Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?
I recently ordered high end speaker, power amp, and preamp to be installed in couple more weeks. So the next search are interconnect and speaker cable. After challenging the dealer and 3 of my so called audiophile friends, I think the only reason I would buy expensive cable is for its appearance to match with the high end gears but not for sound performance. I personally found out that $5K cable vs $10 cable are no difference, at least not to our ears. Prior to this, I was totally believe that cable makes a difference but not after this and reading few articles online.
Here is how I found out.
After the purchase of my system, I went to another dealer to ask for cable opinion (because the original dealer doesn't carry the brand I want) and once I told him my gears, he suggested me the high end expensive cable ranging from $5 - 10K pair, depending on length. He also suggested the minimum length must be 8-12ft. If longer than 12ft, I should upgrade to even more expensive series. So I challenged him that if he can show me the difference, I would purchase all 7 AQ Redwood cables from him.
It's a blind test and I would connect 3 different cables - 1 is the Audioquest Redwood, 1 is Cardas Audio Clear, and 1 my own generic 14AWG about 7ft. Same gears, same source, same song..... he started saying the first cable sound much better, wide, deep, bla...bla...bla......and second is decently good...bla...bla...bla.. and the last one sounded crappy and bla...bla...bla... BUT THE REALITY, I NEVER CHANGED THE CABLE, its the same 14AWG cable. I didn't disclosed and move on to second test. I told him I connected audioquest redwood but actually 14AWG and he started to praise the sound quality and next one I am connected the 14awg but actually is Redwood and he started to give negative comment. WOW!!!! Just blew me right off.
I did the same test with 3 of my audiophile friends and they all have difference inputs but no one really got it right. Especially the part where I use same generic 14awg cable and they all start to give different feedback!!!
SO WHAT DO YOU ALL THINK? OR I AM THE LAST PERSON TO FIND OUT THAT EXPENSIVE CABLE JUST A RIP OFF?
dynaquest4, I agree that there is a point where a well made cord can't be made any better, but only as long as it stays within the criteria of the original cord that is said to be all one needs. It doesn't really solve the dilemma.
As for all those miles and miles of cable that are before that outlet and all the nasty and negative effects it's subjected to, it has nothing to do with what you're taking "from" the wall. That is the starting point. The only thing that matters is taking what's right there at the outlet and making sure you get the best out of it.
Everything before it are nothing more than miles and miles of red herrings.
nonoise says: "If only we can agree on this then the conversation (debate?) can focus on what price point is too much? "
I think all this would lead one to believe that as long as basic cable requirements are met, any price over that is too much. Basic requirements for various cables have been mentioned numerous times in this thread.
As for power cords. If they can actually make a difference, then one would ask: "What about the other miles and miles of cable that brings power to your outlet. Certainly upgrading all that wire would make quantum improvements in audio, video, lighting, air compressor performance, how well the vacuum sucks and how quickly your blender can take you to Margaritaville!" Ha! Can hear it now..."You wouldn't believe how much better my margaritas taste since I changed the factory power cord to that super-duper one that only cost me $699.00!"
Benjie, I like, and have used, your TV analogy as it clearly demonstrates the obvious: a better made cable can have an improvement.
Going from a well made, run of the mill, PC on my TV (a GTT PC) to a Zu Mission PC made a HUGE difference on my plasma TV. A cyclops with macular degeneration could see and appreciate the difference. Which begs the question: if our eyes can clearly see the difference, then why not our ears? (another can 'o metaphysical worms).
If only we can agree on this then the conversation (debate?) can focus on what price point is too much?
benjie you are putting words in my mouth. I heard no difference at all. Just results that did not live up to the hype no matter how much gear was packed in there.
Granted I was not impressed enough to stick around long given my limited time there. Maybe with a longer audition.
Plus I would have had to hear something I never heard before to even consider those expensive products. Didn’t happen. I was actually hoping it would. Magnetic wires are different hence interesting to me. But I was not sold even with teh tens of thousands of dollars worth of HFC products that were in the room.
