Why do all audio forums on the internet seem "dead" ?

Jayant, extremely, in my case! Extremely Hi-Fi.

Happy Listening!

Laughing...
several of you guys around here are "high".

geoffkait, 3k is one man's preamp, another's total mid-fi budget, and yet another's mere upgrade, wouldn't you say?

"P.S. I think headphone use is going to give us an entire generation of premature deafness"

That will happen only if you listen too loud and too long.  Some people are prone to listening at high volume (whether speakers or phones are in play).  It's not the only way to listen.  Club levels are not always musical and are not always safe so don't try to reproduce that sound.

Personally, I've noticed a loss of interest (in music/audio) when dwelling in the sober, utilitarian, "survival brain" mode of existence. I find it hard to justify spending time to "just listen" to music (I do enjoy music in the background when doing other things).
Personally, I'm looking forward to returning to "Neverland" (THCville) where there is always enough time and always a fresh perspective.
I wish this were a natural function (downshifting your mind) but, try as I may, is only (easily and safely) possible via THC.
I've been "away" for over 35 years but will resume as soon as it's legal.
Can't wait to hear my system under the "right circumstances"!

P.S. I think headphone use is going to give us an entire generation of premature deafness.

Mapman, you have how many posts?! Whaaaat? That's priceless!

cheers

$3000 for a preamp? You really think that’s an exorbitant price? Geez, that how much high end preamps like the Berning preamp were when I first got into high end audio. And that was 35 years ago. Hel-loo! Wake up and smell the coffee! You know, if you're a skier and you're used to skiing all the cheap resorts, you know the ones I'm taking about, Hey, you really owe it to yourself to ski Aspen at least once in your life. 

For those interested in learning useful things about good sound. I'd recommend pretty much ignoring posts by geoffkait better known as mister machina dynamica.  

I think devil boy is on to something.  

playdough wrote,

"I’m high on life! I thought the Sony Walkman reference was a joke! If you enjoy the audiophile hobby the many issues you mentioned...RFI-fuses-room acoustics ect. are viewed as a challenge not an obsession or chore. Enjoy the peace and harmony of your Walkman!"

whether tis nobler in the mind yadda yadda the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or by opposing end them? The challenges - as you call them and apparently slough off - are worthy of great effort and cost as they influence, no control, the sound. So, by going to a Sony Walkman I dealt with the physical and electrical constraints naturally imposed by vibration, magnetic fields, room acoustics, house AC power, electrical ground, cabling by eliminating them from the equation. Their elimination is a natural consequence of going to low power with battery supply. The best way to solve a set of simultaneous equations is to reduce the number of unknowns. If one prefers to ignore or minimize these issues it's no skin off my nose.

Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory

I'm high on life! I thought the Sony Walkman reference was a joke! If you enjoy the audiophile hobby the many issues you mentioned...RFI-fuses-room acoustics ect. are viewed as a challenge not an obsession or chore. Enjoy the peace and harmony of your Walkman!

Daygrow wrote,

"Geoffkait- Just because your tired/worn out with "important" issues that determine sound quality is irrelevant. Unless your trying to be funny, many of us enjoy the journey regardless of the cost or mistakes! Your post reminds me to blast "School's Out"!!!"

Huh?  Are you high?

Geoffkait- Just because your tired/worn out with "important" issues that determine sound quality is irrelevant. Unless your trying to be funny, many of us enjoy the journey regardless of the cost or mistakes! Your post reminds me to blast "School's Out"!!!

I too have noticed a big drop off on Audiogon discussions and quite frankly advertised items don't sell as fast as a few years back.

As audiophiles continue to stove pipe their systems and as the high end shifts into high gear at least as far as prices go I've dumped my perfectly fine Sennheiser 600/Woo Audio All-tube Headphone amp/Hyper modded Oppo 103 for the peace and harmony of a vintage Sony Walkman CD player with vintage Sony Ultralight headphones.  No more obsessing about house AC, power cords, speaker cables, EMI/RFI, magnetic fields, room acoustics, big honking transformer issues, circuit boards rattling around, interconnects, wall outlets, fuses, grounding issues. No more teacher's dirty looks.

