Why Do So Many Audiophiles Reject Blind Testing Of Audio Components?
Because it was scientifically proven to be useless more than 60 years ago.
A speech scientist by the name of Irwin Pollack have conducted an experiment in the early 1950s. In a blind ABX listening test, he asked people to distinguish minimal pairs of consonants (like “r” and “l”, or “t” and “p”).
He found out that listeners had no problem telling these consonants apart when they were played back immediately one after the other. But as he increased the pause between the playbacks, the listener’s ability to distinguish between them diminished. Once the time separating the sounds exceeded 10-15 milliseconds (approximately 1/100th of a second), people had a really hard time telling obviously different sounds apart. Their answers became statistically no better than a random guess.
If you are interested in the science of these things, here’s a nice summary:
So reliably recognizing the difference between similar sounds in an ABX environment is impossible. 15ms playback gap, and the listener’s guess becomes no better than random. This happens because humans don't have any meaningful waveform memory. We cannot exactly recall the sound itself, and rely on various mental models for comparison. It takes time and effort to develop these models, thus making us really bad at playing "spot the sonic difference right now and here" game.
Also, please note that the experimenters were using the sounds of speech. Human ears have significantly better resolution and discrimination in the speech spectrum. If a comparison method is not working well with speech, it would not work at all with music.
So the “double blind testing” crowd is worshiping an ABX protocol that was scientifically proven more than 60 years ago to be completely unsuitable for telling similar sounds apart. And they insist all the other methods are “unscientific.”
Do you look for accuracy in a recording, or what pleases you, regardless of what the artist/producer/engineer is trying convey?
I listened mostly non commercial music...
Acoustic instrument mostly...
A piano is a piano.... A voice is a voice.... A timbre is accurate or not "for the ears"....Well recorded or less well recorded... This is accuracy for the ears....Different of "accuracy" by the numbers....
I listen the piano playing, not the way the recording engineer decide what is the best way to do it.... I hear well all these choices in different recordings but cannot change them....I listen the Chopin piano nevermind the recording if the pianist is great....
Everybody listen what it please them, but many like electronical,commercial, and non acoustical, bass explosive or loud instrument and voices etc....
Nobody listen a piece of gear for his accuracy by the numbers save deaf engineer who do not test their own design with their own ears.... They are not numerous i guess.... 😁
In a word what please me must be the most accurate for my ears but sometimes it is not.... A bad recorded piano playing of Scriabin by Sofronitsky is pure music.... Nevermind the sound....
Blind tests would need to happen instantly. But not in a backhand forth manner. Rather, after having listened to something for days, it would need to be switched instantly to something else. If there was a difference, you would know it. That is if, you had the experience to listen critically.
Thats why I live with things for a while, see what I like and what I don’t. Then I change back after a while. I make notes of what I hear.
When tuning a speaker, I listen to multiple amps. Each will impart a different tone and will showcase different issues. I also listen with bass dialed all the way down, treble all the way up and vice versa. Bit of a stress test.
And blind tests can not be done alone. They require someone else to be there obviously. If you were to listen to the same track over and over again, and listen carefully to particular instruments at particular times, if there is a difference, you will be able to hear it.
I repeat, if there is a difference, you will be able to hear it if you know how to listen. Especially when there is no “forcing” one thing to sound better than another. It’s just about listening for differences and what works and what doesn’t.
Spend some time tuning DIY speakers, and you will learn how to listen. And yes, you will listen to something for a while, like it, put it away, come back to it later and wonder what the hell did I like about it?
So, measure why that happens?
Being open minded to other possibilities does not negate science.
Measurements often can be irrelevant because a component or cable that measures great can sound awful, whereas distortion may sound quite pleasing. In the final analysis, all that matters is what you hear and enjoy.
One of my worst purchases was a piece which had great measurements. I couldn't wait to get rid of that piece.
a reasonable man, shown data that destroys his beliefs will change his beliefs to fit the data. audiophiles are not reasonable men. not many people can be counted on to accept they’re wrong. they kick, scream, call you names. doesn’t change the facts.
If audiophiles are not reasonable are you any more reasonable for being here? Your account can be easily erased since you are new w/ 3 posts so far. The rest of the dribble is just more psychological projection. If you want to blind test then do it right. But waste your own time not mine.
Measurements often can be irrelevant because a component or cable that measures great can sound awful, whereas distortion may sound quite pleasing. In the final analysis, all that matters is what you hear and enjoy.
peguinpower33 posts05-03-2021 9:04pm Yep. I work in tech. Have more data that I can use. I have a data scientist working for me. The first thing you learn is to make decision whether you have enough data or not, and the second reject data that is no use.
