Why do I need power management if I have a great power cord?

It‘s not a question of removing audible hum hiss and noise. I have no such issues yet have garnered definite audible improvements with the use of a PS Audio P10 and an industrial 1KW isolation transformer (used individually) upstream on certain system components.

• Which “industrial 1KW isolation transformer”
• Which “certain system components”

@ghdprentice "High end audio is a very complex endeavor… full of ambiguity and complexity."

Well said. The problem is not "trying to prove a negative," as someone else said, the problem is to hear something that one does not yet know how to hear. Hearing is mostly interpretation and only partly physical. One needs to know what to listen for.

I think of the days before OLED TV’s. People would say, "This IS a black background." Then, much blacker blacks came along and people could now see that they had been missing something. And it was not just the blacks. It was everything on the screen. Everything gets better -- and the whole experience gets better.

So, the first reaction -- "This is just 'up-selling' or 'snake oil' -- turns out to be wrong. What folks came to learn was that quieting visual noise (making backgrounds blacker) changes the foreground by changing the background. That is very hard for people to understand, because they are focused -- almost exclusively -- on what is in the foreground. The fundamental mistake they make is to disconnect foreground and background. They are entangled for both perception and conception. @mahgister makes this point very well when he tries to direct attention to the room's acoustics. But his point applies very well to the technological devices' designs and their power sources, too.

This point about the "blacker background" applies pari passu to other things besides background noise; the way highs, mids, bass registers are expressed by speakers, the way transients and dynamics are shaped. And the technologies that make all these areas better are often not easy to grok, which is why your suggestions of resources like Robert Harley is so appropriate.

It‘s not a question of removing audible hum hiss and noise. I have no such issues yet have garnered definite audible improvements with the use of a PS Audio P10 and an industrial 1KW isolation transformer (used individually) upstream on certain system components.

Why do I need clean water if I have good quality copper pipes? 

 

@holmz "I assume that I do not need one because I have a lack of any noise/hiss etc when it is on, but not playing any music."

Thank you Holmz, brilliant point, assuming you run it loud.

I do when I am assessing whether or not there is a noise issue.

You are quite lucky if you hear nothing at all at top volume setting. My system and most others has a little low level white noise at that level. One can measure how far down it is. And test if a $1500 power cord removes or reduces it. It won’t, so try a $15,000 cord. A mains conditioner might …

…

I have had some issues in the past.

• I recall once a slight ground hum that was cleared up with rerouting wiring and star grounds.
• I had a bad hum on the that was the result of the lighting circuit in the ceiling above that room
  • But only affecting the TT
• Most of my gear is still on a 230–>115v transformer, so maybe that acts like a choke to limit noise or harmonics?

Or is my current preamp or amp just an odd ball low noise case?

It does make a hum on the TT input, with that starting at about 2-3 o’clock on volume (6:30 to 5:30 is the total swing of the volume… so starting ~ 3/4.)

I usually never run it past ~1 o’clock as that is about 95 dB(A) in the slow setting… depending on the music.

However on other inputs there is no hiss even at max volume.
This is with the head down in front of the left speaker.

The inside SPL is ~40-45 dB(A) with the front door shut, and the refrigerator running in the other room is the majority of the humming background sound.

With the front door open is 52 dB and the with the AC on is ~55dB ambient SPL background noise level.

I can hear the buzzing of the outside insects n such. But relatively quiet.

@holmz     "I assume that I do not need one because I have a lack of any noise/hiss etc when it is on, but not playing any music."

Thank you Holmz, brilliant point, assuming you run it loud.  You are quite lucky if you hear nothing at all at top volume setting.  My system and most others has a little low level white noise at that level.  One can measure how far down it is.  And test if a $1500 power cord removes or reduces it.  It won't, so try a $15,000 cord.  A mains conditioner might.

Changing a power cord can do nothing apart from deplete your bank balance.  It makes no measurable difference to the power entering your amplifier.

Adding a conditioner can clean up your power if it is dirty.  In such case it can make a measurable difference evidenced by removal of low-level noise artifacts.  In extreme cases such difference can be heard, like if you're running a fridge on the same circuit.

All else is hogwash.  And a lot of hogs are getting washed.

I’m going to go ahead and cautiously hazard that invoking the works of Kafka in this context is a bit, um… ambitious? 

I would agree on general principle @rfnoise.

At least by providing the list of the 13 reasons is appearing like more than Kafka got during his trial.
And Kafka was the one trail “without reason”, whereas what we have here is a trail, but no actual dependent having been nominated.

So maybe it’s just forward thinking to come up with the arguments against the naysayer(s), before they had even appeared in the thread?

I am sure that there are a few people somewhere in the middle, that want to know if the devices work, and when they are needed… Rather than reading vilifications against people who discount the devices who are not yet even present. It seems like it sets a bad tone for dialogue to start out with an attack using the baker’s dozen.

• How are we to know when to use a device?
• How are we to know which style of device to use?
• How are the devices designed to work?
  • Noise suppression
  • Voltage stability / reshaping
  • Under/over voltage protection
  • etc
• How does one know when they do not need such a device?

