Which USB reclocker is as good as the Innuos Phoenix USB?

@lordmelton thank you.

My future purchase will depend on how long I can wait for the Phoenix to appear on Hifishark :). If it is too long I will go the DDC way.

It would be very interesting to know how SOtM USB performs in comparison to the I2S after a week.

I noticed that the DDC you listed doesn't have a reclocker. The I2S interface will transmits the clock with the data to the DAC. The DAC could then benefit from being driven by a better clock improving performance.

@tjag That's correct, no re-clocker.

I used a Mutec 3+USB for several years using my laptop as source and it served me well but it can't play DSD. I now use an Aurender N20 as my source.

The Musetec 005 clocks internally and when I tried the Mutec with it, well it was superfluous. Adding an expensive LPS to the DDC gave an excellent result and proved to me that USB to I2s sounded better than USB alone.

I'll keep you updated with the SOtM but I couldn't recommend an Aurender N20 and the Musetec 005 combination highly enough.

@tjag 

As an alternative to relying on USB, have you considered a Streamer/DAC like Lumin T2? I have switched to a similar solution last year and couldn’t be any happier. 

@tjag

i have no clue... 👍, just here making trouble... or am i making a point? 🤔

posts have date stamps, right?

you are an enthusiastic researcher it seems, kudos on that aspect ... but selective reading, wishful thinking and confirmation bias are banes to a researchers’ ultimate ability to arrive at proper conclusions

wish you good luck

For inexpensive, you might consider Gustard U18 ($500). In my system, it delivers powerful, clear, dynamic analogue sounding music via tube DAC (Abbas 2.4SE+). Some serious Head Fi people reported U18 nicer sounding than much costlier Mutec MC3. I tried MC3 with my previous DAC but not compared each directly. Apparently Gustard paid attention to stock U18 USB A-A cable and it does sound very good, connected to my MacBook Pro via Audioquest USB A to C Adapter. Don’t use Apple adapter with short flexible cable which sounds truly terrible. (For casual listening to Radio France Musique off web browser and to mine the rich seam of higher definition classical and jazz films on Youtube)

lordmelton"I’ll keep you updated with the SOtM but I couldn’t recommend an Aurender N20 and the Musetec 005 combination highly enough"

The Aurender is an extraordinary, exceptional, extreme quality machine so I am surprised that you are using it with the Musetec 005, a faulty, flawed, poorly executed design that is extremely unlikely to yield, result, and deliver optimum performance due to it’s poorly thought out multiple clock design that has "competing clocks" wreaking havoc and sonic degradation through the system that results in unrecoverable loss of detail and resolution. You would be wise, prudent, and justified in seeking out better DAC alternatives there are so many today!

+1 Mutec MC-3Plus USB Smart Clock.

I don't know if some don't get it,but ALL servers ARE COMPUTERS. They all have noise producing motherboards, most run off noisy switching power supplies, and they connect rendering ports directly to this noisy motherboard. They also use the clocks off motherboards, you'll never get quality rendering out of these computers they call music servers. Certainly, they have some advantages over regular old general purpose computers, mostly in form of optimized operating systems, and most attend to motherboard noise in various ways. But to realize big gains over gs computers requires going to music servers that do quality rendering and/or separate streamer which requires adding a switch if not already  incorporating one. The high end server is likely the superior means of doing things, simple and optimized all in one. I'm talking $10K up servers, and some of these don't even do highest quality rendering. So, we can then go to separate streamer, who cares about quality rendering within server at this point, server is only going to contain music player library and do processing for music player such as Roon. So then we need to do the quality rendering in streamer, I think this is the way to go for many, lots of good streamers and lps to power them, spend like $2k for variety of servers, power it by lps, then streamers all over the place in price, all likely preferable to crap rendering off server motherboards. The streamer will generally have advantage in noise as its such a simple circuit compared to complex server motherboards, and you'll nearly always have superior clock to the motherboard  clock on non optimized servers. Get an lps for streamer, good to go. By the way, streamers ARE COMPUTERS as well, just simplified to serve far fewer purposes.

I  just don't get the continued fascination with all the rendering cleaners, reclockers, filters, blah, blah, blah. Do the job right with getting the rendering done optimally in first place, the dac usb board, if good one, will do the rest of the job.  You can't do any better than getting these two things right, simple, direct, optimized. Or do as Latik says, take care of the streamer from within the dac, then you only have to concern yourself with server rendering.