New ideas about what? $1000 on headphones is either too much or too little, what a waist of money. The best value is tuned reel to reel deck connected to, say, vintage Rowland electronics, playing through a number of good vintage speakers. Those kids should come over here and learn something. Especially before spending big.

I can tell you the audiophile market is dead. Resale value is non-existent.

Pro audio market is doing much better though.

I think there is more audiophiles than ever. Just not how we traditionally think of them. Most of the newer generations are starting out with headphones. Then they start moving up from there. You can get world class sound from headphones that sell for $1000. And a lot of people, even young people are buying them. You get better sound from them than any of us probably got from any of our systems after 20 years of us trying when we first started. If you follow their posts on headfi or computer audiophile and places like that you’ll see they are actually very deep and technical about it. Far more than people on here actually. Impressively so with some of them. They take it very very serious. I actually enjoy hanging out there more because of it. They are very methodical with their testing and observations. As they get more money they move up to very expensive gear, but it has to be worth it to them. I think they are more conscience of value.

A lot are young. Or younger than the old guys on here. A lot don’t even own their own house or have a place big enough to put a huge system. Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t want one. So a small system has to do for now. But they do yearn for more and eventually as they get bigger places and more money I see them break out and put together some amazing systems. I think better than most peoples systems on here. Especially dollar for dollar. They seem far more open to new ideas too and discovering them with scientific accuracy, sometimes it’s scary how much so. To much we get the opposite here with old guys stuck in their ways and stubborn, not able to comprehend or open to new ideas. It’s a huge turn off.

I’ve also found that actual product designers seem to frequent those sites and actually talk with people, they all hang out together and chat. Come up with new ideas, share their knowledge. That’s pretty encouraging. Those same people seem to avoid this place for the most part. I can kind of understand why. Some of those guys are the same people that designed and revolutionized our very same products we bought decades ago. And there they are talking with the younger generation about new advancements, and they are keeping up better than most here. It’s impressive. Make no mistake they are out there. spread out between different forums. A lot far more active forums than here. Go surf around and find them and mingle with them. I think we can all learn a lot from them believe it or not. I know I have been.

the poster awhile back who made the headphones comment was onto something... you cant take a multi thousand $$$$$ system with you.
and headphone sound "good enough" for the $$ spent

younger people these days pretty much want EVERYTHING PORTABLE and that will play, watch, and fit in THEiR "phone" and the car that their mommy drives them around in.

honestly, they really are pretty much entitled spoiled brats. That is what modern politically correct society has let them become

As a female getting back into audiophile, I can say one thing...people need to play and instrument or sing, need to realize what music sounds like without a bunch of electronics getting in the way. I am getting back into it because it sounds better, but only because I grew up listening and playing violin, piano, accompanying the local choir.  And if I listened to the critics rather than to my music, I would not have bought my PONO, and learned about FLAC files.  

Forums need to have some basic language skills and translation for the newbies.  (RMCF googles as Rocky Mountain Chocolate Factory.)  I can understand ESS dac technology on the ESS website, can understand things on Ayre web site, a lecture by a Mr. Foote on stereo speaker science, but not understand forum sites, where there is no paraphrasing of technical jargon or acronyms, in other words: Say something in a different way based on the education and skills of the person asking the question, to help with understanding. Refusing to answer a newbie question because the forum FAQs are not updated, difficult to navigate, or all in jargon, is not helpful to promote new members.  I have found the only way to get an answer in the forum is to directly message someone, who seems to have written an intelligent answer, thanking him or her for that answer, and asking something based on what they wrote.  That does work well.  

Salepeople need to sell me what I ask for, rather than try to get me to purchase the latest thing, (I am finding out everyone wants to sell me streaming, when I want a DAC) or a fully loaded proprietary system, so I will not have to worry (my cute little head?) about upgrades to the computer systems.  (I did bring in my own laptop, with FLAC files, JRiver, etc )  If I, semi-retired, near an urban area with good audiophile stores, and 7 years post-grad education in the sciences, have problems navigating the forums and the sales hype, one can only imagine what the average male or female is going through.  

I think audiophiles can't see the forest for the trees. We are constantly exposed to exorbitant prices for equipment. As a result, we've become so desensitized that we don't question the price on a $3,000 preamp, but instead scheme on getting the funds for it.