I assume that I do not need one because I have a lack of any noise/hiss etc when it is on, but not playing any music.

And when it is playing simple sounds it is clear and sounds pretty good.
Or is there more to it?
And if so what is it?

I’m going to go ahead and cautiously hazard that invoking the works of Kafka in this context is a bit, um… ambitious? 
 

@nonoise Agreed. Are you ready for none of them to answer my two questions? They won’t, I predict. (Bracing for powerful challenge in 3...2...1...)

Queue the response, 1…2…3…<and>…4

People who say it’s all snake oil raise two questions for me:

1. Do you think that these cords and conditioners have just been fooling everyone for decades? And they are too stupid to realize it and too deluded to know that they are not hearing a difference? If your answer is "yes" then you have a very low opinion of thousands of audiophiles.

2. Have you tried it? And if you had and it made no difference *to you* are you then just willing to extrapolate from one example to everyone else who does hear a difference?

People spruicking power conditioners have the onus on them to show that their product does something.

It is not intellectually appropriate to do a Greco Roman reversal, set up a Kafka’esque trail for the non-believers to offer some testimonial based counter point against the largely testimonial group that likes the power conditioners.

For one it is hard to disprove/prove a negative.

The ifi, for instance, shows the wall noise decreasing with one of their units.

How hard is it to show that some product works as described?

Everybody wants to sell more stuff. But if a power conditioner comes with a 14 gauge cord on it, then I would suggest passing, it isn’t designed to provide power for the spikes. The exception would be if a power conditioner has provisions to store power internally to address the spikes. Need to makes sure impedance doesn’t limit the ability to address fast spikes.

Note to future self @holmz
“When you make a product, then use a large cable, so it looks like it should really work.”

 

Naysayers’ reasons include:

1) they don’t know what they don’t know

2) they think they know more than they know

3) arrogance

4) ignorance

5) savior complex

6) fear - that their structured world will come crashing down if they’re wrong

7) poor hearing

8) low resolution audio system

9) old guy ’get off my lawn’ stubbornness

10) learning something new requires curiosity and humility

11) they don’t really understand what ’noise’ and/or ’black background’ is

12) they think that proper wire gauge is a panacea

13) ?

^This broad ad hominem attack^ is really nice. It shotguns out wide, and points out all the possible flaws that one can have. Plus it stays emotional, which is more powerful than facts.

It is so encompassing that it also hit the OP, so he is either (pick 1-13) , or needs the gear to be in the “in crowd”.

At least a few people just want to have a factual way to know if something will work before buying it. And I assume that the OP may be somewhat in that group.

But instead of offering any reason or fact, y’all convert it into a circling of the wagons against a naysayer attack, before the attack even began. It is pretty intellectually shameful, but it is great psychology to get everyone in locked step and the coherent message out early.

raysmtb1,i

"inner K’NEX" ?

Congrats! That's a new one.

@raysmtb1 

  +1

raysmtb1

. . . I’m only trying to be a voice for the new people that stumble onto some of this craziness.

Interesting.

Long-time Audiogon members are trying to do the exact same thing for newbies. Share their knowledge that’s been gained over decades of experience - trial & error.

Your approach appears to be zero sum. For you to be right, everybody else must be wrong. For veteran audio buffs, that’s a non-starter.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _

ghdprentice

High end audio is a very complex endeavor… full of ambiguity and complexity.

+1

@raysmtb1

There is an amazing amount to highend audio. I am a scientist, trained and worked for a living as one for over ten years, before graduate school. I quickly realized there were too many variables to account for what is any of what I heard as easily, explainable by easily with a few variables. In the last forty years of working with engineers constructing leading edge audio equipment and spending thousands of hours evaluating components and the nuances of the effect of components, interconnects, and tweaks I have learned a lot.

High end audio is a very complex endeavor… full of ambiguity and complexity. I am doing my best to coach those new to the endeavor to take the shortest path to what they are trying to achieve… assuming that is outstandingly satisfying sound quality. So, I try to educate folks on the nuances as best I can. Sources like The Absolute Sound, Stereophile can be really helpful… perhaps the best source as a starting point is Robert Harley’s The Compete Guide to the High End. This really lays out the basics of high end audio.

I appreciate your interest in sharing your observations and interest. It is a great and rewarding pursuit.

Thank you for the explanation of the noise floor. I really didn’t sign on to audio Gon tonight looking for a beef. I guess some of you guys are hearing something, I tried to hear it and spent a bunch of money in the process and nothing.… I wish it did work for me because I’ve got the time and the money and I would go all in if I did.

 I’m not trying to change anyone I’m only trying to be a voice for the new people that stumble onto some of this craziness. Good night, enjoy the music.

You could throw dedicated circuits into the mix too. When I listen to my Mcintosh 611 mono blocks the meters usually say that they’re drawing around 6 W each which is plenty loud. I’m not a scientist but if you do the math for watts to amps that means that the amp is only drawing .5 amps each. Combined, those two giant looking amplifiers are only using around 1 amp out of the 20 A available on a dedicated circuit. Actually, you’re only supposed to use around 15 A out of the available 20. So that means that you have 14 A of electricity left to use before you even come close to using up the available power. Many of these amplifiers today are made to look mean and power-hungry because that’s what sells. 

