Why do I keep torturing myself with remasters?

I only get original pressings never get remasters.

I had a couple different eq in the early 90s .I spent too much time playing with it for every album .As for "if its all i can get" sure,but the originals arent usually that hard its the condition that is tricky.I have recently bought  10 remasters and generally flip right past them for an original after listening to them, even with a few pops.

*sigh*  Not to spoil the 'cheezy whine' party, but if the remaster is all you can get, there's always eq.  Some have memories....much like us, as to 'what we Think it should sound like'....

But my memory is flawed, and colored.....by what I thought I heard before.

oleschool, no, I was not sarcastic, failed to read it even from between the lines. deleted my comment to be on the safe side ;-)

Here is Ken: https://www.lasercd.com
Cheers,
Spencer

Ole- search Laser's Edge Group- as i said, Ken has a bunch of different companies and labels under that umbrella. If you send him a message, you are welcome to mention my name. He visited recently- brought some interesting records, including an old RCA (Neon) and a Island UK test pressing of the first ELP album with a different (earlier) lacquer number on one side than the first pressing pink label. He may be a good resource for you. 
bill hart

Hey sevs ,I m a little confused was that sarcasism? I just thought it may be of interest to a fan of Gong

 Whart
Ken Golden ? my searches are finding a mathmatician and explorer .
Help a guy out lol...
 
rlawlry
 You certainly don't need 8k in albums man,why dont you send me a list of those eloys and others ,i can help you get rid of that junk.It's dated and old with grooves and pops yukk     : )

Ole, a couple of people have urged me to go to one of the Utrecht shows- likely where a lot of this stuff is going to show up. As to prices, I doubt you'll find any bargains on stuff like Il Balletto di Bronzo. But if you wanted to go wild, that's probably the place. The guy I would reach out to here in the States is Ken Golden, who I think I mentioned upthread- he seems more on top of collectible and obscure prog than anybody I know- he does sell new vinyl,  and represents a number of new bands in the prog, prog/metal and fusion areas, but may also have some suggestions for older prog copies or sources. In some cases, there are good older alternative pressings, e.g. the King Records Seven Seas imprint which I think I mentioned earlier. Ken has several companies- i believe they are all under the umbrella of The Laser's Edge. He just wrote a column about some prog obscurities that I published last week. 

oleschool, I feel your pain.  I also have somewhere near 8000 LPs and have always feared their loss in a fire or earthquake here in parched CA, along with pictures and tapes of my family when they were younger.  I do have all of the original German Eloys that I bought for a song at a local record store years ago and can imagine what they go for these days on ebay.  It is nice that ebay has vastly increased the availability of many titles but also lead to ridiculous price escalation.  Go see what original Island King Crimson LPs sell for.

Speaking of hideously bad remasters, I once bought a MFSL 45 rpm remaster of Patricia Barber Modern Cool and compared it to the original 33 rpm Premonition pressing I had.  On the first track of the $50 MFSL the sonics almost completely disappear during the song, sounding worse than an 8 track tape or transistor radio.  The rest of the LP sounds better but still vastly inferior to the original as all MFSL titles do.  When I tried to return it to Music Direct they denied the whole thing and refused to give a refund.  So I sold it for big bucks on ebay and kept the far superior original.

Whart , ya no kidding huh.I use to go up the street to my buddys store 
Of Sound MInd and grab a japaneese of this and a uk press of that .Il Belleto De Bronzo in stock lol .He is long since gone as is all my lps from my fire so i am really challenged to find all the old lps i enjoyed for many years.If you ever find or have a good source for some of these lps ,italian german and some english prog stuff hit me up.I am looking around for the original german pressed Eloys also ..
Listening to Gong Exprsesso right now.Who i saw a few times many moons ago ..(David Allen just died last month if you didnt know)

I got Di Terra recently, original Italian pressing, for reasonable money. (It came from overseas) Ditto, a Le Orme, from a shop in Manchester. Ken Golden hipped me to a decent remaster of Comus, First Utterance and the shop also had a few Le Orme, so I grabbed one to make the shipping cost cover more than one record. There are typically more copies available in EU/UK, but you pay the additional tariff for shipping. I also found an alleged mint- copy of one of the RCA Neons (Indian Summer) which should arrive soon, but Spring, which I have bid on several times and lost, is not easy to find on the cheap. If you are after some of these, you are definitely forced to look abroad--I have occasionally found a few in record shops specializing in "psych" in the States, but not easy. 