I understand many are mislead by the many good reviews of these 'band aid' items. @tjag The guy with Devialet has so much complexity with his streaming setup I can't make heads or tails of it. As mentioned previously, good reviews likely due to lowered noise floor with these devices, hell, I've seen guys daisy chain these devices, most report positive outcomes. The point I'm trying to make is people are spending far more money than need be for less than optimal results. I don't doubt people are hearing better sound quality with these devices, just better ways to do it then complexity and the marginal gains people getting with these devices.

I'll continue to repeat, these devices are only band aids. The INITIAL rendering is perhaps the most important process in streaming audio, it is the first in line in passing music signal, get it wrong and you'll never hear full potential of streaming. You cannot REPAIR or FIX what you got wrong in first place, the incorrect timing and noise produced DURING  the rendering process cannot be taken back.

I'd suggest for anyone not currently optimizing rendering, dump the band aids, get a server or streamer with optimized rendering and report back on sound quality. I bet everyone will have larger, more organized sound stage, and more natural, analog like presentation, some may also experience more low level information. All this assuming one's system has sufficient resolving capability.

And I have experienced the difference between proper rendering vs usb decrapifier in that at one point I had Uptone USBRegen, thought it nice addition until I experienced decent rendering via SOTM SMS 200 Neo.While the Uptone not the last word in usb filtering,it was easily bested by SOtm which is also not last word in rendering. Beyond this experience, I've learned from greatly informed and knowledgable streamers and designers. Put that together with informed logic and you'll find this is valid path for obtaining optimal streaming sound quality.

@tjag and all,

Is there any reason you can’t mix and match re-clockers with DACs?

Let’s say I have a Denafrips Pontus ll DAC, is there any reason I wouldn’t be able to add a Phoenix DDC to it?

Thanks in advance.

JD

@curiousjim That would not be a problem, provided you have a USB input and you are feeding from a USB output, but it would probably be better if you chose one of the Denafrips DDCs first because they have clock connections.

Then if you really wanted more re-clocking you could put a Phoenix in front of them. Maybe you would get some improvement, you’d have to try.

Holo audio Titanus. 

I recently purchased a PhoenixUSB.  My first impression following breakin was that it was very good - more separation, soundstage, and focus.  But I thought it might have need a tad “HiFi” sounding, but still better with than without.  I then bought a PhoenixNET.  This device perfectly completes the PhoenixUSB.  This device calms down the sound, and makes it totally natural.  It gives the music a solidity and a confidence to it.  I can’t imagine one without the other now.

That said, I agree that if you have a top end premium streamer that handles the clock already, then I’m not sure it’s worth it.  In fact, you could argue that it makes more sense to just go with a top end streamer rather than buying a PhoenixUSB.  With the PhoenixUSB you must use a top notch power cord along with the streamer, and you will need a top notch second USB cable.  So for all of that cost, it’s not THAT much if a stretch to go for a top end streamer like the InnuOS Statement.  In retrospect I think I might have done that instead, and done without the PhoenixUSB.  Still would have got the PhoenixNET though.

@nyev,

you are spot-on. It does though irk that innuOS makes you buy two power supplies and 2 clocks for more or less the same purpose, doesn‘t it? And adding the $6-7k to the DAC budget might have significant benefits as well…

@vinylfan62 

+1, especially when combined with an Etherregen upstream

“Holo audio Titanus.”

IME, devices like these are nothing more than Band-aids…very similar to putting a lipstick on a 🐷

As @nyev and @sns pointed out, why not buy a better streamer that negates the need for these band-aids.

@lalitk 

In my experience there are many ways to attain Nirvana. And sometimes little bits help…

@antigrunge2 

I know you employ at least half a dozen of these nifty gadgets in your system. And I’m not questioning their effectiveness, I am just advocating buying or upgrading to better gear for higher gains than minuscule ones. 

Nyev gets it, do it right way from beginning of chain, no need to waste money on band aids.

op notably silent

guess it is what happens when noob comes here for confirmation of biases, wanting more info down the rabbit hole... but doesn’t get what he wants to hear... 

The assumption that more money leads to better sound is often faulty. @mahgister has often made that point beautifully. And digital isn’t analogue where simplicity wins anytime because of transmission losses.

lalitk, consider the reverse. Why spend a ton more on a Streamer or DAC to get the same performance that a low cost USB dongle gives you? And perhaps the dongle improves even the best sources. I wouldn’t know. I don’t buy the really expensive stuff. 