What would your first reaction be if your wife came home with a $3,000 fur coat?

More and more audiophiles are "waking up" having become dissenchated with the whole industry, hence the absence of interest in forums.

Just my 2 cents. 

OMG...I'd hate to be and have 'the last word' on this subject...

The fire dies if not tended.  Music will continue...the 'appreciation' of it will evolve, as it always has.  There will be a future, the shape of which we can only guess at, but that evolution is moving out of our hands.  This is as it has always been, will always be, and is natural and normal.  But there will always be those that will care.  Diminished in numbers, but their involvement will be as ours.

Fan the flames when you can.  One never knows...as usual. *S*

Y'all are 'going negative'...stop it.  Things change...not always for what one may consider better, but if you look hard enough there are still things occurring that stand as 'bright spots in the gloom'.  LP's are 'trending'...there's niches out there that give me some hope that some aspects of 'our hobby' will continue.  Perhaps not as we would like...perhaps in a means we can't predict or appreciate, but as long as the music plays, there will be those who care enough to take the time and make the effort.

Y'all are starting to sound like people I'd rather not hang out with.

Go play something LOUD.  Restore some faith within.  Don't go quietly.

Yeah, younger generation are becoming kind of The Borg, collective being from Star Trek: The Next Generation. They wish to consume and assimilate everything in their path to "increase the quality of life".
Individuality is being eroded to the point of non-existing.
We, the people of the old ways, will resist as much as we can for as long as we can. We may lose but it is going to be a good fight.
Death to the digital. And to the cell phones along with computers. God help us all.

Honestly, I came to these to learn and the information is so saturated right now anything I need to know at this point has been discussed ad nauseum.

I listen to mostly vinyl and there are really no ground breaking developments in analog to generate sustained dialogue on the net. I check in every now and again but what is there?

Tidal/Pandora/spotify mobile device Bluetooth toys era what to go forums for?
I guess this plus many forums with a higher level of specificity, kill general forums.

Younger peoples attention spans have also decreased.  A friend of mine says he can never listen through a whole cd and prefers to just download a single song.  He says he usually doesn't listen to a whole song either and likes to jump from song to song. 

I teach high school and sometimes show Youtube videos at the end of a Friday.  After about a minute they always want me to switch to another video, all the while texting away.  I wish I could ban cell phones.

With this distracted generation, I can't see them developing any interest in an audio system where they actually have to sit and listen with attention to the music.  I blame cell phones which have become such an addiction in our society.

The younger generation spent its funds on computers. Here is an example of what happened when I brought a few college boys home to hear music on my system: They were absolutely amazed that it could sound so good. When one replied, "WOW! I'd like to hear how much better that sounds like from my iPhone", they all agreed.. I ran them off, but only after showing them the difference, to which they agreed, that the old stuff doesn't match up with new technology. They went back to the frat house to hear their much better systems, a one piece Bose and a TV soundbar.   

Well, I think is all related to the generation gap. My Grand parents were born with no electricity, My parent had electricity. I was raise in a lighted house with a TV and Radio....we would hear music before we could see it (or who was playing it) It was EAR before eyes...I heard Hendrix before seeing him....I didn't know he was black, played the guitar with wrong position...but I heard and knew something was goin on....same thing with Miles, Coltrane, Doors, Ornette etc....the music catch my ears....I would drive to NY and more often to Montreal (I'm Canadian) in the 70's to go hear, Bill Evans, Miles Davis, even Led Zeppelin, Dexter Gordon, Opera , Orchestral etc....buying a stereo was an extention of hearing from live to try to get same experience in the living room. That needed decipline in buying the right stuff and by accident I became what we call an audiophile. I have only change system 3 time in 40 years.... Linn-Meridian. LS3/5A....Linn- MusicalFIdelity- Spendor....Linn- Naim, Neat with Naim CD....I still have my vintage Linn ( updated) which plays 98% of my music as I have mostly vinyl....keeping the gear in order like cleaning connector, washing records, ajusting the Linn once in a while, replacing worn phono cartridge....every step made a difference in sound and I have kept a reference from live venues I have attended...Heard Dexter at the Village Gate and that blew my mind....the sound was so ....well....real,,,,could never come close to that in my living room....but it's a good reference...Have you even heard Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Ron Carter live in a trio setting in a small jazz venue?

