Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
Doing a "blind test" in a store will not change the fact that cables make a difference.
And, When you move some cables around, the sound will become fuzzy after you move them, and the distinguishing characteristics of each cable is lessened to the point where they all sound alike. My Nordost and Shunyata are like this, and I’ve also owned Transparent’s top cables as well as MIT and XLO.
HOWEVER, when I first started out, I was not knowledgeable enough to know to leave cables alone for an hour or two (yes, I’ve timed it myself, using Ella Fitzgerald and Nat King Cole albums, because voice will tell you everything you want to know) before playing. The fact that your second dealer (or the first one, for that matter), has tin ears, proves nothing. A local dealer I know, (and his system is pretty expensive) has disappointing sound for something with ARC, Wilsons and Transparent. And the contours of the music, dynamically, tonally AND spatially??? It’s not in evidence in this system. Unbelievable almost, but true.
People use "the dealer says" as a substitute for saying, "The AUTHORITY stated..." Dealers don’t necessarily know music, you know. And they don't necessarily know how to set equipment up. There's more to it than plonking it down on a rack and playing, something that is routine now, but 30 years ago, the setups were more meticulous. Look at the audio shows: even THEY don't get everything set up right the first day of the show.
If you’re going to test cords, take them home and install them yourself. On YOUR system. and then leave it alone for two hours and play it. Then change the cords, leave alone for a while again. There are no shortcuts here. The differences among components - mostly amps and preamps - are more easily discernible than cables, because nothing is moving around in the amps and preamps, whereas, with cables, you’re stretching the cable and twisting them. I’ve NO idea what goes on inside, but I’ve owned the most expensive things around, and cables do not react well to being moved.
Your experiment was not truly a controlled experiment, not to mention blind tests are not a good way to determine quality. I see people on here who buy cables and complain it doesn't sound 'good'. Lets take Shunyata, since I know them best. There are people who buy Shunyata’s cables and after 40 hours comment on them and say, ugh, they’re dark. By now, any decent thread will inform you that Shunyata’s Zi-Tron cables will take around 400 hours before they lose their constricted sound, yet people write interviews based on 200 hours of play. I assume they don’t know not to write a review until the product is fully broken in and some products take that long (CJ with their Teflon capacitors, and anyone else who uses Teflon). Shunyata, incidentally, says, 200 hours, but in 14 years of having owned Shunyata products (speaker cables, power cords, interconnects), I have yet to find the component's fully burned in at 200 hours. BUT. They may use a different breaking method, although they champion "heavy" fans left on. I’ve bought expensive cables since 1986 and I can hear the differences among MIT, Transparent, XLO, Furutech, Goertz, Shunyata (I own many Shunyata cords and signal cables), Nordost (ditto). The only ones that sounded very alike were the Goertz and the Nordost, a finding that two Absolute Sound reviewers (one of them was HP) parroted when they did their review. HP said he wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between the two easily. However, he then added a caveat in this review: that you could hear much more easily the differences between the two cables IF YOU USED VINYL INSTEAD OF DIGITAL. A good point if one wants to get to the truth the fastest. I’ll guess your dealer used digital. Well, that’s no crime, but it led you to the wrong conclusion. Cables a ripoff??? Well,yes, the pricing is obscene for many of the top brands. The upside? They do make a difference. Even my tin-eared friend hears that. Your dealer’s setup sounds like it needs fine tuning. Do you know the components he used? Are you familiar with ALL of the components, because you're just guessing otherwise. Far too many dealers to not take time to set up their equipment flawlessly, and I include at least one of the legendary stores in New York, Lyric. The one time I went to audition an amplifier in there, it sounded flat-out horrible. Knowing Harry wouldn’t have praised it (the ASL Hurricanes) that highly if it wasn’t that good, I just bought the amps, instead, from another dealer and it was magical. So, if I’d gone by that test, I’d never have bought the amp. I knew Harry, so I knew if he said it was phenomenal, then it was. With the equipment you have at home, you should be able to hear differences without much strain. Listen on your OWN system, AFTER the components are broken in. ALL of them. And find out how many hours your dealers have on components they use for demonstrations. Too many things are wrong in your premise, but especially ’The Great Cable Ripoff’ caper.