The assumption that more money leads to better sound is often faulty.

 

more than one thing can be true at the same time

budget systems, well assembled, expertly set up, can sound very good, bring tremendous enjoyment, have enduring qualities

but more money, spent wisely, will yield better sound, better music, even greater enjoyment -- if properly attuned to the owners’ tastes

the above are not contradictions, they co-exist in reality... the fun (and expertise) in this hobby to put together gear that brings us musical enjoyment is to be honest about what we like, spend $ wisely up to our comfort level, find our own sweet spot

it is about the music... creating our window onto musical performances to bring us happiness

“Why spend a ton more on a Streamer or DAC to get the same performance that a low cost USB dongle gives you? ”
@vinylfan62

Except it doesn’t, I have tried and tested many tweaks in my system. Again, not saying they don’t improve the sound but a $80 USB dongle won’t magically transform a laptop to a level of well designed dedicated streamer or server.

At the end of the day, do what makes you happy!

+1@jjss49

The Wyred4Sound Recovery is another value-priced option currently on sale, lowered from $199.00 to $149.00. Used with different DACs or directly from laptop into Expert Pro’s own DAC, I fancy it offers a slight/ subtle sound improvement with a touch more clarity. It certainly is not a case of night and day improvement.

From a logical perspective, it would seem to me that money could be spent more wisely when considering expensive re-clockers, unless of course one doesn’t care about cost and can easily afford it. I would suggest that most high-quality DACs have excellent clocking solutions within the architecture already, so any improvements should be subtle. Words like ‘dramatic improvement’ would suggest that the asynchronous DAC with it’s own re-clocking chipset is not up to par. Carefully engineered DACs that use great components should not sound dramatically worse, than an external re-clocker imvho.

These dongles do work but it's very much on a case by case basis. I bought an original IFI iSilencer a few years back when I was ripping CDs and got a poor result from it when using it in series with my USB cable.

Fast forward to last week I found it when going through some old stuff and put it into one of the spare USB inputs on my Aurender and I was so surprised that I bought a new version too.

So just inserting them into the empty USB outputs does have a good effect decrapifying, again using them in series with the USB cable has poor results.

Not sure how it compares to the Unnuos Phoenix reclocker , but the Mutec MC-3 + USB could be a viable option to try. 

@timo62 Yes you can use the Mutec but it only has USB in, no USB out.

These means you can't play native DSD.

BTW I would be interested to hear from anyone who has compared the IFI iSilencer to the Audioquest Jitterbug. Thanks

Ideon Audio 3R Master Time Black Star.

+10 for  Mutec MC-3Plus USB Smart Clock.

I prefer AES to USB , even with my Innuos Phoenix in the system (Bryston BDP 3, Holo Audio May). AES link sounds more real in my system.

I’m very happy with my Chord Mscaler. 

@rfagon interesting comment.

Yes, I read in several places that the AES sound is more natural than the USB. Although, it could be DAC dependant also as seen in the review below.

Roasty wrote:

With my Rockna, I prefer AES over i2s, and i2s over USB. i2s has sweeter highs and tighter punchier low end, but AES has a more natural and layered sound and better textured bass. USB sounded quite sharp up top but also felt kind of a "flat" presentation.

I have all three (i2s, aes, usb) hooked up to my Rockna so I can do comparisons or swap connections when I feel like it.

But with the Holo May, I prefer USB over the rest.

The AES sampling rate is on par with Coaxial and less than USB/I2s. Wouldn’t the lower sampling rate be an issue for you?

Any experience with the I2s?

@axeis1 

Here is an acknowledgment for the M-Scaler 

number1sixerfan wrote:

I will say, the Phoenix USB reclocker definitely made a difference in my system: blacker background, which I think leads to the increase in perceived detail/separation. But it was not a huge effect. A bit smaller of a difference than say the m-scaler made for me. Still enjoy having it, but not necessarily a must have for me (I would say the m-scaler is a must have in comparison).

With regard to the importance of using a high end streamer vs USB reclocker, here is a good insight

Ciggavelli wrote:

I’ve had a few streamers (from budget to TOTL), and I found that adding the Innuos PhoenixUSB makes an improvement on all of them (even my Antipodes K50). People are going to disagree with me, but if I had to choose a streamer vs a reclocker, I’m choosing the reclocker. Streamers make a big difference solo as well, but I feel the reclocker solo makes a bigger difference.