Ole- for some of those uber collectible records, that’s where a good remaster would pay off. One of the reasons why some of these records fetch big money now is that the record at the time of release wasn’t popular and few copies were pressed. (Or there could be a host of other reasons, contractual dispute with label, failure to promote at the time, etc. but the result, whatever the reason, is there are few extant copies). Once a record like that has been identified by collectors or listeners as something special, the price skyrockets. However, they remain niche products that wouldn’t justify the investment in tracking down the tapes (assuming they exist), licensing the master and artwork, hiring a good mastering engineer and bearing the costs of manufacture and distribution. Selling even a thousand copies might be a struggle.
With some exceptions, the better reissue houses tend to stick with less risky reissues and you are left with the original at crazy prices (and even at that, sometimes hard to find without problems) or shoddy re-do’s from questionable sources. Sometimes, you can get lucky- you will hear of "barn finds" (really a vintage car term but same deal with records) of a 3 or 4 or 5 figure record that someone found in a bin for almost nothing, but in my experience, that’s not really very common....
I didn’t get into UK Vertigo Swirls until a few years ago and by then, they were already nutty money (and not just the Black Sabbaths which are some of the most common Swirls, b/c those actually sold the most). Ditto, some of the more obscure Italian or German prog stuff. Just wasn’t on my radar in the mid-’70s.

i just got back from the rock and swap in frisco,there were originals there for 600bks (used)..ya right.
Ironically I scored a gang buster of stuff for under 20bks and and alot of scores were 3 bks these were all originals and uk press,couple japaneese too.

It's a scam for young audio fools.I tell them all the time to save their 30.00 or 40.00 bucks and search out the original pressings.The search is where the fun and education happens.

I miss my nakamichi dragon . I had a tandberg reel to reel too back in the 80-90s .. We were all tapers on grateful dead tour . Lol daze .. Beta was big too Then we switched to the Nomads if you remember. Some of the first hard drives .i litterally gave away atleast 2500 cassettes  to a freind he was flipping that was 92 maybe .
         As for vinyl any half speed i would rather just pop a cd in just not worth it . Any digital sounding vinyl with pops is useless .. I have a decent dig section . Viynl trumps it everytime when the recording is good pops or not just opens up like nothing else

A strange as it might seem digitally remastered cassettes actually sound very good, even spectacular. Great dynamic range, low noise and that analog sound. Examples, ACDC You Want Blood You got It (live) and Miles Davis Kind of Blue.

When it comes to vinyl avoid remasters. They are digitised analogue, so rather bizarrely you are making ur Anologue rig play digital. A bit like buying a diesel and trying to run it on petrol. Buy them as a last resort. Buy a second hand record - there are many people selling them

I stopped buying reissued vinyl.It's a gamble that almost never is worth it.And you can't return a piece of lousy sounding new vinyl for a refund most of the time.Last one for me was Zappa's Hot Rats.I go for original pressings and when affordable promo radio station DJ originals.

Led zeppelin CDs and downloads from dynamic range database. Vinyl Zeppelin is very good as far as dynamic range goes. It’s the digital reissues are the problem. Early Zeppelin CDs from 80s and early 90s are OK, very good dynamic range wise. Of course dynamic range isn't everything. But it's a lot IMO.

The three numbers represent Average, lowest, highest dynamic range measured on the recording.