I use data more than most. I use data to make decisions at work overseeing close to two dozen people. Not an intellectual masturbator who found Google and thinks he has the key to the universe.
Yep. I work in tech. Have more data that I can use. I have a data scientist working for me. The first thing you learn is to make decision whether you have enough data or not, and the second reject data that is no use.
I use data more than most. I use data to make decisions at work overseeing close to two dozen people. Not an intellectual masturbator who found Google and thinks he has the key to the universe.
Nice generalization- audiophiles are not reasonable men.....how can you lump us all together when we disagree on many things very often - that is the purpose of meaningful discussion. Audiophiles are passionate about listening to the best sounding stereo to them that they can afford or choose to buy/afford. Different people have different priorities. If you don’t have audiophiledom as a hobby or priority or passion, why are you here? I certainly wouldn’t read a stamp or coin hobbyist forum site, not that there is anything wrong with those hobbies; just not my cup of tea.
Why would you want to troll a site frequented by what you consider unreasonable people?
We don’t all take a staunch opinion on blind testing value- more like what Paul from PS Audio said. It has its place as a possible piece of the decision pie, depending on circumstances.
I love blindtest sorry...Show me one i will study the results...I am curious....
But i cannot blindtest an INCREMENTAL day to day strings of change dealing with my listening experiments...
I dont trust those who trust ONLY blindtest.....
Is it not simple to understand?
you recognize a zealot easily, it is one for which exist only black and white choices...
I am not one.... sorry.....
i will trust a great number of satisfied customers over any blindtest....I will trust a blindtest if the product is not well known or not well appreciated....If there is a debate i will listen to a blindtest....but day to day in audiolife no one need systematic blindtest to establish audible fact....In psychoacoustic research blindtest is a useful tool, but daily audiolife is not psychacoustic research nor marketing circus....
Then who is not reasonable?
Why calling audiophile more unreasonnable than "scientism" zealot ?
Because it is black or white?
«All fact dont wait for a blindtest to be born»-Anonymus Smith
a reasonable man, shown data that destroys his beliefs will change his beliefs to fit the data.
audiophiles are not reasonable men. not many people can be counted on to accept they're wrong. they kick, scream, call you names. doesn't change the facts.
And Glubson, I am pretty sure you read my reply to you after you reported and it was deleted. Two words for you my dbag: tell him. Let him bring it on.
Blindtest has no significance save in blackbox situation for a researcher or statistically like in medical research...
In audio blindtesting is a circus most of the times save well organised for marketing reason....
One single audiophile dont need it.... I lived through hundred of single changes positives or negative or neutral in the last 2 years.... In this step by step listenings experiments i never needed an external authority over my ears...
Blindtest out of serious science is a circus.... If someone dont trust his ears in audio he is the one gullible to external tools negating the verdict of his own perception...
Any tool is a useful slave but a useless master....
Pseudo scientists ideologue are like religious fanatics...Their alleged skepticism is a blind faith in fact.... True skepticism is a tool not a master....And beliefs are only roots you cannot all cut....Choose well....
Musical timbre perception is never a placebo, it is a learned bias....I dont doubt timbre....I doubt only speck of sound or ghost of music....
And anyway you dont doubt what you create yourself.... I never bought tweaks and i dont buy new cables....
It sounds like you have the inside scoop on this Glubson.
And let me be straight with you dbag: if someone threatens me via PM telling me “I know where you work”, like your previous Audio2Design friend did, or David Letchworth, whatever, I will not back down and submit to the bully. I am not afraid of him. And go ahead and tell him, I mean what I said to him, if he does something to me. This is my livelihood, and will do everything I can to protect it, protect my family. Whatever it takes. Tell him. I will spend my last dime, take my own life, to do what I told him I will do. I promise you that. I mean it. Tell him. One word that threatens my family, and I am all in. I know who he is too. Tell him that too.
Well …. It looks like DLetch2 is gone. Whether banned or just quit on his own, I have no idea.
Honestly I am not surprised, following the previous patterns of this guy, most recently posting as Audio2Design, before that as AtDavid, Roberttdid, Dannad, and perhaps other names I lost track of.
One thing I guarantee is he will be back. Guaranteed. It will be easy to spot. Again.
@edgewound - this is a forum. i hope we are all adults. you have not been attacked. I say what I mean and if your feelings get hurt, thats tough.
