I had a vpi 16.5 and currently have a nitty gritty,when i wrap up a couple loose ends with my setup I will certainly be looking to step up.I look at it like this ,even when I have a cleaned lp and grab it out I instantly walk towards my cleaner out of habit .It becomes just part of the steps to play vinyl to me ,clean,static etc.The better the vinyl is cleaned the less i hear and also the more i hear , so i believe a cleaner needs to reflect the caliber of what your trying to achieve.Just add it in to the front end cost,I could see having a couple grand in a cleaning setup personnally ..
Why are record cleaners so expensive?
Full disclosure: I have only the Spin-Clean record cleaner and a Hunt EDA brush to clean my vinyl, but as someone who's been in the digital side of audiophilia for decades, and as someone who knows how much gear can get in any dedicated hobby, I'm still curious as to why a high end vinyl cleaner can cost more than three grand.
I'm not disputing the price; after all, Smith said that something's worth whatever someone pays for it. Moreover, a high end record cleaner might be able to do things to vinyl that nothing else can. Still, paying three grand for an Audio Desk cleaner seems a bit out of reason. $3K can buy a good set of speakers; a hand-made fly-fishing rod based on your height and weight and arm length; two weeks at a Fijian resort for two; a custom-made suit from an Italian mill. So why is a glorified vacuum cleaner $3K?
Again, not flaming, just curious. Enlighten me?
s
I'm not disputing the price; after all, Smith said that something's worth whatever someone pays for it. Moreover, a high end record cleaner might be able to do things to vinyl that nothing else can. Still, paying three grand for an Audio Desk cleaner seems a bit out of reason. $3K can buy a good set of speakers; a hand-made fly-fishing rod based on your height and weight and arm length; two weeks at a Fijian resort for two; a custom-made suit from an Italian mill. So why is a glorified vacuum cleaner $3K?
Again, not flaming, just curious. Enlighten me?
s
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http://hifiheaven.net/shop/Ultra-Systems-A-Rings If this gives you guys any idea of the true mark-up, I can tell you that the electronics inside that machine probably cost less than 100 dollars. The 3 grand price point is because people will pay it. |
Hey All! I just bought a used Audio Desk Systeme for $2,300 off ebay and.... Wow. I've had a trusty Spin-Clean for years now and the Audio Desk is really amazing. I'm just now listening to an old '80's Jean Luc Ponty album that I recently bought at a garage sale. Looked OK, but I wasn't expecting great sonics. After its little micro-bubble scrubbing this used and abused record could now be used in demo rooms for mega-buck systems. I'm just blown away. I was thinking about buying a $3,000 cartridge soon (currently using a Clearaudio Maestro v.2 MM cart) and now.... forget it. My stereo has never sounded so sublime. I can't wait to start scouring the used record stores again! |
I have never owned a record cleaning machine. That said I play records nearly every day, and I clean them with a Audio Technica record brush and a record cleaning solution that I got out of the December 1996 Stereophile magazine. Over half of my Lp's are used, however after years of play none have any substantial clicks, ticks or pops. I clean at every play. Friends often remark at how silent they are. If anyone wants a copy of the formula just email me for the pdf. n at normansizemore dot com. Norman |
samzx12 Just for fun.. Please send me 5 of your favourite records. They don't need to be valuable, or audiophile pressings, just some that you know well and enjoy. I will double-clean them on my Audio Desk and Klaudio machines for FREE, you just pay postage.. That's $25 of free cleaning - If samzx12 doesn't want to take me up on the offer, then another thread contributor should please let me know if they would like to do it and report back to the thread! You could then decide from first-hand personal experience: 1 - Do expensive ultrasonic record cleaning machines make a real world difference that's worthwhile? 2 - Is the difference one that's easily heard on your system? 3 - Does that difference matter to you as much as spending money on upgrading equipment? Let me know! Dave |
I have always thought speaker wires and the rest of wires on the market tops at laughable prices . We purchased a Lori-craft one about seventeen years ago and love it for how effective it is on older used records . I forget what we payed for it but it was expensive. It has more then payed for itself over the years keeping our record collection some of it rare in prestine condition and sounding great , We also have a German made dish washer which cost a couple thousand dollars which has been doing a great job since 2008. I guess some might use a fifteen cent j cloth , soap and a sink of hot water for their dishes and laugh at someone spending any amount of money on a dishwasher , Yes , each to their own . |
Quote....... I have owned and used My Loricraft since the early eighties. Have a collection near 8000 lp's and have also cleaned literally thousands for some friends as well. Its well over 3 decades old and still going strong. So just WT% is your point above. |
Samzx12, I envy your moto location. I did the Blue Ridge & Diamondback loop last fall on the Ninja with full bags and the wife. On a side trip I followed three local long-beards with ladies on Harleys from the ridge down into a valley for gas. I was fairly impressed how well they ran their hogs through the twisties. It's a great place to learn.