Good dynamic range starts at the number 14. Numbers 8 and 9 and lower are poor. 10-13 are just OK (transitional)

Led Zeppelin Mothership (Remastered) [MFiT] i 2015 09 08 11 lossy Download
Led Zeppelin Mothership - 2 CD - disc : 1 i 2007 07 06 08 lossless Unknown
Led Zeppelin Mothership - 2 CD - disc : 2 i 2007 08 06 09 lossless Unknown


Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin I i 1994 10 09 11 lossless CD
Led Zeppelin Houses of the Holy i1994 12 11 13 lossy CD
Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin IV i 1994 10 09 11 lossy CD
Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin III i 1994 11 09 13 lossy CD
Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin II i 1994 11 10 13 lossy CD

Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin IV i 1984 12 11 13 lossless CD

Physical Graffiti [Disc 2] i 1990 12 11 13 lossless CD
Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti [Disc 1] i 1990 13 12 15 lossless CD
Led Zeppelin Presence 1990 13 12 14 lossless CD

Vinyl examples

Led Zeppelin Houses of the Holy 1973 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl
Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti 1975 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl
Led Zeppelin Presence i 2006 14 13 15 lossless Vinyl


Geoff Kait
machina dynamica

ehtoo- That has been my experience re the EQ of Japanese pressings of rock music generally, but sometimes it is either not the case, or the EQ works in combination with the nature of the recording so the end result is not bad, e.g. LZ1 japanese pressing I mentioned. Pretty much every copy is murky, many have no bass, the Piros cut pressed at Monarch is probably one of the best I’ve heard, but that Japanese cut is really strong too. For the odd ball prog stuff, the King records and Seven Seas imprint have been good as well, but in almost all cases, the original pressings are so expensive, I have not compared them. (e.g.. Museo Rosenbach -Zarathustra).

Do you not find the Japanese pressings a little bright? The JVC Jazz records are good but, the Odeon red vinyl Beatles stuff is a little tizzy for my licking. I still listen to them but, prefer the original UK pressings for the lads. (the mono box is great too).

I've found Zepplin to be pretty good, as well as, dire straits, Bob Marley, pink floyd, yes, Paul McCartney  and grateful dead.

zepplins have straight up sucked .if i play them thru the bose wave in the kitchen there ok :)

In the digital world there is no escaping the heavy hand of the modern remastering engineer. Not only do we have to endure the humiliation of classic albums being aggressively compressed but even new CD releases are getting the strangulation technique. The last few releases by the Stones, Dylan, Zeppelin? Compressed, compressed, compressed. As if that isn't enough now a lot of SACDs, Blu Ray, even the SHM Japanese remasters are showing up dead on arrival. Even Hi Res downloads. OMG!

I agree that the vinyl itself on Japanese pressings is usually far better than records made in most other countries. Quiet, typically well made. (That old JVC compound used by the 'old' MoFi was one of the best!)  I'm not as sanguine about the sonics though- I think you have to compare pressing to pressing. I'm willing to put up with a slightly less quiet surface (not ticks, pops or groove chew, but a little more life in some of the old UK, US or German or Italian pressings along with a higher noise floor). Some of the Japanese pressings are outstanding though, on both fronts (good vinyl quality and good sonics). I got turned on to a 3d press of LZ1 from Japan- not a great recording to begin with, and it is now one of my favorites, along with the US Monarch Piros remaster done in 1974. This, based on a comparison of US and UK firsts, including both Presswell and Monarch, Classic 33 and 45, among many others. Someone here (can't remember if this thread or another) mentioned a particular Japanese pressing of Carole King's Tapestry, a great record that is sonically compromised. I found the specific copy mentioned, and played it last night- to my ears, it  was better than the ORG 45, but was surprised to find that an older 33 Classic sounded better than either. None are truly audiophile quality, but the music is so great, it is worth searching for a good sounding copy. I have been buying certain old Japanese pressings of obscure prog rock albums  b/c the original pressings are  now nutty money. For many of those, I have not had access to the original to make a comparison, but at least the Japanese pressings are high quality, are not from questionable sources and give me the music without spending a banker's ransom on one record. Again, I think it is pretty much record by record, and not a blanket -these are best- proposition. But, I have no issue with your statement, shadorne, re vinyl and pressing quality of the japanese records. 