Back to the generation gap.....today this generation sees before hearing....Lady Gaga, Amy Winehouse, altough all very talented...we know who is the boyfriend , where and how they dress, what they do, where they go, even worst with artist like Beiber and compagny....It all in the EYES and not the EARS....it is not based on music first....the interest first is the lifestyle seen thought the images of digital files with music as a filler....My generation it was the other way around....so yes there is less interest in audiophile....activities will lessen as we are a getting older...the newer generation don't have to go throught what we did to get to the music....it's all supported with the images first to stimulate all senses....amazing little disposable machines...

Some excellent insights in the above posts. If I had to summarize, I’d say that the primary cause is that the middle-class was gutted during the last (2008) economic crisis, and continue to struggle. So the amount of time and disposable income available to ’regular’ audiophiles has been dwindling for years. As a related aside, I am certain that this dynamic will become worse, as there is another major crisis unfolding as I write this.

Secondarily, there are plenty of people, like myself, who are actively engaged with forums while building or tweaking systems, but only occasional participants once those processes end. While I do enjoy both, I invariably reach a stage at which I see no purpose in further tweaking, and then spend years of satisfaction with a system.

As a fifty-something man with a broad appreciation for vintage (I have a serious vintage watch collection), I do enjoy owning some vintage components as well. I currently have an Accuphase E-303 integrated amp, and while it is obviously not as good as my first generation Jeff Rowland Concentra, it is a superb machine, and with good associated gear, produces really excellent sound.

Could it be Home Theater ..?

I notice in recent years many Stereo shows that come to NYC put more emphasis on 5.1 HT than two channel stereo...
A lot of guys on my job and those who have retired packed up their equipment or sold it to down size just for a HT receiver ...
Today i look in movie theaters and sometimes while the movie is playing there's only one person sitting in the place , figure that out... I remember when the movie theaters use to be packed but today BLU-RAY and DVD are killing the old neighborhood Cinemas ...
While good Stereo equipment is very expensive and guys are down sizing from houses to apartments in their retirement years .. Top notch Stereo equipment is out of reach for most of us and this is another reason why "millions of dollars" are going into the HT market .. Sit back and watch the amount of money Disney will make on Star Wars when the Blu Ray DVD hits the stores ...     

I recently fired up my McIntosh gear that had been in storage for 10 years, and started the process of figuring out how to feed my digital content to it and enjoy the sound.  As a result I'm more active than ever, and feel re-invigorated regarding high end two channel audio as a hobby. Interestingly at 61 years old, I'm not chasing vinyl nostalgia, but high fidelity digital audio, and it's convenience.

And loving it!

I think audio had it's golden generation in the 80's before the internet.  All my friends (in their late teens and twenties) had stereo systems and listened to them regularly.  There wasn't the distraction of the internet, cell phones or video games (not many anyways).  I used to subscribe to a few stereo magazines (Stereo Review, Hi-Fi Magazine, Audio Ideas Guide) and lusted over the more expensive gear.  I also used to regularly visit the stereo stores and listen to the better components.  As a teacher I do not see any of my students being interested in audio.  They are interested in music but seem satisfied with the squeeky thin sound of earbuds.  They don't  even seem curious to hear better reproduction.

Now that I am older I have bought some of the vintage gear that I lusted over when I was young and have refurbished them to perform at or better than new.  I also have all the lp's that I bought over the years along with cd's and I am now getting into digital files.  I am not looking at much that is new except for digital as I see advancements there.  Vintage gear such as early Jeff Rowland, Bedini, Ray Lumley, Beard and Acoustat with upgraded or newer parts sound wonderful and are more than competitive with new.  And at 1/5 the price.  I have spent on newer cables, though.

So I am not as actively seeking to upgrade my system as I have in the past as I think I am at a level now that I can truly enjoy the music.  The itch to upgrade has mostly gone ...

There does seem to be an increase in interest in lp's, hopefully it will become more than a fad.  This may save the hobby if some of them get infected with the audio bug.