The Smokies are some of the best roads in this part of the country. Thats hilarious you following the HD guys as unfortunately I have done that several times. Some of those guys can ride and some get majorly pissed off if you pass them. Let the faster riders through plain and simple. But like you I did follow this guy and his lady throught Deals Gap one pass and he could ride. The dude was dragging hard parts through every corner so I stayed back and enjoyed the show. When we stopped at the Overlook I went over and shook his hand and said great job throwing that heavy bike and dragging parts. He laughed and said thanks and we chatted it up for awhile. |
dgarretson: I’d be interested to know how many records you’ve been running in your Chinese made (40khz?) tank with the Vinyl Stack while still being able to get consistently good results on every side of every record? Are you using the "wider" spacers that Vinyl Stack offers as an option? Obviously you just got the Elma Sonic cleaner, but I am curious how "even" you find the cleaning with the Elma cleaner with varying number(s) of records loaded on the Vinyl Stack? If I was going to buy a tank cleaner to use then I’d probably also want to get the Elma P60H. I’ve been cleaning with Audio Desk and Klaudio machines for almost 3 years now, and have 2 of each machine, but tank cleaners are interesting since they would allow increased productivity, but I’d need to be sure that quality would be as good or better than the "single slot" machines. How are you drying your records? Much of what I’ve read online in the last 3 years indicates that 80khz would be useful, and apparently smaller cavitation bubbles are gentler on the records, all other things being equal. Another option would be a 60khz tank, I know Sonix makes one, and it may even be US made, so more than Chinese units, but less $ than the German made Elma. Thanks, Dave |
I took delivery today of an Elma P60H. So far cleaned just one record for 5 minutes at 37khz and 15 min at 80khz. The Elma removed loads of noise that the Chinese unit couldn't touch, and it's quiet enough to use in the room while listening to music. Its advanced features and quality build appear instrument grade. The other piece of this DIY ultrasonic cleaner is at: https://thevinylstack.com/ultrasonic-cleaning/ultra-sonic-spin-record-cleaning-kit/
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Minkwelder, Paisan, was it a fly yellow '98 monoposte? Terry9, Thanks for the encouragement to stretch for the Elma Sonic. I haven't heard that much praise of "german engineering" since the Volkswagen saga...we'll see how it goes. Samzx12, I envy your moto location. I did the Blue Ridge & Diamondback loop last fall on the Ninja with full bags and the wife. On a side trip I followed three local long-beards with ladies on Harleys from the ridge down into a valley for gas. I was fairly impressed how well they ran their hogs through the twisties. It's a great place to learn. |
Terry The question I was trying to raise is whether an ultrasonic cleaner achieves its results at the expense of loss of high frequency data. There have been some anecdotal reports of this result: cleaned records are silent, but lacking in presence. If true, this would be a serious problem, as it goes to a principal benefit of vinyl as a music source. One could test for this by measuring frequency response before and after ultrasonic cleaning. Steve |
Simao, great question you pose. If you have not been around agon that long you probably were not expecting an ambush! Some around here wear their opinions and stereo hobby on their shoulders. i have used a VPI 16.5 for years and it has worked wonders. Do I enjoy cleaning records....no, is it a little labor intensive....yes. But all things vinyl come with a little work but the end results are worth it for me. And I agree, memories are way better than material objects! good listening. |
DG, you are going to LOVE that Elmasonic. Nothing like German precision, here as elsewhere. I clean for 12 minutes at 80 KH, more for the very dirty. Enjoy! Steve, it's very simple to test: clean a record the conventional way, dip it half into the US tank, cook it for an hour, rinse, dry, and play. The sound will change dramatically about every second. If you prefer the sound from the US side, you have your answer. This I have done - and the answer, to me, is obvious. |
