Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
Douglas Schroeder you need to reread the op. He mentions trying two out of the three cables. Shadorne good for you for trying to bring some sanity to the discussion. And to the OP as well, kudos for posting this experience, unfortunately you can lead a horse to water but..... As you can see the truth is very unpopular, people don't want to hear that there is no Santa Claus. Randy-11 I love that one! i can just see all these cable gurus searching online for this wonderful new cable company.
When SR came out with their Apex stuff it was pushed as the "deeper higher wider 3D black blackest complete silence holographic .... cables ever save their Galileo wire. 6 years later we are getting the same marketing BS with wider deeper higher etc...
how much wider deeper higher 3-D holographic can it get each year??? When does it stop ?? It's as if a vail was lifted bla bla bla. HF Pro cables at $20K will do it. More vail removed. 6 years from now more vail removed!! 20 years from now the same Marketing BS!! Add more magnets now $30K for one cable.
So this thread kills the golden cow!! Makes the cable guys twist $ squirm! Same old responses written 10 years ago. Nothing has changed!!!
There is a more excelllent way to bettter SQ in your audiophile Journey than wire !!
After SR Apex I was burnt so bad that I never wanted to hear or see them again. Deepest BS in Audio World ever!!! MPC BS!!!
But alas, I tried one of their newer products that made me Realize wire was not the Rd to the pot of Gold.
Can we all agree wire cannot obtain the sonic pot of gold? It is part of a complete that when well matched can get you closer. But no, wire alone cannot do it. Can we also agree that wire types can sound different? Hoping to reach something we can mostly agree with.
grannyring Can we all agree wire cannot obtain the sonic pot of gold?
In this hobby it’s sometimes best not to try and draw any conclusions about anything, no matter how convinced we might be that it's true. Nothing is true. Everything is true.
If the OP would have posted the video on youtube I might find some credibility in this post. I would never spend 5k on a cable. If you think wire all sounds the same, why would you buy expensive cables to match your expensive components. Are you going to say to friends look at my expensive cables that sound no better than $10 cables.
@Glory- Perhaps I misunderstood your post, regarding the Apex and it’s MPC being, "BS". I’m rerunning this, since I was too late to edit the first post, correcting the Platinum’s maker(tried a couple Audioquest cables too, pre-Silver Audio): When Wireworld brought out it’s Platinum Eclipse interconnects, I thought I’d upgrade from my(10 year old) Silver Audio Hyacinths and ordered a pair from The Cable Company. To my dismay: while the Platinums(preamp to monoblock main amps/RCA) obviously did pass more inner detail than the Hyacinths, and retained my image focus, the sound stage collapsed to the outer edges of my Magnepans. Cable Co gave me full credit toward a pair of Tesla Apex, which equaled the Platinums in inner musical detail and restored my system’s sound stage(we’re talking a few feet to either side of the speakers). They were the first SR products I tried and have purchased a couple of the their power cords and a pair of Tesla Tricon Analogs since. Unless I win the lottery, these, along with my Kimber KS 1130s and KS 1030s are all permanent system residents. Whatever your particular problem(system compatability/ears/etc) with the Apexes, it’s not because they aren’t an excellent musical signal conduit and most assuredly NOT, "BS"!. Just relating my personal experience(end).
Earlier this year there was a very lengthy thread here entitled "Why do people feel the need to buy expensive cable." I posted the following in that thread, which I think is sufficiently relevant to be worth repeating here in its entirety.
To
put it all succinctly, my opinion is that as with most things in life
the truth lies somewhere in the middle ground between extremist points
of view.
Almarg 3-15-2016 3:30pm EDT
1)Wires sound different, to a greater or lesser degree depending not
only on the wire but on the technical characteristics of what they are
connecting, their lengths, the AC voltage and noise characteristics at
the particular location in the case of power cords (at least), the
system, the room, the recording, and the listener.
2)For many
reasons, including synergy with the aforementioned variables, the
correlation between cable price and cable performance is significantly
less than 1.0 (i.e., significantly less than perfect).
3)Based in
part on a substantial body of anecdotal evidence that has accumulated
over the years, the correlation between cable price and cable
performance is significantly greater than 0.0 (i.e., significantly
greater than none).
4)It seems evident that some cables are
overpriced, one reason among several being that their prices are
determined in part based on what the market will bear. And it seems
evident that SOME segment of the market assumes a higher degree of
correlation between cable price and cable performance than is actually
the case, and that segment of the market will therefore pay higher
prices to achieve results that may (with sufficient experimentation) be
achievable at lower prices in their particular cases.