Rest assured, if you are happy where u are, well and good. I can be happy for you. However, I can be just as vocal as the opposing position. And if it hurts feelings, fortunately, Ive got thick skin.
If you want to learn this stuff the odds of running into someone like me who really does understand and can actually explain it are slim to none.
This kind of renaissance man is a thing of the past because we have been sold the idea of the "Expert". He/She supposedly knows a very large amount about a small subject. But I have lamented many times that the various experts know a lot about their specific ingredient which goes into the pie. And the amount of experts needed to build a pie may be 10-20-25, etc. But no one knows what the pie should taste like. Therefore the pie is often quite inferior to the one grandma used to make and she only had a 5th grade education.
This is not to belittle education but the process itself which is often quite flawed.
peguinpower29 posts05-03-2021 11:54amthe biggest irony with these testing nerds is that they are usually the ones with the least exposure to a wide and varied spectrum of equipment. Its not even a question of affordability, but in most cases, its a dogmatic view of the hobby and refusal to listen. that being the case, they fail the number criteria in scientific methodology. they fail to observe. If you listen to a lot of music, and over the years have experience a good assortment of equipment, trust me, trust your ears. audio reproduction is no different from food or wine. Its is consumption that stimulates the senses. Its basis is science, but satisfaction and fulfillment comes down to giving the listener an experience.
if you want plain sustenance, Mcdonalds is right there for you. Its got everything you need and it measures well :)
Actually...McDonald's "food" is not good you, and will lead you to an early grave. This has been measured.
Making such snobbish comments on those of us that don't buy into the all the audiophile nonsense, have actually listened to this varied gear and reach a conclusion that the prices don't justify the performance...by actually listening, and not falling for the psychologically subjective things they are told are there. Refusal to listen? That's an incredibly ignorant assumption and statement to make. You can snicker all you want at those that don't join your elitist club...the same reason's I never joined a fraternity. It's not what you know...it's who you know. And it's pretty fake.
Uh, oh, people putting words in my mouth..... I spit them back out at you. Read what people say not what you think. Better listening skills I hope. Live and learn. Test too!!! Its all real, very real!!!
so what? true experiences are not in had the laboratory nor in school, but in the real world, where stuff comes at you from every direction.
if you havent learned how valuable true experience is in life and business, then nothing I say will change you mind. youve got to experience it first (see what I did there?)
... if you utter
the words "double blind" in anything other than mockery and derision
then YOU are the ape trying to fix the helicopter with a hammer. YOU
need to drop the BS step away from the keyboard go out and DO and HEAR
and LEARN- on your own.
Let's please not throw the baby out with the bathwater. Scientific listening tests have value - though that value is limited - and they have their place. But they are not infallible nor are they reason to dismiss empirical results with a wave of the hand, which is what has begun to happen here. It's even worse when the demand for some sort of blind testing is accompanied with the accusation that a listener is insane, deluded, retarded, etc. - all of which has happened here.
Uh, folks breaking news: double blind IS a form of listening and learning. So it sounds like everyone agrees that is a good thing, but of course there is a place and time for everything.
Right?
Maybe for some, who are filled with self doubt. For me, it's just one of many disciplines that I choose not to partake as I find it unnecessary and a bit of a fool's errand.
By the time I got a piece of equipment, it's already been analyzed to death. Anything I do to it afterwards, is just tuning it to my satisfaction.
Uh, folks breaking news: double blind IS a form of listening and learning. So it sounds like everyone agrees that is a good thing, but of course there is a place and time for everything.
The one you mention, wretch2, not only should all his posts be removed but then he should be suspended. For a start. And this is from a guy who abhors censorship. But if the whole point of a forum is to exchange ideas to help people find what they need to build a better system, how can you do this with people clogging it up with nothing but blather, and worse? You can't. So they need to go.
The wretch is not being censored. There are no end of sites he can blather to his hearts content. Just not here.
i was in the presence of a true master race mechanic from a Japanese manufacturer with decades of experience. He taught my colleague how adjust the valve clearance on a particular engine. Simply spacing the intake valve tight to the gauge, and the exhaust a little loose gave a 30hp boost in output.
you dont learn stuff like that from testing nerds. You get it in the field trying, failing and learning.
They were all monkeys with a hammer trying to fix a helicopter.
Gosh its raining great lines.....that being said the clouds are parting and the sun is coming out....though, if history is any indicator, bad weather will be here again in short order.
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