I don't hear that voice. I do like vintage bikes, though. Gave up riding a few years ago. Mostly had Italian bikes, though I did have one Harley- a V-Rod, which was a great motor in search of a decent bike. The chassis flexed, the brakes didn't work very well (I was told that's typical for HD), so I installed Brembos on it and stripped it down to a bobber. It was actually a nice bike at cruising speeds, heavy, low, easy to ride, but not very nimble. If I were going to analogize the cleaning machines I have here to bikes, the Monks is almost like a Brough- dated in design, but still performs at the top tier. Only difference, it doesn't leak oil. :) |
Cleeds what I am saying spending that much on a cleaner is just nuts. But of course if you can afford a gazillion dollar cleaner and it makes you feel good then so be it but there has to a little voice in your head saying this is ridiculous and I have to not be of sound mind lol. :) Dgarretson cool bikes. One of my riding buddies has a Ninja 1000 but not with ABS. I have a Triumph Speed Triple. Before that it was a Honda CBR1000rr. Not sure where you live but I am in Lexington KY so not too far from the Smokies :) |
samzx12LMAO
I am sorry but I have been in this hobby for years and not meaning to
start a flaming war but seriously thousands for a record cleaner? ... If it makes you feel better and have the money to waste feel free but
your conscience has to get the better of you." I don't understand. Are you saying that if you think spending thousands of dollars on a record cleaner is a waste, my conscience should keep me from buying one? |
LMAO I am sorry but I have been in this hobby for years and not meaning to start a flaming war but seriously thousands for a record cleaner? I literally am shaking my head right now because the 1st thing comes to mind is Harley Davidson riders. Total sheep. Buy into anything Harley. If it's branded HD they flock like sheep and will spend $$$$ because of either ignorance or buy into their expert marketing. Guys really I get bored also and over analyze this hobby but wake up and smell the roses. If it makes you feel better and have the money to waste feel free but your conscience has to get the better of you. Geez!!! |
From what I've read, the high frequency units dislodge smaller particles, are gentler than the 40hz units, and require more time to get the job done. I'm in process of shifting from a $170 40hz Chinese machine to a $1350 Elma Sonic German unit that sweeps 37hz-80hz with more power. The Chinese unit does slightly better than my VPI 16.5. I'm hoping for more performance from the Elma. |
OP poses a good question. Go to Amazon and search for ""ultra sonic cleaner". You will drop a record when you see the prices. Dont get me wrong; the machines look great, although some who have the machines are beginning to ask whether the high frequency scrubbing is scrubbing the high frequency data off the grooves, based on their actual listening experience: very quiet, but losses on the high end. There ought to be a way to test for this. I would like some comfort on this point before committing an entire collection to the process. |
For years I cleaned my records by hand. I then bought a VPI 16.5 machine for about $600 and was in 7th heaven...still am. It was a huge improvement and changed my LP listening experience. Now I'm reading here about guys that have had the same machine moving up to more expensive brands... and getting much better results. Wow....this hobby never stops, there's always something better out there...and more expensive. A more expensive machine may yield better results for me, but I'm good just where I'm at. I'm not going to pay more for the record cleaner than I paid for my phono preamp or turntable. |
Sim- to answer your outstanding question, I've never used the Spin Clean or equivalent. By the time I started getting into record cleaning in the early '80s, the VPI was available and I bought one. I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to machines and methods. However, I do believe it is important to remove the cleaning fluid from the record (which, if it has done its job, has suspended within it, various contaminants from the record grooves). Apart from the ultrasonic machines addressed above, getting the (contaminated) fluid off the record usually involves a couple steps- a rinse step with some kind of purified water and vacuum. Getting the record "dry" is not the equivalent of removing the fluid/contaminant slurry. So, my assumption is that wiping the record dry will not fully remove it. Hope that helps. |