I have a very high end streamer now (Antipodes K50), and it definitely is an improvement over my previous ZenithMk3, but I keep it around mainly due to the UI and the massive amount of storage. I had several Zenith Mk3s break on me (yes, multiple units). The Zenith UI is not great and you have to send the unit back to Portugal to upgrade your storage (which only maxes out at 8tb, vs the 24tb you get with the K50). As much as I love the Innuos PhoenixUSB, I will never buy another Innuos streamer until they fix the UX issues, increase the storage, and allow the user to switch out the ssd themselves.

Honestly, I was fine with going from my gaming PC to Phoenix USB to M-scaler. It sounded great. Solo out of my gaming pc wasn’t as good. Adding the K50 was probably a 15% increase in sound quality, but a 100% increase in UX. Still at $15k, it’s hard to give a wholehearted recommendation. I 100% think the Innuos Phoenix USB reclocker is a must buy. I will never not have a reclocker again. It was a big difference for me (but perhaps the power out of my gaming pc was very dirty).

I’d personally prioritize other purchases over a streamer, given that you already have a reclocker. I also do not recommend using Innuos Streamers, given my bad experience with them. Antipodes is amazing though. If you are looking to get a streamer, make sure to look at other companies other than Innuos as well.

Here is Antipodes company's recommendation with regard to the best output. Of course it is meant to be applied when using their own gear.

About Ethernet vs USB vs Digital Outputs

Many DAC manufacturers insist that their Ethernet input is best, and we are often asked why we favour Digital Outputs over USB. Confusion arises because in many cases the user is faced with a music server and a DAC that both support a range of possible interfaces between them. The user naturally wants to know which type of interface sounds best.

But the issue is not about alternative types of connection. It is actually about alternative solution architectures. For example, using Ethernet means that the Player (endpoint) is in the DAC; using USB means the Player is in the music server; using synchronous connections (I2S, S/PDIF & AES3) means the Async to Sync conversion and re-clocking is in the music server.

Your choice of connection shifts individual roles between the music server and the DAC. Where each role is better to be performed depends on the actual music server and the actual DAC.

Please read our Architecture page for a simple explanation of how there is no hierarchy of better/worse sounding connections, and what it really means when you decide to use one type of connection over another.

@gkr7007 thanks for the suggestion

Koso on audiophilestyle.com tested the Phoenix USB against the Ideon 3R Master time and the Denafrips Gaia.

On 3/14/2022 at 5:12 PM, Koso said:

Phoenix USB arrived today. Starting burn in. Will report my findings after one - two weeks. Also will do the comparison with another reclockers (Ideon 3R Master time and Denafrips Gaia). Stay tuned.

He chose the Phoenix over the other two.

Posted May 27

On 5/27/2022 at 8:08 PM, beautiful music said:

So are you end up letting Gaia go or am I missing thing?

Yes, that’s the plan. PhoenixUSB is doing magic in my setup.

@lordmelton

Hope this helps

MusicFidelity wrote:

Those conventional USB filters like Jitterbug and iFi tend to ‘colour’ the sound to some degree, some like the ‘analogue’ signature but I don’t. It makes the music less engaging and seems to me there’s a roll off in the highs.

Those USB Regen like Uptone ISO Regen (I’ve tried) and Holo Audio Titanis don’t seem to effect the tonal quality but takes away the ‘layer’ and let the music simply ‘breathe’ through naturally. It don’t seem to correlate very well with technical aspects. Some DAC has already built-in a high quality USB input, some even have isolation too. I think those cheaper DAC will benefit more on SQ if they use USB Regen. Below is interesting test on ISO Regen.

Check blakep too.

Please write about your SOtM USB Ultra vs I2s comparison if you have time.

@tjag The above experience  isn't definitive in streamer vs reclocker  superiority as the Chord MScaler doesn't have optimized usb board, really meant for BNC input. I bet tables turned using dac with optimized usb board.

Antipodes is actually good platform for trying various schemes, optimized for both streaming or server only.

Always keep in mind quality of usb in dac is critical to determining best scheme. Doesn't make sense to reclock prior to quality usb board clock in dac,  does for inferior dac usb.

“Yes, I read in several places that the AES sound is more natural than the USB. Although, it could be DAC dependant also as seen in the review below.

Roasty wrote:

With my Rockna, I prefer AES over i2s, and i2s over USB. i2s has sweeter highs and tighter punchier low end, but AES has a more natural and layered sound and better textured bass. USB sounded quite sharp up top but also felt kind of a "flat" presentation.