5)Additional
reasons that cables may in many cases be overpriced relative to the
benefit they are likely to provide (I’m quoting from myself in the
following thread from a couple of years ago; and pardon the redundancy
with some of the points mentioned above):
(a)As seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles, cable performance is highly system dependent.
(b)From
a technical standpoint, it can be expected that cable performance will
vary significantly depending on the technical characteristics of the
components that are being connected, such as impedances. Even to the
point of a comparison between two cables yielding exactly opposite
results depending on what they are connecting. In past threads, such as this one,
I have cited examples of situations in which exactly that can be
expected to occur. [See especially both of the paragraphs in my post in
that thread dated 12-15-2012 which begin with "one interesting
example"].
(c)It seems to be generally agreed by most audiophiles
that cable performance cannot be either fully explained or fully
predicted based on generally recognized science. It follows from that,
however, that the cable designers have no way to accurately predict the
point of demarcation between optimization of a given cable parameter or
design characteristic and what may be overkill of that parameter or
design characteristic, which will accomplish nothing in most or all
applications. Therefore it can be expected that what is likely to be a
significant driver of the cost of many very expensive cables is overkill
of some or all of their design parameters and characteristics, which
will accomplish nothing in most or all applications.
6)It
can be expected that if SOME audiophiles whose cable experience has
focused disproportionately on the higher part of the price spectrum were
to give equal opportunity to a variety of cables at lower price points,
and experiment with such cables as extensively as they do with higher
priced cables, there is a significant chance that they may be able to
achieve performance comparable to what they have achieved at those
higher price points at significantly lower price points. A substantial
body of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere
supports that conclusion, for example the threads about vintage Western
Electric wires.
7)It can be expected that if SOME audiophiles
whose cable experience has focused disproportionately or entirely on the
lower part of the price spectrum were to focus on the higher part of
the price spectrum they might in some cases, depending in part on their
equipment, be surprised at how good the results are. A substantial body
of anecdotal evidence that has been reported here and elsewhere supports
that conclusion
8)Some audiophiles care more than others about
achieving the last 5 or 10 or 20% of the performance their components
are capable of. Some are satisfied with 80% and just want to listen to
music. Both approaches are equally valid.
9)Assertions that wire is just wire are erroneous, and that belief should not be promulgated.
10)Assertions
that more expensive necessarily = better are also erroneous, and that
belief should not be promulgated, by implication or otherwise.
11)Just
as not all audible differences are measurable, not all measurable
differences are audible. I say that in connection with measurable
differences that are presented in some marketing literature.
12)An
assertion that spending more on cables rather than less increases the
**probability** of achieving optimal results is arguably correct, but
pronouncements to that effect are not gospel. And opinions to the
contrary, if presented in a respectful manner, can and should be
discussed in a respectful manner.
@almarg Thanks for injecting a bolus of reason into this thread!
The basic premise of the cable deniers here seems to be well summed up by shadorne:
"Surely the wishful thinking is on the part of any person believing that a
mere piece of copper wire (even some wire costing a ridiculous $5000)
is going to transform their system in a SIGNIFICANT way?"
Well, for one thing, it seems to me that shadorne and other take it upon themselves to presume to know what is "significant" for others. Well, who are they to know what is significant to someone else? Who are they to presume to know the acuity of another's hearing, and how their brain perceives sound?
Also, in speaker cables, we are dealing with an analog signal, not 1s and 0s, as with digital signals. We're told that, with digital, the device on the other end of the cable either gets the digits and decodes them, or it doesn't. But the situation is totally different with speaker cables. Actually, it seems absurd to me to think that cables constructed of widely differing materials and physical designs would sound alike at all.
So, back to "significance". If a person is willing to purchase pricey cables in order to obtain an additional 5% of realistic presentation of the system's signal, why can't some people just accept that they can indeed hear a slight difference and that the product is worth it to them?
I agree with Goeffkait that bind tests have very limited value, but for the primary reason that they don't correspond to listening and therefore are invalid.
if I are merely hidden for your knowing what components are being used and you get to listen for a reasonable time to a known cut, one should get something out of them.
But a 30 second same/different task is useless as we don't listen like that when listening to music. I have been involved in such listening test of 30 seconds where after afterwards I listed for more extended time and always picked one unit as best. If you don't hear a difference between two components don't buy either. If you hear your piece sounding better, keep it. Screw anyone else opinion unless you have much prior experience they hear as you do.
How do you get confidence with so few audiophiles and dealers? THis is a major problem. I have many friends even in other countries that often give valid advice to me. But forget double blind 30, same/different tests and try to ignore bells and whistles.