Actually, Slaw, I was responding to Cedar's post- where he described a DIY ultrasonic rig as a way of saving money. My post added an additional point- that there was a benefit to the DIY, in my estimation, over and above the commercial ultrasonics. That had nothing to do with you or your preferred methods. I'm sorry I got you upset over this. It was not my intention, and for those who know me on this board, I rarely engage in Internet sparring. Nobody is a 'bad guy,' and no one, in my estimation, needs absolution. Take it easy, bill hart |
whart, I just want you to address the above topic without transferring, somehow, your posts in a way that allows you to be absolved from ( YOUR PAST POSTS). I addressed your response to my way of cleaning lps. Now, somehow, you have transferred the/your need to show us all your "better way" of cleaning lps after my last post. Somehow, people that (don't accept their failings, have a GREAT ability, to transfer their failings upon another) Somehow, now I'm the BAD GUY! |
Slaw- sorry, you mentioned it in a thread about record shows. Not sure why you are offended, but if so, my apologies. I may reply later to the method issue, not something I'm trying to be competitive about- it was a friendly, genuine offer. Again, sorry for the offense, happy to try to delete the post if that's an issue. |
Hey - one more question. The Spin-Clean has those two immersed brushes, right? After you manually rotate the lp three or four times, you're then to take it out and let it drip the "bathwater" for a few seconds, then dry it with the supplied cloths, rubbing with the grain until the lp is dry. I've been doing this, then setting the lp's in a metal rack to air dry. Should I even bother with the cloths? Or will the Hunt brush remove most of the fibers? |
whart, Why do you seem to find "sucking out" any contaminants better than allowing a "blow dry" method? It could only be that, your method still has crud at that stage, when my method has methodically washed away in an organic way, all of the crud that you want to continue to keep "in the conversation" at this point. I can possibly accept your method if that is superior to mine. Thinking it through, however, I still find my method superior. |
Slaw: You are up in Buffalo if I remember (from a thread on record shows)? Do you get down to NYC metro area? I’m north of the city, near Nyack when in NY- would love to show you what I’ve been doing with various cleaning machines. (And you are welcome to be our guest). Whoops, just checked, you are in N.C. Well, the invite still stands. Sim- don’t get us started on stoves now! :) |
whart, You are correct. One can "pluck the lp out" before the drying cycle, (and then simply press the off switch. Yes, really. I've never used a Loricraft but I can surmise that anytime two differing components meet/touch, there is some sort of reaction. If one steams first, as do I, then there is little to no crud to be sucked up in the first place in the later steps I outline. Therefore, If one uses my method, allowing the Audio Desk to blow dry the much cleaner lp is the better way. (This is my last step) My method: I apply cleaner I steam both sides I then use the VPI as another way of rinsing/extracting anything left on the lp I then use the Audio Desk I then set it ti dry further Cheers! |
@cleeds No, my mind wasn't made up beforehand, but yours obviously was insofar as the histrionics of your replies. I get it: you're passionate about a vinyl cleaning machine. I'm ambivalent, really. If I had 3000 lp's, maybe I'd invest in one, as Mapman suggested. I don't know if I'll ever have that many of anything (except grains of rice), so I probably won't spend $3K on an Audio Desk, seeing how I don't need one. And thank you for your words of wisdom re: Fijian vacations. As someone who has taken a few of them in my life for $3-5K, I cam attest that they are indeed one of a kind experiences that didn't involve run-of-the-mill resorts. Perhaps you should get off the beaten path more often -- before you face the vinyl curtain. Anyway, thank you to the rest for all the technical info about cleaning machines. I know my little Spin-Clean is probably the equivalent of an Easy-Bake Oven when compared to a really good stove; I just wanted to know why and if the cost was justified. |