I have all three (i2s, aes, usb) hooked up to my Rockna so I can do comparisons or swap connections when I feel like it.

But with the Holo May, I prefer USB over the rest.

The AES sampling rate is on par with Coaxial and less than USB/I2s. Wouldn’t the lower sampling rate be an issue for you?

Any experience with the I2s?”

======================================================

I don't know if sampling rate capability would be an issue (for PCM recordings).

USB sounds less real than AES to me, with or without the Phoenix in my system.

I’m going to listen thru USB again with and without Phoenix, on PCM and DSD recordings.

…..sorry, no experience with I2s.

@rfagon very interesting. I am looking forward to read the results of your comparisons.

@sns

@tjag The above experience isn’t definitive in streamer vs reclocker superiority as the Chord MScaler doesn’t have optimized usb board, really meant for BNC input. I bet tables turned using dac with optimized usb board.

You stated the following: "as the Chord MScaler doesn’t have optimized usb board".

Please define what you mean by "optimised USB board" and provide references (links) to your statements, otherwise your statements are not verifiable.

In the the M Scaler manual both the DUAL BNC & USB INPUT support the same highest sampling rates. Check section "Output sample rate settings 4.5"

The M Scaler USB is supported with galvanic isolation. Here is what the M Scaler manual states:

Galvanic isolation 6.2

Galvanic isolation involves isolating the power rails of the data USB input, allowing for greater sonic performance.

The Hugo M Scaler features a Class 2 Type-B USB input with this protection. Galvanic isolation also features on the dual-BNC outputs.

@tjag Galvanic isolation is good, what about clocking and power supply on usb input. Generally, best usb boards supplied by companies like Amanero, XMOS, provide all three of these critical needs for optimized usb input on dac.

@sns

Always keep in mind quality of usb in dac is critical to determining best scheme. Doesn’t make sense to reclock prior to quality usb board clock in dac, does for inferior dac usb.

This advice you gave is way easier said than done. In fact it is perhaps impossible to follow for people on normal income. You know how I know this? Because this is according to you sns.

Here is what you wrote few days ago in the thread "Holo Audio Titanis":

sns

2,225 posts

07-07-2022 at 03:32pm

Not surprising in the least. Like I’ve been saying the rendering capabilities of the vast majority of servers out there second rate. Nearly all usb, or any port rendering will be improved by various filters, decrapifiers or external streamers.

The vast majority of these servers not meant to stand alone, require these external devices to hear real potential of dacs and/or streaming in general.

 

@antigrunge2 I bet the Innuos Phoenix would be upgrade over the Titanis. The fact the Phoenix even exists is testament to Innuos understanding limitations of their server’s rendering capabilities.

Are you kidding me sns?

You gave the highest praise to the Phoenix USB, because you knew most of what is out there is not good enough. Nearly ALL DACs and the VAST majority of streamers according to you. Yet the advice here is to find that unobtainable elusive perfect DAC and streamer. Money no object of course.

@sns

You didn’t provide any references, you never do. That in addition to the above I wrote. I am done listening to you.

@tjag  Wow, you are one confused person!  

Many, many dacs have optimized usb inputs, look for XMOS, Amanero or proprietary schemes, not hard to do and doesn't cost a fortune.

I stated many nice streamers out there, preferable to usb decrapifiers, reclockers since they provide these services plus superior rendering to that in most servers. I'm not saying get audiophile server, only that streamer will provide superior rendering vs the server.

You really have a problem with reading comprehension. I could provide a wide range of streamers, servers, dacs that do all of the above very nicely, and doesn't need to cost a fortune. My own streaming setup would be considered relatively cheap or expensive depending on what its being compared to.

I've had a single and constant criticism in posting on streaming. That being server rendering is far from optimized in most servers. You don't need to take it from me, read experiences of other experienced streamers, many over at audiophilestyle forum.

As for interactions with you, I"m done, you need confirmation for your biases, won't get it from me.

Many (if not most) modern high-end streamers, DACs etc. use the xCORE200 32-bit USB input processor designed by XMOS which has up to a 100 MHz sampling rate on the input stream.  So for example if you are imputing a 96kHz stream that equates to an oversampling rate of greater than 1000X, giving the system plenty of time to decide if it's a one or zero before it goes onto the I2S Bus. This is the modern approach we recommend.

@sns 

you're being kind

had a sense this person isn't to be taken seriously, certainly proven out with more blabbering in successive posts