But I do agree with him that many factors matter. No cytogenetic treatment, however. TEsla coil treatment is far superior.
I have decade old 1st generation Monster speaker cables in my basement. Several years ago out of curiosity I installed them in my system. Didn't take 30 seconds but immediately noticed collapsed soundstage, 2D (Bo, were you using Monster cables??), fuzzy, lack extension ... and NO bass.
Like I said earlier, OP is just a TROLL. No way with Wilson Alexia, McIntosh ... and can't hear a difference between cables.
I agree with Goeffkait that bind tests have very limited value, but for the primary reason that they don't correspond to listening and therefore are invalid.
if I are merely hidden for your knowing what components are being used and you get to listen for a reasonable time to a known cut, one should get something out of them.
But a 30 second same/different task is useless as we don't listen like that when listening to music. I have been involved in such listening test of 30 seconds where after afterwards I listed for more extended time and always picked one unit as best. If you don't hear a difference between two components don't buy either. If you hear your piece sounding better, keep it. Screw anyone else opinion unless you have much prior experience they hear as you do.
How do you get confidence with so few audiophiles and dealers? THis is a major problem. I have many friends even in other countries that often give valid advice to me. But forget double blind 30, same/different tests and try to ignore bells and whistles.
But I do agree with him that many factors matter. No cytogenetic treatment, however. TEsla coil treatment is far superior.
Blind tests demonstrate that differences may be too subtle to notice easily. They don't prove there are no differences but they do show that the differences are very subtle and at a level where it may not matter to some listeners. That serves a purpose. It also shows who is a better critical listener. Just like wine tasting. Some are a lot better than others. I can guess a French red wine region from blind tasting. I am hopeless with white wine. I guess my interest is red wine so that is hardly surprising.
I agree that more than 30 secs may be necessary as I believe that a variety of tracks may actually be needed to eventually highlight a difference between components. It takes time to home in on a difference but once you find it and know what to listen for then you can find it.
To the contrary, sighted tests run the risk of being influenced by expectations. Sighted tests are of limited value when performance is very close as it is hard to remove the bias about the equipment. The old adage "looks can be deceiving" applies.
mtrot, agree, and I also thank Al, almarg for his wisdom, always a good dose of soundness (pun intended)
Now for those who still think the OP wasn’t bogus, I have some land, possibly future commercial/industrial, in Florida for sale at a fraction of potential value. Just needs a little fill in low areas to help with drainage. That being done, will likely cause the alligators to leave.
SR did use a lot of Marketing BS in the past but what I found from one of their resent products made me reevaluate the path to better SQ and it's not wire!! Mind you one still needs good/great wire but the path has been paved by SR :) $$$ to better SQ.
@glory - Perhaps the BS was before I became their fan, the Apex being my first encounter with SR. If you're referring to their passive and active field resonators/room treatments: isn't all that enlightening? Ever do any studies in Quantum Theory/Mechanics?
There was an article a few years ago in (IIRC) Stereophile or some audiophile rag that tested several high end speaker cables. They also tried a few "underground" solutions including a pair of 10ga (or was it 8ga) stranded copper THHN cable (petrol-resistant hard insulator) conductors twisted around each other. The underground solution equaled or bettered the performance of the other speaker cables in the test. I tried that and it was VERY good. But not as good as the 12ga stranded copper cable I was (and am still) using.
It's clear that some cables sound better than other on a specific speaker - amp combination. That same cable may not work well with other combinations. It also seems that very short cable runs work best and provide the least signal filtration / distortion.
There is something going on beyond just conducting a signal.
Setting fire to your money would make more sense than buying $5000 speaker cables. At least then it'll keep you warm for a few minutes. Any cables with a good quality core and well-bonded insulation will do the job just the same.
I had a chance to demo some very high end "FLAT" speaker cable from my audiophile dealer... I could hear a difference... no line drop! Then I went to Home Depot and purchased 10-2 strained copper power cable. (10 AWG) and made a direct A/B comparison. IDENTICAL sound quality! Try it your self... only $2.08 per foot! It's all I use for my high end speakers!
Your results are absolutely correct. Please don’t buy the $5K cables. If you absolutely must buy those and the money is burning a hole in your pocket, I will gladly accept the cash and send you 12AWG bi-wire cables and donate the rest of the money to the best rated charity :) Your blind test joins the arsenal of other tests performed by many scientific audiophiles and they all show the same results. Only thing that matters is the gauge for analog signals. Its low voltage DC current running through. The fatter the cable easier the flow. Many other members must have said it all. I haven't read the entire thread yet.