I have highest success rate with Japanese vinyl. I bought it in the 80's because regular vinyl sounded terrible and I am buying only Japanese again for that vintage sound (less compression than on remastered digital) and to catch rare stuff. Japanese quality is consistently the best for vinyl, IMHO.

The majority of reissues these days are sourced from digital or CD where compression rules. You mentioned the remastered Bowie from tape was good. I think you have your answer. This is Michael Fremer's plaint as most companies refuse to indicate the source for the remaster and has urged (pestered) them to do so.

Additionally, most remasters attenuate the bass to appeal to current tastes and also, in the mind of the engineers, correct what was originally minimized due to playback limitations. Most record players couldn't handle strident bass reproduction 50's through 70's as the cartridges available had difficulty in tracking the record. Modern carts can handle it but, I do agree with you that it perhaps is boosted too much in some instances It comes off as tubby, not clean. 

My problem with most remasters is the high incidence of warpage. Very few have not shown signs of this affliction. Some companies are certainly better than others - QRP comes to mind.

Generally, I seek out original pressings as a rule or new remasters that boast as being mastered from the original tapes.

Oleschool, you have our support.
Here is a wild idea. If you can afford it why don't you make a short trip to Japan to get some of the Japanese pressings that you lost? Couple of hundreds of your favourite albums in NM condition might be waiting for you over there. Japan is also an interesting country to visit, I heard.

whart \
 thanks i'm ok its been awhile lol...I do have a dig front end cambridge trans and bel canto .I also have probly . 1/2 gi in a hardrive but its a far cry from spinning vinyl on my vpi ... also i havnt updated my dang profile i should someday lol and maybe take a pic its pretty decent imo ..after reading about gon members 150k systems it not in that league though

ole- I feel bad, reading what happened to you, what a nightmare. Here's a thought, and don't take this the wrong way. I don't know how old you are, but trying to replace these things at this point may just be a bitter process- used record buying is all over the lot and you are carrying some baggage. I don't know what your system is--sorry, I didn't check your profile here if you have one-- but if that were to happen to me- god forbid, I'm not sure I'd try and replace it at this point in my life. I'd get up on some good digital front end/computer based audio, and just sit back and pull (legal) streams and downloads- yeah, I'm sure they have mastering issues too, but I suspect that a lot of improvement has gone into digital, not only on the playback side, but on the production side. I say this as somebody with rooms fill with records and no digital player in my main system, but this is eventually where it is headed, except for us luddites, diehards and hair shirt audio geeks. I guess my point is not to carry this cross, because it isn't going to make you happier. And the key, to me, is to enjoy this stuff. Otherwise, why bother? I've gone through periods where I put everything on ice- had no time or energy to deal w/ it. Cut yourself a break. And good luck. 

bill hart

I enjoy the input from everyone,although i am really trying to replace an irreplacable collection.I bought 90% of my jap pressings brand new and i mean hundred and hundred and hundreds and huuuundreds or german pressings ..Some of the early originals masters I had  Rush permanant waves was one i liked .The bulk of my collection aside form jazz was progressive rock.These albums are 30-75 plus bks used on discdogs etc.I am just growing tired of ordering a used lp paying to ship it and be disapointed again and again .I am crushing my nitty gritty lol.So I have been buying 180 g feel nice lol but almost not all are sh&tty.As for cd i had probly 5-7ooo all smoke damaged the smoke litterally rolled around in the holes of the jewel leaving a rezin much like my old pipe in high school lol.I tried everything i mean everything .Believe it or not bong cleaner minus the salt worked best.but 75% are just wasted .lps were in another room they were evaporated probly 2000. I,m sure i lost over 125k in music.Insurance would not cover it because i did not have any pics or documents. The equipment was wasted cj, maggies 3a , sunfires linn lp12 ,nakamichi reel luxman etc etc lol..or cry ...I am just trying to slowly get the bad taste out of my mouth 8yrs later and try to rebuild some of my collection again..Thanks to all