That’s just my unbiased impression. I am not in this industry, just a customer, and have no business associations otherwise at all with anyone.
I heard HFC room at Capital Audiofest last year. Was looking forward to it greatly given all the hype.
Small room, giant speakers, magnets everywhere, pretty good sound but nothing special except lots of gear and sound in a very tiny room that frankly most any good system, even smaller good quality monitors should be able to handle. it was definitely designed for sensory overload. Like that guy listening in the old JBL ads X 10. Whatever the magnet wires did or did not do, they had a lot of help from the oversized system (for that room) they were part of.
I liked other rooms with no magnets much better. Go figure!
Press covering the event seemed indifferent as well. Not many if any mentions.
I was turned off admittedly when I walked in and saw such a huge system set up in such a small room. Far from the norm and tons of overkill.
I do not doubt the magnets do something to the sound but with all that there was still no inherent superiority with the sound resulting though there was lots of it to spare. Did not live up to the hype.
Maybe if my expectations were lower going in and the wires were not given so much help impressing in that small room.
I’ve had great luck with Amazonbasics digital wires.
Here’s the thing about Amazon. Everyone knows this company has their act together and does most things right usually sooner rather than later. Nothing Amazon brand that has been around for any extended period of time is likely to be of poor quality or a bad value. This company has its act together to an extent that is almost scary.
Does anyone realize how many first rate companies trust Amazon to host their computing resources on Amazon Web Services, the same software Amazon web site itself is built upon?
Didn't some wise man once say "put your money where it matters"?
Dumb to continue to debate the HDMI cable issue. Other than physical durability the digital signal cannot be "made better." I'm fairly sure most of you know (or should know) this. My only point in bringing it up was to highlight how people can be duped into giving away money and, even more surprisingly, convince themselves there is a real (better) difference. See here: https://www.cnet.com/news/why-all-hdmi-cables-are-the-same/
Dana quest, great, now you should have two cables for comparison! Have at it! You should not need blind testing to compare the fact cable to throw away cable. The test is to see if you can hear a difference. Whether it's worth it is another question. I'm looking forward to your comparison.
I would be willing to review Atma-sphere preamp and amp with their choice of optimum cables versus my favorites and tell about the experience, a no lose proposition for the community. :)
it is all ones and zeros and either thy arrive or they don’t
Dyna you definitely jumped the shark a bit here when it comes to digital sound. There is more to it than that. The right ones need to arrive at the right time. Also the ones and zeros must be represented accurately (ones be ones and zeros zeros and not loose too many, ideally none along the way). Nearby sources of noise and other parameters are real issues to consider. Some do it better than others. Also it is not always done exactly the same way. Good news is excellent performing digital wires (and digital audio gear in general) need not cost a fortune but probably a good idea to avoid poorly made products and be aware that wires are often still subject to significant noise and resulting "distortion".
Of course like with all things there are good value products and others that do not offer as good value for most.
However, value is largely a personal judgement. If someone thinks something sounds or is better the value exists for them. The question is how many see the value in any particular product.
Also it is usually the case that the best made products tend to cost more. How much that matters.......well like most things it all depends.
Not quite so cut and dry...
Having said all that I tweak most anything that needs it but with digital cables specifically I buy good quality wires from reputable sources and have yet to have a reason to doubt my digital wires. I do not think I have any costing more than $20 or so.
"My question is to all of the people who feel that cabling and equipment has no effect on the sound quality of the music..."
"That a $100 system sounds just a good as a $100,000 system."
"My question is then why is this one of your hobbies? Why would you be involved in something that is ( in your opinion ) just fleecing us out of our hard earned money? That this is one big corrupt industry...."
Well...perhaps you need to read more than the past ten posts. This thread is NOT about the audio industry nor the audio "hobby" nor audio systems; it is about the audio cabling industry that preys on those with some sort of an audio quality addiction that causes them to ignore science and get sucked in by slick marketing, bright and shiny cables and other butterflies and rainbows.