@raysmtb1

Sorry, you are conflating issues. First of all, yes, you are right, one of the major improvements in components is how it address power. This is one of the keys to great sounding components… correct. But the more the more better. For instance, I added a $9,000 power supply to a $9,000 DAC (Sim Moon. 650D adding the 820 dedicated power supply)… big difference. This is why flagship components are frequently two box components, with one remote box dedicated to just the power supply. 

A really good power conditioner, and direct lines I have put in have significantly improved my sound quality above that.

A power amp has different requirements. It needs unconstricted current or it is going to loose dynamics. So, most of us with high end systems use a direct line to the amplifier with no power conditioner and use a power conditioner for our other components… lowering the noise floor… by the way, something you do not hear directly. It takes experience to understand what a noise floor “sounds like”… you don’t hear it. It is the blackness in the background.. the comforting silence that makes you relax and fall into the comfort of nothing.

@raysmtb1 Thanks. So there's you, your friends plus I guess others with your conclusions. Then there are thousands who testify to a difference. Shall we call it a draw and agree that it's important for people to test it out for themselves? You did that and have reached a justified conclusion...for your ears, setup, etc.

I just saw your questions. I’ve spent thousands and thousands of dollars on all of this junk and it didn’t make a difference to me or any of my friends that I had over two here for themselves. All of my componentry is Macintosh it all has the stock power cords and all of my inner K’NEX are from Best Buy or Amazon. I have no noise in my system whatsoever. There’s no need for any of that redundancy 

Maybe we should throw dedicated outlets into the mix, just to allow the denialists a trifecta!

All of the electronics to clean up the power is already inside each component…. in or around the power supply, that’s why many people say their amp sounds better without a power conditioner. It’s because you’re choking the power twice when you use a power conditioner. The engineering department at the company that makes your equipment has already done this for you. Buying anything else it’s just a waste of time and money

@nonoise Agreed. Are you ready for none of them to answer my two questions? They won't, I predict. (Bracing for powerful challenge in 3...2...1...)

@hilde45 

+1

I guess all the "me too" posts makes it official:
they don't know what they're talking about.

All the best,
Nonoise

raysmtb1

540 posts

03-21-2022 at 07:24pm 

You don’t need any of it. People are preying on you and making you feel like your missing something. It’s all about the “UPSELL” in retail audio. You’re not missing anything.

  I agree!

People who say it's all snake oil raise two questions for me:

1. Do you think that these cords and conditioners have just been fooling everyone for decades? And they are too stupid to realize it and too deluded to know that they are not hearing a difference? If your answer is "yes" then you have a very low opinion of thousands of audiophiles.

2. Have you tried it? And if you had and it made no difference *to you* are you then just willing to extrapolate from one example to everyone else who does hear a difference?

raysmtb1

538 posts

03-21-2022 at 06:24pm 

You don’t need any of it. People are preying on you and making you feel like your missing something. It’s all about the “UPSELL” in retail audio. You’re not missing anything.

Truth.

Usually, I think about 90%+ the answer is because your system will sound much better. Mine always has. My neighborhood has underground power and I have two direct lines to my system; one for my components and one for my amp. The power seems very stable… but my system sounds significantly better with a conditioner.

I recently tried a Cardas power distribution strip ($1,500, with great cords attached to it) instead of my power conditioner… it took a couple second to hear the drop in sound quality. This is what most… but not all people experience. You could be one of the lucky ones… but odds are not in your favor.

@raysmtb1   Just because you don't believe in something, doesn't mean it don't work. 🤣

You don’t need any of it. People are preying on you and making you feel like your missing something. It’s all about the “UPSELL” in retail audio. You’re not missing anything.

This question comes up so often I wrote about it here:

Two different things completely! If a power conditioner is needed in your area for whatever reason, no fancy power cord will be a substitute for it.

The bottom line is you need to deliver plenty of power reserves to your amp to allow it to make good bass response.  It isn't as simple as supplying the nameplate current to the amp.  

The second half of the question, which is often debated, is, do you need to "clean up the power" to be 120V with "no noise" in it.  Many think that isn't necessary since the power is promptly rectified in the amplifier.  Others think it makes a huge difference.  

The problem I have is when the second effort affects the first.  If a power conditioner restricts current availability to address spikes needed to make good bass, it affects the sound. 

Everybody wants to sell more stuff.  But if a power conditioner comes with a 14 gauge cord on it, then I would suggest passing, it isn't designed to provide power for the spikes.  The exception would be if a power conditioner has provisions to store power internally to address the spikes.  Need to makes sure impedance doesn't limit the ability to address fast spikes.   

Bottom line is, putting anything upstream of an amp except a heaver (10 awg) power cord has a lot pitfalls that for sure some manufacturers don't address.  Do your research.  If possible, demonstrate the conditioner in home and have someone help you with a blind test vs plugged directly into the wall.

Jerry