AudioAficionado
Audio Asylum
Audio Circle
What's Best Forum
Audiokarma
AVS Forums
Steve Hoffman Music Forums
Head-Fi
diyAudio
USAudiomart Forums

Just to name a few, and these don't include any social media sites.

I do think general social media, non-audio related, also has something to do with traffic slowing down.
Audiophiles are a dying breed, like it or not. Even those left have more and more distractions pulling at their free time.

Many of us left are in our 50's, 60's, and older, still recall when audio had a very central place in our lives. Before social media, Netflix, cable TV and VCRs. There used to just be audio and a couple of TV channels to compete with free time. It seems like now we have less free time, and more distractions fighting for the little free time we have.

                        !!BIRTH OF AN AUDIOPHILE!!

Good day Gentleman!
let me start of by saying that "I am now an audiophile!"
(applause applause) thank you!

I am a 43 y.o. guy and prior to 4 years ago, "happy" with my then "COOL" 5.1 Denon system with OLD Polk monitor 7's GIVEN to me. and a small DefTec sub!

My new-at-the-time partner (another audiophile) introduced me to "higher end" audio via desktop PC/ mac mini system.
He then took me to one of the very few "high-end" stores in our area. The owner, actually a female!!! was sooo nice and helpful. She actually listened to what I like and how i like to listen and my living room. Basically giving me an "audio interview" what I liked / didn't like about my current setup at the time.

AAAAnnnyywayyzz, after looking around the store and listening to many WONDERFUL things over the course of 3 days.
She actually offered to send me home with what she and another very helpful employee (not a salesman) about 8k in Simaudio/ Focal gear with all the wires, plugs, interconnects ect ect. she just started "throwing" things to me to take home and demo to see how I liked it in my house. 

Needless to say, I DID NOT RETURN IT!!, I made several modest payments, (at 10% off) no interest or charges.
anyway, a few years later and many upgrades later, I am in my system for more $$$$$ that I care to admit, and wouldn't tell anyone how much i have wrapped up in such a depreciating "asset"
it's embarrasing I must admit!
(My current setup is in my profile thing)

as for the future, I am "good for now" as to upgrade at this point would be diminishing returns as I live life by a "bang for the buck" mentality.

Now, I don't know if I would be considered "old" by the age of average audiophiles.. BUT most of my friends are younger thAn (not thEn) me.
Neither them, my family, or people I work with have any interest in music or quality beyond streaming or the radio. They do like hearing music through mine but just don't seem to care, at least not enough to explore it further. 

Like another poster said, it all seems to be "trending" toward the I I I me me me pod, phone I-thing.
I do believe digital media IS the future like it or not.
sound quality is something that "would be cool" but not for the cost of equipment that can deliver the goods..  together with the lack of content/ media that is even recorded in high res in the first place!
I am not talking about Jazz, or classical, or music that uses "real" instruments.

The sad lack of high res in pop, dance, rock, EDM, electronica, and that type of music is what most younger people seem to prefer.
Digital audio can only be reproduced "so digitally"...
(sorry if I'm not explaining what i mean to well...) I don't think you can make digital music sound any better than it was made originally.

** LOOK MA! PARAGRAPHS!** :)

On a side note, I am noticing that young people are not driving or buying cars either soo many don't even have a driver license!!
and men are being driven around by there wives/ girlfriends like their mothers ..

So, yes I believe from what I have seen and experienced that audiophiles, at least to the level that most of us are on here is definantly on the way down and changing to more convienient/ cheaper/ free way of listening while doing other things...

Wow! that's allot of typing for me! Hopefully I made some sense and the meaning of what i was trying to say is there.. 
I would be curious of what the age spread of the people here are...
and whats with the lack of female audiophiles of ANY AGE??
they even have superior hearing to men!... HMMPF!!!
good day!
M.

Great observation as to audio traffic for some sites. I frequent AudioAficionado.org and over the past few years the experience has been very positive to the point where a group of us were together last fall and plan to do so again this summer. The site is more like a family. I love the site and suggest it for being a very positive and caring experience. The postings are robust and we share great information and support newbies. Positive people with a good general attitude is very welcome.

I am sure there are other Audiophile-based discussion groups around the web, especially, social media outlets like facebook, twitter...etc.

Happy Listening!

Check out the Facebook group Audiophiles on a Budget.