I recently bought a slightly used Oppo 105D and the guy threw in an HDMI cable. When I was hooking it up I noticed the directional arrows on this "Chocolate" brand HDMI cable. Recognizing that scam, I googled it and found it on Amazon for 90 bucks. A digital cable for 90 bucks! I read review after review from people saying how much better both the audio and video quality were from this one meter DIGITAL "Chocolate" cable. Even most of the "audiophiles" who empty their wallets on analog cables know that in digital signals, it is all ones and zeros and either thy arrive or they don't. Probably the best example of the "audio placebo effect."
There are plenty of reasons why folks don't hear the differences in cables. The cables are not connected in the right direction, cables are not broken in, the system is not sufficiently resolving, the listener's hearing acuity is not what he believe it to be, there are mistakes in the system (out of phase, etc.), test material in reverse polarity, system in reverse polarity, the reverse expectation bias in action. Things of that nature.
I’ve had many different cables and get absolutely say there was a difference. It wasn’t as simply as low vs high price though. Some mega expensive cables sounded horrible and some cheap ones sounded great. Factor that in with system symmetry and the listeners ears and things can sound very different. If it sounds good to you that’s all that matters. I can also say that I had a pair of generic solid core copper cables that I personally thought sounded great, but when I changed my amp/preamp they sounded horrible. Swapped back in my old pair of elrod silver signatures (expensive) and it was an amazing difference. At the end of the day try some different cables and get the one that sounds best to you, regardless if it's cheap or expensive.
people can be intelligent, and get duped into giving excessive money for a product that cannot possibly "work as advertised" when they lack technical knowledge
No doubt technical knowledge is the key to avoid being duped.
I guess everyone can decide for themselves at what point the "money spent vs. system enjoyment" curve diverges from the "money spent vs. hear a difference" curve.
At what point would you prefer to listen to music than to listen for differences?
jetter: it’s not a valid test given the way the human brain takes audio impulses in through both ears simultaneously and processes them together as a sound field...if you do the test in this way, the results would be different than the result of uniformly using one cable pair or the other on both L and R channels regardless of which cable pair is the better one having nothing to do with price.
jSbach my friend did that , you are right, his ears were so different than mine, he loves bass and hated brightness, he drove me crazy, 20 yrs ago all I hear is no bass, too bright.Listen skeptics about cables, there is 30 days money back guarantee or 60 days , if you think or can't tell the improvement just return it, if you really like this hobby , you might miss something that's out there.I was skeptic too, but when I audition with open wallet and mind , then I heard the differrence , but for those who can't hear , the ,difference one day you will.
OK, here's a whole new idea, which when I thought of it was kind of a joke, but now not so sure. For you who have no imagination or sense of humor or exploration, don't read further.
Why not see what happens if you use one of your ultra high end speaker cables or interconnects on one channel and a lesser on the other, see what you do or do not hear. Maybe reverse same after a week or two.
What a relief viz. the amplifier topic,....I can ditch all this expensive audio gear and cables and grab a boom-box or a Bose Wave Radio and have the same quality sound!!! Thank you to the cables don’t matter folks for pointing all this out and helping us out!!!
Good news for anyone getting ready to purchase an expensive amplifier! Since amplifiers are indistinguishable from each other, buyers will now have even more money to spend on expensive cables. This is obviously good news for expensive cable manufacturers too. Geoff, I am curious, are Walkmans (aka, Walkmen?) also indistinguishable from each other, since they do not require cables?
You guys sure know how to crank out a laugh or two in this thread. I like how the OP bailed out and has not returned? Since the Emperor has no clothes make certain his cock is covered in the least. Yes, pro-cabling can be used in a home Audio environment. As above, most dealers/retailers, sadly, do not know Music nor know how to set-up a system.