One thing to mention a Vacuum tube such as Transcendance  Masterpiece 300B preamp 
Makes all vinyl and cds eound better incredible value,
Also For digital Schiit Audio Their top of the Line for $2400,
If that is too much thier $1300 Multibit  Gungnir dac which I just had upgraded 
Is Incredibly good. Cds you thought you  knew are  more listenable better on every level it took  them 2 years to develop the  Analog devises Ladder dac chip sets . Mike Moffett ,no one puts out better digital unless you have big $$ bucks.
2 solid tips that are Guaranteed winners.

Thanks Bill. I will keep my eye out for one. 

(I'm blakep over at the Hoffman forum ;)  )

"Why do I keep torturing myself with remasters?"

You support every cause  :)

hdm- yep, the RE-1 is an Artisan, the RE-2 looks like a Winchester. The labels are a bit different too--no Warner in a bubble on the inner rim of the label circumference writing of the RE-1, which also has the words 'STEREO' in block print at 6 o' clock on the label. (I have several different records from Reprise from this era with the STEREO marking as described that all sound really good, never checked to see if that is because they are all Artisans- i think that style label was only used briefly). The RE-1 is punchier sounding than the RE-2. 

Bill: Is your after the Gold Rush an Artisan? Have been looking but I've never seen one in my travels here in Canada but do have a friend with an Artisan copy and it really does sound fabulous and quite a bit better than other early/earlier pressings which I've heard. 

Two best remasters on cd that I heard were original MFSL 'Inner Mounting Flame' by Mahavishnu Orchestra and JVC XRCD Getz/Gilberto. I am sure there are many more especially Japanese. That MFSL is in fact the most analog-like sounding cd I ever heard, actually better in most aspects than original American LP pressed on recycled vinyl. If they could manage one recording, most or all recordings could be managed as well. And I am quite certain there are still people in the know who know how to do it. But almost everything is mass-market now, often even so-called high end. Who wants to go extra mile let alone two? 

I was born in 1960, so I was buying records when I was a kid. The whole industry has changed so much over time! I had 45s just to hear your favorites; gave you the essence of the song. The "HiFi" industry was growing and getting better too. Quality control was very much a problem then? Mastering, Pressing, Virgin/recyle vinyl all of that was very subjective? I loved Japanese imports starting about 1980. I loved the Original Master MFSL pressing mid to late 70s. I love the Brand new Beatles Mono "Remaster" same as New "Pet Sounds" 200 gram stereo. IMHO; Early on, I believe that the original mix was to have LP records sound good. When CDs came out they were "Remastered" for CDs to sound good?? Now you have two schools of "Remastering". Different tools, different ears and different accountants are all involved with "Remastering" now? I try everything and make my own evaluations. I have spent a lot of time, effort and money in finding THE record I want to keep for my personal collection. Forums like this are helpful. There just seems to be no set standard to insure you get a record that is truly great? That has always been the Record seeking problem; in my quest for vinyl bliss in the sweet spot on my couch.

