2. cables
  3. 166355-2693

Why Do So Many Audiophiles Reject Blind Testing Of Audio Components?

Because it was scientifically proven to be useless more than 60 years ago.

A speech scientist by the name of Irwin Pollack have conducted an experiment in the early 1950s. In a blind ABX listening test, he asked people to distinguish minimal pairs of consonants (like “r” and “l”, or “t” and “p”).

He found out that listeners had no problem telling these consonants apart when they were played back immediately one after the other. But as he increased the pause between the playbacks, the listener’s ability to distinguish between them diminished. Once the time separating the sounds exceeded 10-15 milliseconds (approximately 1/100th of a second), people had a really hard time telling obviously different sounds apart. Their answers became statistically no better than a random guess.

If you are interested in the science of these things, here’s a nice summary:

Categorical and noncategorical modes of speech perception along the voicing continuum

Since then, the experiment was repeated many times (last major update in 2000, Reliability of a dichotic consonant-vowel pairs task using an ABX procedure.)

So reliably recognizing the difference between similar sounds in an ABX environment is impossible. 15ms playback gap, and the listener’s guess becomes no better than random. This happens because humans don't have any meaningful waveform memory. We cannot exactly recall the sound itself, and rely on various mental models for comparison. It takes time and effort to develop these models, thus making us really bad at playing "spot the sonic difference right now and here" game.

Also, please note that the experimenters were using the sounds of speech. Human ears have significantly better resolution and discrimination in the speech spectrum. If a comparison method is not working well with speech, it would not work at all with music.

So the “double blind testing” crowd is worshiping an ABX protocol that was scientifically proven more than 60 years ago to be completely unsuitable for telling similar sounds apart. And they insist all the other methods are “unscientific.”

The irony seems to be lost on them.

Why do so many audiophiles reject blind testing of audio components? - Quora
128x128artemus_5

Showing 9 responses by sokogear

sokogear
1,054 posts
 
Paul at PS Aduio's video posted above is right on the money. Keep everything the same, blind folded A vs. B for a minute or as long as you need to get a feel for it and then play the same thing on the B option. If you can't hear a difference, then who cares? Just make sure someone else sets it up for you so you are not biased in any way.

It's the only way to justify an expenditure.

I can't believe this is even debated. What else are you going to go by, some review whose magazine has paid advertisers or is friends with the designer or manufacturer or is incentivized by them? 
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
@darkstar - yes this will be perfect for you if you have a chauffeur and have him/her drive you around and you sit with a blindfold the whole time. Of course this will help only if you never intend to drive the car....only ride in it.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
Please look back at PS Audio's video near the top of the discussion. It is right on the money. Now, some things are not easy to compare, like certain tweaks, acoustic treatments, etc., and correcting the volume for different outputs of components being tested is not easy (or may be impossible as louder typically sounds better), and sometimes other factors come into play, like how good a deal you got, the dealer making it easy with a trade in credit or handling of the sale of your old gear, etc. This is typically not black and white, and certainly not life or death.

Bottom line, if you don't like what you bought, hopefully it has some fans and you can sell it here or on another site. 

Lets stay away from exaggerated comments like cults that have negative (or are negative) connotations. Enjoy the hobby and the gear whether you keep things for a long time or a constant tinkerer with upgradeitis.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
@elapid 

Nice generalization- audiophiles are not reasonable men.....how can you lump us all together when we disagree on many things very often - that is the purpose of meaningful discussion. Audiophiles are passionate about listening to the best sounding stereo to them that they can afford or choose to buy/afford. Different people have different priorities. If you don’t have audiophiledom as a hobby or priority or passion, why are you here? 
I certainly wouldn’t read a stamp or coin hobbyist forum site, not that there is anything wrong with those hobbies; just not my cup of tea.

Why would you want to troll a site frequented by what you consider unreasonable people?

We don’t all take a staunch opinion on blind testing value- more like what Paul from PS Audio said. It has its place as a possible piece of the decision pie, depending on circumstances.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
Can we please just put this discussion to bed? Obviously there is some benefit to blind testing, which takes some effort to set up properly, but it is not the be all and end all, especially for the situations where a test is not possible.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
Can’t they make members register under a unique email address and restrict that address to one user? Once they’re kicked off they can’t come back unless they have a new email address.

To make sure they’re not just creating more email addresses, link that to something that shows that email address has been around for a while. I think we have the technology to root out the sickies like dletch2 or elapid or whatever he goes by.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
Sometimes listening is not feasible, or at least blind testing in one's own environment is not feasible, so we depend on recommendations of trusted influencers or other members who are known to have good listening skills and are not corrupted or paid by manufacturers. Once we use the product, we form our own opinions. If we don't like it, we sell it. That why Audiogon is in business - Audiophiles (and stores) selling their equipment. Other sites too that don't charge for their service - they exist on advertising on their sites.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 
If it actually sounds better or it doesn't but you think it does, all that matters is someone is happy with their purchase. Also, of course everyone's hearing and listening capabilities and appreciation is a big variable.

I have found some things don't do what I was told they would, and others did WAY more than I thought possible. By making these types of changes, you learn what can impact the sound the way you want. 

What listening in stores CAN do is if you compare one component to another while keeping everything else (and I mean everything) the same. Optimally playing a few records you know. Stores may not be so willing to do this....

Otherwise, I've had a salesman say that he was so sure of the improvement, I could take it home and if I wasn't amazed (not happy or satisfied), I could return it for a refund (not the BS store credit nonsense).

It was an arm, and it made more of a difference than upgrading the table separately keeping the new arm. He's never made that guarantee on anything else I was considering. He would say something like "I'd expect it or I am sure but I've never directly compared". Also, not willing to do the cash refund guarantee. That tells you something.
sokogear
1,054 posts
 

That is why I only like to make changes that are immediately noticeable and not subtle. The subtle ones I am sure add up over the long term, it is just tougher to appreciate and justify them.

More to discover