While were getting down to the nitty-gritty, let's not forget the many, many slight variations of the human ear itself, and how its shape affects how each of us perceives sound. I was listening to music the other night, and for some reason, I began to play with the ear auricle; bending it slightly forward or back. It's incredible how much the sound of music changes while doing this. The sound was much brighter when bent slightly forward, whereas the sound seemed to lose a lot of high end frequencies when bending slightly back. I'm sure this info is nothing new, but then again this is all re-hashed at one time or another. Happy Listening!
Should we all decide, as shadorne has, to enclose our speakers in massive, flat wall cabinets, thus destroying any hope of time coherence, to use parametric equalizers to grossly alter the audio signal, and to consider electronic drums our audio reference, it is entirely possible that the deleterious effects of dielectric absorption (time smearing), capacitance/inductance/resistance and RF/EMI on the signal moving through our speaker cables would be inconsequential.
Regarding the possibility that audio components can be designed to be insensitive to cable differences, in the case of line-level analog interconnects Atmasphere has described the design criteria which would accomplish that. And he has offered what I consider to be compelling proof of his contention. See the first of his posts dated 3-22-2013 in this thread. Also see my follow-up question dated 3-27-2013, and his response thereto.
Unfortunately, though, it seems that for whatever reasons the designs of the majority of high end audio components do not meet one or more of those criteria. And my impression is that it is more common for pro audio equipment to do so, presumably in many cases as a consequence of the need for that equipment to be able to drive long cables.
And regarding sensitivity to speaker cable differences, as Ralph (Atmasphere) has said in a number of past threads that will be minimized, at least, if the speakers have high impedance and if the cable length is kept short (as would be facilitated by the use of monoblock amplifiers).
I don’t need to quote authority. The whole basis for design of equipment is to reproduce the source signal accurately. A filter is designed to modify the signal and runs entirely counter to the purist approach - it is a band aid best used sparingly and best avoided if at all possible (if you want to hear what is on the recording that is). If filtering is needed then there are Equalizers or tone controls dedicated to that - these are much more flexible in that they can be adjusted to suit a variety of situations or needs.
Guess what - in pro audio for live music events they use EQ and other active filters to control the sound to get the best sound for the venue. I have NEVER seen a pro audio sound engineer run around with dozens of different sounding speaker cables and interconnects and then seen the engineer change them on the fly to get the desired sound at a particular venue during the tour. It is just plain Ludicrous. Horses for courses. Cables are supposed to make connections as transparently as possible. Guitarists will use different pedals or stomp boxes and different guitars - they don’t travel with a panoply of different sounding 1/4 inch cables!
If folks here can't understand or refuse to understand what is plain and simple best practices in the industry then just accept you like expensive cable filtering tweaking for fun and recognize it is a not a better or more reliable approach to the highest quality sound - just the most awkward and expensive way to modify the sound.
dynaquest, it's Soo's livelihood, but it's not mine. I don't get paid to write my reviews. I am fully aware that it is counter-productive to do so, but I also do not wish to be encumbered by the politics of the industry.
I do not subscribe to the importance of break in of cables. I'm not impressed by a method that purportedly yields significant changes when you can do so immediately by swapping cables. That is not readily apparent until you actually DO comparisons. So, you can take me off your reviewers to condemn list in those regards. :)
Shadorne: you commented, "I don’t discount Doug’s findings but the whole concept of cables or interconnects being used to affect sound is wrong. Properly designed audio should minimize extraneous effects (wires between components)." I ask, says who? Please quote the authorities who have proven that cables are not to be used as tone controls (and imo much more). Last time I checked systems can have any element altered to improve performance. Since when are cables off the table in terms of an element of a system to manipulate to improve performance? Due to theory? That's wonderful, but in actuality, in the real world they are highly effective.