Bitches Brew by Miles Davis reissue from Mo-Fi is no good. I have original American 2 eye Columbia and original Japanese. You can't compare. Besides, vinyl itself looks like it's hundred years old.
Comparing original American and Japanese, Japanese is quieter and more refined, American is somewhat more raw. Overall dynamics is about equal. I like them both, they just sound a little different.

dgarretson: I think you'll be hard-pressed to make any meaningful distinctions without very specific information about the particular copies involved. A "reissue" could mean a remaster, but leaving that aside, it also includes different lacquers, pressing plants, vinyl formulations, apart from different source material -tape copies- depending on the country of origin and the country of pressing. And country of origin- band or mastering? I have records with precisely the same information in the deadwax that I know are earlier and sound better than later copies (within the same year) but that is not always the case. At the extreme, this takes you down the path of copy to copy variations, but without going that far into the weeds, is a certain lacquer number better than another even though cut at the same time- which leads to pressing plant variations. I know of no holistic way to do this on a general rule basis. There are "known" good cuts for specific rock records that are pretty easy to find with a search where there is some consensus on the sound. Otherwise, you are left with doing it yourself or relying on reviews. One last example in this vein- the early Sabbath on UK Vertigo is not only entirely different than the US pressings, but even when the same metal parts were used for later pressings when Sabbath changed labels from Vertigo to WWA, the WWAs- while bargains and "good" don't have the same immediacy as the Vertigos. On the other hand, my Neil Young "After the Gold Rush" is an RE-1. As I understand it, that's a re-cut, but it is a very early copy and usually the one I prefer. I could go on, but you get the point.....

I’ve been positively impressed by every recent MoFi reissue relative to good original pressings (Grateful Dead, Dylan, Miles Davis). Also Analog Productions(The Doors, Miles Davis mono box), and Neil Young, Peter Gabriel, and Pink Floyd archive series. The 45RPM ones can be spectacular. Other reissues have been hit or miss. SQ can be fine but is often hobbled by pressing defects(I like the Faces/Small Faces box except for one horrible white pock like acne on my favorite Ronnie Lane song.) With respect to comments above, is there a difference of opinion regarding reissues vs. remasters?

I whole heartedly agree with the above comments. I had to learn this myself in 2000 when I went back to analog in a big way - never junked my vinyl - just slowed down buying it.

All those low priced old pressings were stocking the shelves in record stores and I went for the "better" remaster.

Sorry to hear on your fire, I also have an extensive Japanese and original UK pressing vinyl collection from the late seventies so Your lost must have been huge

i buy some great reissues on jazz and very few in the pop/rock medium. They sound compressed, closed in, cymbal decay unnatural. Many have digital "enhancements". Who are these engineers putting out this crap.

you can slowly accumulate this via online - - still some giving away "batches for a few bucks" offers or go quality over quantity.  a good recording machine goes a long way

perhaps the occasional weekend trip up to Portland or down to Frisco will help fill the coffers.

there are some good remasters and you will hear about them here on SH. Be wary though, plenty of cheerleader people toting a crap sandwich release

I find the best sounding LP's are from the 50's/60's....RCA, DG, Capital, Mercury, etc.  

Check some Fremer articles on Analog Planet that address this issue. He calls out labels that only do all-analog remaster/represses and some of the charlatans. 
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/reissue-labels-avoid-and-some-best-proceed-caution#gHK6bJ684z2Bo...

The best ones I'm getting these days are the 200g ones from Analogue Productions. All my Speakers Corner LPs are great too, including solo cello, large scale orchestra, Count Basie, Johnny Hartman and John Coltrane, and my ORGs are great too. 

Maybe I'm lucky or the higher number of reissues of pop and rock results in a larger number of bad ones.

Oleschool,
I too have had terrible luck with remasters, SHM-SACDs, and almost everything MoFi.  They are all soft, EQ'd, compressed, based up, etc. very disappointed in the difficulty of finding "the right" as in best, version of an album.  Argh!  At least it's Friday.  :-)

Thats was the point, remasters was to make them brighter; louder and powerful to the extend of over exaggeration..
Try Japanese remasters or stick to the priginal !

Analogue Productions & Speakers Corner are quality reissues.  other wise, stick to originals or at the very least, reissues by the same company that pressed the original (though that is a bit risky).  Sometimes you have no choice on hard to find original from the 50s or 60s, let alone trying to find some in Near Mint condition.