Maybe there's a very simple reason for the apparent decrease in active "audiophile forum participation."  Our lives are a lot busier now, and we are using our computers and other "devices" (iPhones, iPads, Kindles, etc.) for far more activities than we were even a few years ago. So, .... when we finally have free time and want to relax, we're probably listening to music instead of hammering away on our computer keyboards.  That's what's been happening with me.  With so much daily "computer related activity," I'm finding myself spending my treasured free time listening to music, and not spending anywhere as much time on Audiogon as I used to.

If there is less life in audio forums these days, it's because of the incessant close minded attacks and demands for "proof" when someone posts about improved sonics when trying out a new…anything.  

This forum doesn't have these hall monitors to the same level as many forums out there, but one such forum, Audioholics, is a shell of its former self.  

tomcy6, wouldn't do without 545+ pg. dissections of the latest pressings AND still like it here!

Happy Listening!

Uh, The Daily Audiophile is not a catch-all of audio forums.  It's simply a listing of recent articles published on the various web sites.  

tomcy6-

SH Forums is excellent for musical info, no doubt. Unfortunately, it is very heavily moderated ( read: communist), does not respect a difference of opinion and is easy to get "banned".  I hope to meet SH, in person, someday and give him a shift kick...

I really enjoy reading The Daily Audiophile webzine.
It is a wonderful catch-all of the more established forums.
Check it out!  Happy Listening!

I have one more observation which may be overly simplistic, but with the advent of the compact disc and digital audio, the quest for high-end sound from this VERY-convenient-to-use format was a huge stimulant
in the market.  I recall fierce competition to reduce "jitter" and other artifacts, not to mention a herculean effort to perfect the analog circuitry
as well (i.e. Levinson, Spectral, Meridian, etc.).  The endless comparisons to vinyl (are we there yet?) also caused an additional (and very necessary) wave of improvements in everything else, even wall outlets and the thickness
of power cables.  So now digital IS pretty darn good and truly enjoyable
to listen to, even for hours on end, and is still as easy as pie to get the music going without much if any physical effort.  You can even stream
music which is the ultimate couch-potato audiophile dream machine.
So i go back to my original argument that, while a $5,000 pair of speakers used to be SOTA, today even $50,000 may not be quite enough money to get the very best that's out there. Ditto for amps,
wire, etc.  And in the meanwhile, and BTW thanks to the HUGE improvement in the way CD's are recorded and manufactured, i am
(sorry to have to say this) SATISFIED- at least 95% anyway.  Can you blame me?  
   So when i see a gorgeous pair of speakers in an audio magazine for $90,000, i admire them for several minutes, read part of the review, and then give the issue to someone else to read.

I read the big two audio mags for 10+ years and then let them lapse. I've visited the big two fora for the last 10 years as well and find interest (my own) lagging as well. Been there done that in both cases. The freshness wears off, the same posters soldier on with, in may cases the same well worn agendas. The same handful of trolls keep popping up with the latest disingenuous topic of the day and the same crew of responders, oblivious to being played, it seems, chime in as if on cue.

10 years ago I might have logged on to tell you how my first adventure with full system cable cooking went (hooked everything back up yesterday after 100 hours on the Dharma). But now, I realize, I'll just as likely have to start defending myself from ridicule as much as sharing any insights. Don't get me wrong, I don't cringe in the corner in worry over internet reprisals. But why bother.

geoffkait, you could again, be on to something here. Doing a very quick, very non-scientific study of my local audio group, the most stalwart, hardcore of the 300+ mailing list would probably fit neatly between JA's and your #, yet closer to yours. And I would agree that the market hit (2008) and continuing hangover, have left this hobby to waste for too many very logical reasons. Sad, but true. And we may well be the last remanent. 

doing the garden, digging the weeds
who could ask for more?

Actually since there are relatively few new audiophiles, you know, what with the Walkman, iPod, iPad and iPhone generation and given the lack of interest and or means to pursue an (increasingly) expensive hobby in the midst of a raging recession/depression, actually a series of them, I would opine the real average age of audiophiles doesn’t obey the Atkinson formula and to be around 64.

I could be handy, mending a fuse
When your lights have gone
You can knit a sweater by the fireside