Your argument regarding Amplifiers and different internal wiring, topologies etc. is invalid. You concluded, "Given what amplifiers can do it is logical that ordinary bits of wire can and SHOULD do even better in being transparent to the source signal." Note that all other components in the Van Alstine ABX Comparator review, though differing in schematics and construction, were easily discerned. Amps are unique in this way, and they do not hold that property in the real world as there is no practical way to level match them from system to system.
Regarding your assertion that one should seek better quality gear; How good of equipment do you think you would need to overcome the supposed build quality issue you present? Perhaps$24K in Pass Labs monoblocks, maybe about $35K of VAC pre/amps, Simaudio, SST, Van Alstine, Music First, Wells Audio, Empirical Audio, Coda Technologies, Ayon Audio, Moscode, Jones Audio, Einstein, Pathos, etc.? I have reviewed these all, and ALL of these are sensitive to cables of all sorts. I have never encountered ANY audiophile gear that was insensitive to the use of cables, thankfully! If any gear was I wouldn't want to use it, as it would be garbage. I have had conversations online with Nelson Pass and other designers about such things. It's quite fun, actually!
You guys simply do not believe it. So be it. I'm not going to debate it forever. :)
I don’t discount Doug’s findings but the whole concept of cables or interconnects being used to affect sound is wrong. Properly designed audio should minimize extraneous effects (wires between components).
Amplifier manufacturers can design amps to high tolerances of THD and low Intermodulation distortion such that most amps are indistinguishable in ABX testing DESPITE being made from different wires and of different lengths and often slightly different topologies.
Given what amplifiers can do it is logical that ordinary bits of wire can and SHOULD do even better in being transparent to the source signal.
My conclusion is that audiophile wires are being deliberately designed and fabricated to act as an equalizer or filter!!! If they were designed to be transparent to tight tolerances like amps then they too would be indistinguishable. After all we put a man on he moon and none of this is rocket science.
So I don’t refute the result. However that audiophiles are using audio cable filters to modify sound is totally ridiculous in my view. I would recommend buying better equipment in the first place - equipment that sounds good without audio filtering - rather than trying to band aid bad sound with additional filtering. If your equipment is well chosen and well matched then it will sound great WITHOUT filtering.
zkzpb8, thank you for referencing that article! I was the author of that article, and let me tell you it was a fascinating experience! I went to the point of putting my subjective impressions to the test literally, even though as a reviewer it would have caused a crisis in many respects had I not been able to distinguish cables, or other components, blindly.
I was willing to put my reputation on the line as a reviewer in order to confirm or disconfirm my opinions. That is but one reason why I hold no esteem for someone who is so self-confident and chintzy that they will not spend a couple hundred dollars or take some time to conduct simple comparisons.
There are two kinds of audiophiles, those who talk and those who build systems. Those who build systems get a lot better at it than those who talk. :)
The surprise regarding amps was confirmed by Richard Van Alstine, who in use of the ABX Comparator obtained the same results; level matched amps were indistinguishable. However, we do not level match when switching between amps, so it's a moot point.
One of my big conclusions after that review is one does not need blind testing to hear differences in cables. If the two cables sound similar, move on, because you will encounter ones that sound quite differently. If you are not able to hear differences at all, then stick with swapping components and speakers.
I expect skeptics to discount my findings, even though I took pains to be precise and forthright. So be it.
zkzp: This fellow, Soo,has an extensive website that does exhaustive reviews of tons and tons of audio products with a staff of ten people. Clearly this is his livelihood and he somehow makes a living doing this. It is no secret that reviewers like him, and those in major audio magazines, rarely (if ever) publish a bad review - or that product maker will no longer send him products to review. With cables/wire/interconnects/power cords, a review MUST say that there is a positive sound quality difference in order for it to be a positive review. Accordingly, Mr Soo and his staff do so...and as a result are NOT unbiased reviewers.
I read a couple reviews on cables and in one the reviewer mentioned "dramatic and eyeopening" differences once the 24 and then 120 hour break-in periods had elapsed.This "break-in" of wires is just another woowoo, magic theory debunked by science.
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