Slaw- really? When I had the Audio Desk, I don't recall any way to stop the machine before it goes from wash to dry- yes, I suppose you could just pluck it out before the drying cycle started- then, the machine would continue to dry with no record in it? The why is a different matter. No static using a Monks (or Loricraft). And it sucks out the stuff in the grooves, rather than blowing air on the record. In more than a couple of instances, this method helped me remove tracing distortion on records that I would have attributed to groove damage. |
whart:, One can remove an lp before the drying cycle starts on an Audio Desk. But, Why? Vacuuming dry is effective but has the deleterious affect of infusing static electricity back into the clean vinyl record. Cedar: I wholeheartedly agree that one has to (enjoy) the process. Otherwise, it is failed effort over the long haul and if you dread cleaning, the lps will suffer, so will your listening pleasure. |
Cedar- good post- sometimes i view record cleaning as a task to be dreaded, and other times, I look forward to it and can actually enjoy the process. I've had both commercial ultrasonics- the Audio Desk and KL and have used them in combination with vacuum machines, like the Monks. The best results I have obtained have come from washing a pre-cleaned record in the ultrasonic, and vac drying it on a point nozzle, like the Monks (or Loricraft). The vacuum seems to be more effective than forced air drying in removing the last iota of crap from the grooves. So, the notion of a DIY ultrasonic makes huge sense to me, not only as a cost savings, but because it enables you to remove the record before the forced air drying cycle (something that isn't really possible on the Audio Desk and, while possible on the KL, isn't recommended by the manufacturer). |
I've built and used ultrasonic record cleaners intensively during the past two years. I began by using 60 kHz transducers and, later moved to 80 kHz transducers. The highly finished models made in Korea and in Germany are more expensive and less adaptable than I needed. A knowledgeable person can build an ultrasonic record cleaning system (including variable timer and cleaning accessories) for about $800 in materials plus labor. Although the initial cost is not prohibitive, cleaning a record to the point of playing dead quiet does require more time, care and effort. You have to enjoy the process, both preparation and listening, for it to be worthwhile. The benefit of ultrasonic record cleaning to my enjoyment of my 2000+ record collection has been as great or greater than other upgrades to my sound system. |
Unfortunately mark up levels in audio are often beyond reasonable. Best examples are audio cables and cartridges. You can buy an air tight PC-1 supreme or top of the line Kimber cables 45 % below list price - and everyone still makes enough money - including the dealer. Nordost Odin 2 interconnect 0.75 meter for $20,000 - are you kidding me? Even rich folks have to be on strong medication in order to pay these prices! I bought my Audiodesk Vinyl Cleaner from a source in Germany (where it's made) for EUR1,380 plus tax ($1,575 in todays Dollars) which included mark-up from the dealer I bought it. The overpriced high mark up system in our hobby only works because enough audiophiles with deep enough pockets keep it going. Luckily there are excellent products out there for reasonable to fair money - you'll find them if you look for them ... |
This winter I bought an Ultrasonic V8 from David Ratcliffe. With the dryer cube it was about $1800 shipped. It cleans and dries 8 records at a time and the improvement in sound from cleaning with my trusty VPI 16.5 is amazing. I sold the VPI to a guy that was just using a carbon fiber brush. He is amazed at the improvement the VPI brings to his listening. I had to set the Ultrasonic V8 up in my laundry room because you have to drain the cleaning tank after every 100 records or so, and besides it's too bulky and industrial looking to reside in the listening room. The Klaudio and AudioDeske and the new $5000 Clearaudio machine are much more refined looking and can be seen in public. But if you want the benefits of ultrasonic cleaning for less than half the price of these other more beautiful machines, check out the Ultrasonic V8. |