The biggest problem I have with audio claims, is how the comparisons are made. I’ve learned that if there are differences, I want to hear them from someone who is making instantaneous A/B comparisons. It’s the only way our little brains can keep up with differences - if there are any. I’ve learned first hand from amp comparisons, if they’re level matched and I’m quickly A/Bing - I can’t hear a difference...
Apparently, the shoe fit! Last thing I need, Dynaquest, is a deaf mom, telling me what to do, listen to, how to comprehend or spend. Unlike you, I'm capable of allowing another to their ubiquitous(generally vapid), "Last Word".
I don't recall being that impressed (to put it kindly) with McIntosh gear regarding their status as high end, resolving gear. They do have the looks and their laurels to rest on to further their product line but aside from that.....
The point is that high end gear is necessary for the ability to hear differences and yet doesn't have to be costly. We've all (hopefully) traveled that path and are now at a point where a small change can and will extract it's pound of flesh.
Trained ears and the discipline developed to hear differences serves as a base point for all critical listening, which allows just plain old listening for pleasure's sake.
For every Roger Russell who's in the "all cable needs to be...." crowd there's a Professor Hawksford who says otherwise: "I am not trying to say that this effect is necessarily significant, only that an error component is predicted by our theory and is shown by our measurements to exist."
Citing someone will only bring up someone else.
Who's to say that those differences aren't audible? I don't know of any study that says ALL cables measure the same. I've yet to see one. They are always different, albeit to small and varying degrees.
Our ears are incredibly refined instruments and like any instrument, can be tuned to detect differences of very small magnitudes. Tests show this to be true. I think what harms intelligent discussion is the standard yardsticks we use to measure, or rather, that some of us insist that those standard yardsticks are the ONLY measurement to go by. They are nothing more than gross generalizations. Rounding errors for simplicities sake.
Just as no two wires will measure identically, no two ears will either. I can hear small differences and have learned to appreciate them over the long haul. Others can too.
people can be intelligent, and get duped into giving excessive money for a product that cannot possibly "work as advertised" when they lack technical knowledge
and I suspect that includes most audiophiles - science & engineering majors are less likely to get duped than an otherwise intelligent liberal arts or business major
@rodman: assuming that derogatory comment was directed at me, I'd reluctantly counter with: "It is amazing how much one can read without, in any meaningful way, understanding."
Now....if you have nothing of significance to contribute to the subject ($5K expensive cables), why just just sit in the crowd and refrain from useless, personal comments.
Ha! Busted!! Just couldn't resist after reading Roger Russell's "history" of audio wire.
There is just something fascinating about how people, that I will assume are otherwise intelligent, can get duped into giving excessive money for a product that cannot possibly "work as advertised" and then (maybe subconsciously) convince themselves that they can actually hear an improvement where none is scientifically possible. Even when proven over and over again that listeners (without a monetary investment in said wires) cannot hear a difference....or at least tell the difference.
Those with this compulsion feed the industry that continues to up the ante and now bring you wires and interconnects that you can, if you like, spend $176,000.00 on a single stereo system.
And....I really don't think I am being "snarky;" but feel free to take it that way if it helps you sleep.
dynaquest4 said: "
@dill.....you actually counted the posts? Holy Moly, you are a busy guy!" and "
Think I’ve made my opinions known so I will leave this forum now. If anyone needs the final word, fire away. "
If you actually read instead of suffering from "snarkolepsy", you would notice that a running count of all responses is posted just below the OP.
Gotta walk the walk not just talk the talk in order to really know anything for sure.
Walkmen rule! ...................
