamer with built in dac is you want a you are there 3D perspective
enjoy the music .com just gave it a rave musicality 5 stars across the board.
a good outboard dac and good usb cable , you are all set. Here is no point
buying a better streaming dac even their $10k LUMIN will not touch the new Lampi Amber 3 thst I can assure you having a great designed dac and then add several Vacuum tubes to the mix even streaming will give you a much warmer
real perspective ,even less then ideal recordings are listenable ,and a
2 week return policy if not happy. I sold my PS Audio dac That was $6k
to buy this Amber 3 it is thst good, and can make it better still with a premium fuse and great vintage tubes ,from Brent Jesse recording ,or Andy at Vintage tube services. |
It is the different DACs which is contributing most of the difference in sound you hear.
I have a high end CD player with a digital USB input to allow a network bridge (streamer with no DAC) to run through the same DAC. Initially CD sounded better. However by making the following adjustments to the streamer they now sound virtually identical:
1. Connect the streamer to the router via Ethernet not WiFi
2. Turn off in the streamer the following: Bluetooth, WiFi, HDMI, and any other connecting methods other than Ethernet
3. Introduce a good quality network switch (eg Cisco) between the router and the streamer
4. Use Cat8 Ethernet cable.
5. Try different USB cables. This provided subtle improvements.
After these changes the sound is almost identical. |
f917025 what cool aid are you drinking? Do you honestly think that the thousands and thousands of audiophiles accross the world are getting rid of their CD players because their new streamers suck? We have been at this rodeo for 30 years, and often times when this situation occurs, it is a simple matter of finding out what the issue is, sometimes it is because the older unit is voiced to work better with the system as it is vs the new product which may be more transparent. Sometimes it is just a burn in warm up issue, a cold dac/ streamer or CD player will take one to two days to come back to sound quality after being unplugged and moved. Other issues could be that this listener wants a really warm or more rolled off piece of digital where the Ifi DSD pro for example which uses tubes has a fatter more colored sound than the Lumin. DSD sounds warmer based on the technlogy and how filters are applied, ask most listeners to decribe the sound quality of DSD vs PCM, We were around when DCS 20 years ago was showing how transcoded PCM files sounded distinctly different than the same file played as a PCM file. There is also no such thing as basic sound or intrinsic sound quality when a system is an aggregate of all of its parts. Think of it like cooking, you start with great ingredients, and then add a pinch of salt or pepper or other spices to bring out the flavors you wish. Most dishes even with great ingredients don't come alive until flavor enchancers are added to the meadly of the other ingredients. If you omit the salt, pepper, vinegar or acidic ingredients, and other similar flavors even the great ingredients fail to capture the palet. Same thing with a warm beer, same product pretty uninspiring at room temp unless it is a porter or stout, but cool the beer to right temperature and add the right glass and the experience is radically different. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Lumin dealers |
Because you expected it to. |
I second the opinion of ripping one of your good sounding CDs and then listening to that version through the streamer. I enjoy Tidal, but recognize that the releases on Tidal may not always be the masterings with the best dynamic range. I use this website database to lookup which ISBNs have the highest DR. Good luck. http://dr.loudness-war.info/ |
By the time the data gets to the DAC its too late. The damage is done in the first picosecond as the laser reads the physical data on the disc. There's absolutely nothing you can do to reverse the damage once it occurs. Sorry to be the bearer of bad gnus. |
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It is quite possibly not actually the digital conversion, but rather the analog stage in the DAC. The analog output stage designs vary pretty wildly in both DACs and players, and range from op amp based. all the way up to fully discrete output stages. |
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answer:because it's not so old ,costs five times more made by a far better audiophile minded brand and meant for audiophiles with money no object revealing systems. it's not surprising at all .
sound quality wise a cd player is just far superior to any streamer.i suspect that a 2k cd player from today will also kill any streamer(even when both use the same dac... scary ah?) .cd players are measured by their sound quality streamers are measured by dsd:
dsd 128 is less than dsd512 that's all you need to know
that salesmen dogmatic answer is just priceless
so dsd is a warm sounding format compared to what?
we say it's warm so it's warm!
you don't like the basic sound signature? upgrade and enhance it!
swap the power cord! try acoustic treatment! drink something!
it's panic and they ignore your problem completely
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@fsgattuso
: I read your post too quickly & neglected to look up the D2 until now. It is quite possible that a Muse Erato might have a better-sounding DAC than the D2. Kevin Halverson of Muse was some kind of digital genius (may still be, don't know his whereabouts now). His Muse gear of Erato vintage persuaded me to give up my analog front end. Keep yours as long as it runs!
In any case, I agree with another poster that, to do a fair test, you need to rip a few CDs and run them through the Lumin. Some of us find that audio quality from the streaming services can be variable.
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Is Audioquest a high-end HDMI cable? I got one of theirs for $400 for my DVD player--was told the image would have more depth. Hard to quantify, but it does look good. Is there a USB or ethernet equivalent for computer/DAC-based front ends and streamers? Seems to be lots of tweaks for headphone systems, must be for the above.
I'm a throwback for CD players, I have to say. I like big power cords and connectors, good XLR connections and interconnects, high-purity copper, heavy platters, big power supplies, heavy platforms, complete isolation from vibrations, and the CD itself--big and heavy, that's where the sound is for me. My audio retailer, who has a MacBook set up into a number of DACs as well as featuring players in his showrooms, once said stored files may not be as good as the CD from which they are derived--I know little that or about file-based audio but would just say try to optimize connections and reduce vibrations. |
I like the sound of my streamer/DAC combo better than my CD player. My CD player is a Cambridge Audio 851-C. Although I would suspect most here would not regard that player as being really that good. |
fsgattuso
There is something to be said about a player retailing for $10K.
Ayre, Muse or Naim are all excellent within their own design. If you own a sizeable CD collection, this is your best option over a server/streamer option.
Happy Listening! |
I believe most of old CD player and old DAC will have a superior matching sound stage output when playing a cd 14.4K red book format. The design concept is to achieve smooth musical soundstage and reduce hearing of micro details which to reveal errors when playing cd 14.4k format.
A new, modern DAC does not design to get best quality from 14.4k format but a high def, DSD, or other super high quality format which will give much more detail and soundstage providing that you got those high definition sources. Using of this modern high quality DAC to play 14.4k CD format will give you annoying, too much revealing details, which is not a pleasant listening.
I have both old legacy dac and a moderm DSD DAC, both serve its purpose well and it cannot beat each other. |
tidal is crap! I get my tunes from you tube for free, same quality as my cds |