Inductance and capacitance are frequency dependent at frequencies in the audible spectrum. Cables are designed to filter (tune) frequencies to taste accordingly. This is not "news" or in question. It is science. Those who do not hear this either do not have the requisite system or hearing to detect the differences. Whether the economics of such tuning are of merit is entirely an individual analysis of which I have little interest.
I suppose that's surprising to some. I stopped reading Absolute Sound and Stereophile many years ago when it became obvious that they were in the business of selling product with no basis in reality such as cables and interconnects at unreal prices. That was many years ago and prices have gone way up since then. There will be many that rail against you in this forum. I haven't read the postings yet but this is a snooty HiFi website. Imagination is a big part of the Audio game. It always has been. No, you're not the last person to find out that expensive cable is a rip. Look at the people in the postings defending it...
When comparing cheap vs expensive cable you cannot change the physical characteristics of the conductor. The gauge and length and number of separated conductors must remain the same (single vs bi-wire). Monoprice has Nimbus or Access series 12 awg bi-wire awesome cables
sautan904, What you did was essentially a scientific experiment. I applaud you for your action, determination, and tact. I'm sure many people here have spent $$$ on expensive cable and will express an opinion that will justify thier expense. Let me assure you that what matters is RESULTS. Measurable results. If a $5,000 cable doesn't produce 100x better results than a $50 cable, can you really justify its 100x price? The sad fact is that in this blind test and probably any other blind test, no destinguishable difference was observable to a series of well trained ears. We audiophiles must begin to demand measurable results to justify these extreme prices for simple fabrications of polymers and copper. We must stop using emotional bias to make purchases and demand measurable results. I am thankful that you made this experiment and shared your results with us. Please continue your quest for the truth in the audiophile world.
It is a pity one can't hear difference. And it is a pity one stops at "price tag" paradigm.
1) cabling is mix & match game. Not price tag game. No effort spent no gain. 2) given my loudspeakers is full range single driver high efficiency, my 3M pair DIY silver OCC speaker cable cost me $150. BUT a pair of boutique brand interconnect costs me $1700.
Me. I wouldn't trade my Actinote Arias for anything. I've tried 14 guage following an Absolute Sound comment and it was just OK. The better cables give inkier backgrounds and firmer, more dynamic presentation. And if you're really lucking, greater sense of scale, vividness, and 3-D imaging.
You know it's, what all intelligent people should know, that the only time cable becomes an issue is when you have a very high end & quality amp, to use cable less than 12 awg will constrain the current flow to your speakers, thereby causing a less than full reproduction of the audio frequency spectrum. As far as the 5k cable performing better than stranded 12 awg, good luck! But if you need bragging rights and money to burn, then this item is for you...
Cables will make a difference...but, depending. Not by reason of the higher price, by default. It all depends on how precise and well set up your system is. How much transparency potential it has to begin with. And, it involves a lot more than just cables.... If you can not hear a difference? Stop right there and keep the cheaper ones. If you learn along the way the various ways to improve your system’s accuracy and transparency? Then different cables will make a difference. They will. I found that the most expensive cables might not sound the most accurate realistic. They will sound different though.... and, some will like the "effect" they cause.
So 12 gauge is enough, regardless of current flow, even with a 6000 w/ch@1 ohm, 158 amperes peak current amplifier? Good to know. Digging out that Radio Shack 12 gauge as I write.
I guess all that nonsense about the time-smearing effects of cheap dielectric, the noise-floor lowering benefits of proper construction geometry and superior shielding technology are all figments of the elite’s imagination? Wonder how they ever afforded that stuff, being so gullible and all?
If you have high end/audiophiles equipments like amps, preamp, speakers, etc, then if you need to buy expensive cables to make your system to sound good or better, then you don't really have highness/audiophiles equipments to begin with. Does this make sense?
I recently bought some audio art speaker cable and was stunned by the differrnce. And more than reasonable price wise Plus free Shipping. Give them a try YOU WILL HEAR THE DIFFERENCE. I did not believe till I tried these. Should be able to find on audiogon. You will thank me.
Best I understand it, they use resistor/capacitor networks to tune the electrical characteristics of the cable to optimize the signal (as they see best) based on the type of component (SS vs tube) and the length of cable (resistance/capacitance/inductance), much like Transparent Audio, but with different sonic goals.
I would advise that you resist the urge to "dissect one". They are expensive and little would be learned by doing so, unless you are technically savvy and don’t care about resale value.
Cables seem very much in the realm of a religious discussion. Dr. Aix (Mark Waldrep) on realhd.com has had some interesting posts about cables from a recording engineer point of view....I tend to agree with him.
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