The only thing better than any cables, even super duper cables, are no cables at all, grasshopper. No more speaker cables, no interconnects, no power cords. No more house AC, no fuses, no transformers, no big capacitors, no crossovers, no AC ground, no room treatments. No more teacher’s dirty looks. Look within, grasshopper.
I hate to judge before all the facts are in but we have here is actually nothing more than the old uber skeptics' warhorse logical fallacy, the A Priori Argument. It’s one of the favored illogical arguments for a host of audio related things but especially cables, fuses, wire directionality and controversial tweaks.
The A Priori Argument (Also, Rationalization; Proof Texting.): A corrupt argument from logos, starting with a given, pre-set belief, dogma, doctrine, scripture verse, "fact" or conclusion and then searching for any reasonable or reasonable-sounding argument to rationalize, defend or justify it. Certain ideologues and religious fundamentalists are proud to use this fallacy as their primary method of "reasoning" and some are even honest enough to say so. The opposite of this fallacy is the Taboo. See also "Two Truths."
dynaquest4 said: "
Hifiman: read this entire thread, my previous posts and Roger Russell’s article and you will find your question to me superfluous."
Yea, like this thread and the decades old info contained in it, is worth the time. Seven pages and 300+ posts, I'd rather spend the time listening to my expensive speaker cables.... ;-)
sautan904, I will not waste my time with all of the nonsense in posts here, but there is absolutely no question that the High Fidelity 'Pro' cables surpass all other cables, especially if HFCables are used with them on a decent system. Unfortunately, the 'Pro' are $35k for a 1 m pair!!!!
Yes there are cheaper ones at $1000 that I have no heard, but I have heard all the series in between.
There is some truth to what you say, however. There are some expensive speaker wires that look great but aren't and some cheap cables that are better than others.
@dynaquest Have you ever done a listening comparison to divergent types of wires in a highly resolving audio system? In my 40+ years as an audiophile I can honestly say I have, including in blind tests when I had no idea what cable I was listening to and it really isn't that hard to hear a difference. The only relevant question is... what sound do you prefer??
Thanks for that link, frame11…I had not seen Roger Russell’s
“History of Speaker Wire” before. I didn’t
need convincing but I found his closing comments revealing. He says:
“When confronted with the truth, believers do not want to
hear about it. They want to remain in the magical world of fantasy where they
think they can hear improvements in their wire, often arrived at by making
listening tests without adequate controls or understanding of the problems
involved including speaker impedance and amplifier stability. One of the prime
tools in creating such a faith for the average consumer is by capitalizing on
fear and ignorance as in many other things that aren’t readily apparent. There
is fear that the wire currently in use is not good enough. There is ignorance
because most people do not have scientific knowledge in this area and lack
adequate measuring equipment to prove otherwise.”
Since those touting the increase in SQ with “expensive” cables,
can, without any scientific proof, only fall back on….well…"I could hear the
difference." Hmmm….the sense of hearing
proves their case? Russell takes this “sense”
and flips it to a sense of sight analogy…seeing, arguably a more reliable,
testable and provable sense and continues with this…which, for some reason, I
find quite refreshing:
“We have been told by advertising that the exotic speaker
wires offer fabulous advantages over ordinary lamp cord. It would seem
reasonable that using this same wire for lamps would also enhance their
performance. In the same vein as wire literature, you can have your lamp reproduce
light with the full spectrum color fidelity of natural daylight, finally
allowing you see light the way it should be seen and bring out the natural
performance of your lamp. It could offer greater warmth, detail, brilliance,
definition and speed by providing wider bandwidth and reduced skin effect. It
can provide a distortion free illumination that reduces eye strain, resulting
in clearer vision and optimal color perception. It can allow you to work for
longer periods of time with less visual distraction or fatigue. Just imagine
what it might do for your electric razor or microwave, etc.!”
You have a lot of nerve I must say trolling others here about high end. Its a good comedy routine at least.
My goodness, Moops, your strange outburst aside, it appears we have totally different ideas what the High End is. You obviously think your money buys your way into it. Whereas my High End cannot be bought.
A rich audiophile has about as much chance of getting into Audio Nirvana as a camel has of passing through the eye of a needle. - audiophile axiom
mapman Its abandoning some high end costs, not necessarily high end sound.
shiver me timbers, moops. I did not realize you were in the high end. You really should tell a person these things. Welcome aboard, sailor. It’s getting harder and harder to recognize fellow travelers. Maybe we should wear name tags.
wire or cable effects will be LESS significant in interconnects than speaker wires
anyone who understands physics or even rel. basic electronics will figure this out - the freq.s involved are simply too high to hear
the only other possibility is that a very high (usually RF) freq. will be injected into a component - if that affects the sound then the component would have to have a very odd design; most likely a design by someone who is not very competent
The controversy arises mainly by greedy charlatans (one of whom trolls this forum) who are able to convince well-off but unsophisticated consumers to buy their over-priced cables. There is also the confusion among electrostatic speaker owners who do hear differences from different speaker cables, and electrodynamic speaker owners who are likely not hearing differences, but do not do blind testing.
In general, run digital as far as you can; run interconnects in fully balanced mode to the amps, and keep speaker cables as short as possible (amps close to speakers). Use good quality Cu wire of at least 14 gauge (almost everything is "oxygen free) anyway, so that is not a worry). Belden has been making quality wires of all types for a very long time. China is known for food, martial arts, culture, and philosophy -- not (yet?) for quality consumer products...
The big SQ increases come from good speakers, room treatments, and quality masterings of source materials. After that, select an amp that can really control your speakers and their impedance curve. Pre-amps, DACs, etc. will prove to be less rewarding on a cost/benefit curve (tho I do like my ARC pre-amp).
If you have already spent $70,000 on your speakers, built a new listening room, and done everything above, then it is time to buy different speaker cables from a place that allows returns. Evaluate on a selected subset of your music library for esp. difficult issues where the recording & mastering is known to the be of the highest quality using double-blind testing. Once your speaker cabling is as you desire, you can then waste time on interconnects.
if the above is too much trouble then just buy a green pen and use it to treat the edges of your eyelids.
pops these is a report this button at lower right of each post that can be used to report improper postings. I don't think political content is necessarily prohibited but anyone can flag any post they think should be reported.
Its abandoning some high end costs, not necessarily high end sound.
Try not to tremble at the thought GK. I’m sure your products would still hold value.
Don’t worry. Nobody is going to take away your beloved Sony Walkman! Were high end sound to be abandoned, your sales of those could actually skyrocket!
mapman "I still have many older monster wires around and I even use them when needed. Guess what? They sound perfectly fine these days. Of course the systems I use them in these days are miles ahead of what I had back when I originally bought them. Goes to show that whatever the upside to certain more esoteric wires may or may not be, the downside is limited when everything else is performing well already.
Notice I did not say they sound the same or as good as others I use. I know some to sound different in spot a/b tests I have done from time to time. All I am saying is the the wires in of themselves do no harm. So I can choose to tweak wires or most anything else as needed and get quality results. Exact flavors of sound that results may vary.
Thing is it is easy and can be relatively inexpensive to tweak with wires. Its the same mindset that drives fuse tweakers I think (I am not one of those).
If a tweak is needed or desired and it does not cost much and I can change it easily and see what happens I will. HEck I even tried out a $100 fuse that someone here offered up to try for free. It was an easy thing to change and try so I did.
The interesting thing is some of our gear and systems cost a lot of money which means the price of "relatively inexpensive" goes up as well. Makes for a nice environment to sell things that are probably overpriced but still relatively affordable on the grand scale of things. Someone with a 6 digit system to start is not likely to balk at a 4 digit wire. More likely to balk at a less expensive wire not being up to par with the rest.
Its like if decorating a large expensive room in a mansion, One is probably not going to cheap up on the paint or other basic materials used that may or may not make much if any real difference in appearance in the end.
Luxury items are just that. Things that look nice and make us feel good about owning but may or may not actually be more functional in the end.
Just realize that expensive wires are luxury items and then we can all not loose any sleep about it."
I have yet to see anyone construct a better or more articulate argument for abandoning high end and returning to Mid Fi.
I still have many older monster wires around and I even use them when needed. Guess what? They sound perfectly fine these days. Of course the systems I use them in these days are miles ahead of what I had back when I originally bought them. Goes to show that whatever the upside to certain more esoteric wires may or may not be, the downside is limited when everything else is performing well already.
Notice I did not say they sound the same or as good as others I use. I know some to sound different in spot a/b tests I have done from time to time. All I am saying is the the wires in of themselves do no harm. So I can choose to tweak wires or most anything else as needed and get quality results. Exact flavors of sound that results may vary.
Thing is it is easy and can be relatively inexpensive to tweak with wires. Its the same mindset that drives fuse tweakers I think (I am not one of those).
If a tweak is needed or desired and it does not cost much and I can change it easily and see what happens I will. HEck I even tried out a $100 fuse that someone here offered up to try for free. It was an easy thing to change and try so I did.
The interesting thing is some of our gear and systems cost a lot of money which means the price of "relatively inexpensive" goes up as well. Makes for a nice environment to sell things that are probably overpriced but still relatively affordable on the grand scale of things. Someone with a 6 digit system to start is not likely to balk at a 4 digit wire. More likely to balk at a less expensive wire not being up to par with the rest.
Its like if decorating a large expensive room in a mansion, One is probably not going to cheap up on the paint or other basic materials used that may or may not make much if any real difference in the end.
Luxury items are just that. Things that are less common, of good build quality, that look nice, and make us feel good about owning but may or may not actually be more functional in the end.
Just realize that expensive wires are luxury items for the audio elite and then we can all not loose any sleep about it .
Mods, how about doing us a favor and getting rid of this obnoxious troll and stalker. Once you let them get a foothold in your house it's very difficult to get rid of them.
I started out with Lafayette and Garard when in high school in...you guessed it...my parent's basement.
I graduated to Dynaco and Warfdale in college. I then made other upgrades up to what I have today, which has been fairly stable for 20 years, the only new addition being the Onyx that I got as sort of a gift. No, I did not and would not pay $10K for it: I come from the David Hafler school of audio: you shouldn't have to mortgage your home for good sound.
Makes absolutely no difference in my view, $25 is nuts also. I recall paying much more than that, but it was 3 decades ago.
"...I had dinner with the Monster Cable dude...."
So what? I got my Koetsu Onyx from one of Neil Young’s engineers, but it’s not relevant to the discussion so I did not mention it. What’s relevant is what the Monster founder said about his own product, not that you had dinner with him.
Looks like someone has had some of his posts removed.
Well I love this site and have been very active selling, buying, and posting. I like reading geoffkait's comments as I find him both humorous and well educated on many matters important to this site.
He certainly does not need my backing, but it is in all of our best interests to hear a wide variety of opinion and knowledge. His humor is just nice icing on the tolerance cake.
Maplegrovemusic This reminds me of the need to enable the block function of posters . Kaitts posts are growing old . Same old same old . We know how you stand on everything related to audio Geoff . No need to remind us daily . Now how do i actually enable that block function ?
Noone is under any obligation to read my posts or anyone's posts. If you don't want to read my posts don't read them. Fair enough?
This reminds me of the need to enable the block function of posters . Kaitts posts are growing old . Same old same old . We know how you stand on everything related to audio Geoff . No need to remind us daily . Now how do i actually enable that block function ?
geoffkait, you have 4,719 posts here. I have 16. Seems to me that's the pot calling the kettle black.
I work for a living and spend almost no time here for a reason. I saw this thread and made a contribution base on 40 years of audio experience. Maybe some people here value that experience. you obviously don't.
Geoffkait, You have the need to insult everyone here who doesn't agree with you. I'm serious: you are emotionally damaged and should get help. It's no way to live.
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