Which USB reclocker is as good as the Innuos Phoenix USB?

@jjss49 

op notably silent

Wish it had stayed that way...

HI EVERYBODY, #tjag 

For my point of view, I notice the Phoenix USB actually not only having good reclocker. it also have very good x2 built-in Linear Power Supply. That’s why the Phoenix is that good with only USB (no DDC).

- I’m using iFi ipurifier3, also notice have to combine add-on their iDefender (USB power/data splitter), with their flagship 5v iPower Elite plug into iDefender. lastly USB cable is 0.7m long the iFi Mercury 3.0, this is how the ipurifier3 can shine with these setup similar to Phoenix USB concept. it’s clean USB power & RECLOCK.

Jorjlien,

enjoy music.

Has anyone noticed the new Innuos Pulsar streamer/re-clocker has a Phoenix lite USB inside? 

@tjag Well I finally sent the SOtM tX-USBultra back. It just ended up making everything sound different. That's the problem when you get to a certain level, music doesn't necessarily sound better or worse, just different. The SOtM with all the add ons is an expensive piece of kit and I tried it with a master clock too.

All in all you could easily spend upwards of $5-6k to fully implement the SOtM and that's if you have a master clock already.

I believe money would be better spent on high quality USB cables.

Thank you very much @lordmelton for the update interesting test. You have impressive gear and you use the best components, hence the high price tags :).

All in all you could easily spend upwards of $5-6k to fully implement the SOtM and that’s if you have a master clock already.

It will be interesting to know what you will try next I will follow your posts.

Perhaps the next logical step in your system is to try the Phoenix. From the reviews I found the quality of the Phoenix output beats everything else. Your Aurender A20 is 13000 euros 3000 more is not much in comparison. Getting it from the second hand market will save a lot.

@klh007 

Yes indeed. 

Pulsar

Instead of SPDIF and AES/EBU outputs, the PULSAR offers an optimized USB output to take sound quality to a whole new level by incorporating a PhoenixUSB Lite Reclocker. 

Both the Phoenix and the Pulsar borrowed from the Statement 

The Statement already contains both the USB regeneration capability delivered in the Phoenix, as well as Ethernet regeneration.

@jorjlien 

We won't really know without a comparison :).

With the obvious deficiencies of USB as an audio connection one cannot but wonder why better connections have largely been ignored by server engineers. Might that relate to the ability of asynchronous USB to slave the server‘s clock to the dac?  Hard to explain given otherwise clearly superior characteristics of I2S, AES/EBU and BNC. Not  even to mention fibre…

@antigrunge2 those deficiencies are ones you believe but they are totally unfounded. There can be groundloops when connected to lower featured DACs, but they are easily eliminated for a few hundred. It's far better to send data than data and clock.

@antigrunge2

Other than the obvious advantage of asynchronous connection you pointed out, I can think of couple of reasons why USB still considered a better option for servers. There is no standardized connector with i2S protocol, some uses RJ45 and others using HDMI. Both AES and BNC (SPDIF) has sample rate limitations (upto 192kHz) unless you’re using dual AES outputs which is very rare. Not to mention jitter which if not addressed properly can become a detriment to a bitstream.

IME, The Ethernet based DAC/Server all in one device is the way to future. The brilliant designers at Merging Technologies and Aurender has proven that you don’t need an external or separate server with ginormous processing power to run Roon Core or to run your favourite player software to hear music files. The whole separate server from end point (renderer) is a propaganda by ROON to fool people into spending money and jumping through hoops with tweaking gadgets to get data stream from Server to End Point (player or renderer). Just think about it, how many folks are benefiting from this grand scheme of running a Roon core on a separate server.

@lalitk

Substantially in agreement with you. Ideally you‘d have an integrated Server/Dac with an integrated analogue attenuator and a very high quality clock. Given the output voltage of normal dacs, I don‘t believe there is a point for a pre unless the power amp has unusually high input impedance. The point about the clock is very material: I have had very major benefit from using a LHY Audio Ocxo switch AND a 10m controlled Etherregen to clean up the Ethernet signal into the server as well as  reclocking the actual DAC conversion.

My comment on the vagaries of USB relates both to noise from the contained 5V DC line and to ground level and RFI/EMI incursions. Many dacs to this day don‘t have galvanically isolated USB inputs (I use Intona Isolator and cables) and using dual USB cables with a separate 5v LPS again has yielded major benefita

@antigrunge2 

I couldn’t agree with you anymore on the efficacy of high quality clock in a high quality DAC/server/Ethernet chain. I am using one with my Merging +player. 

The following point is definitely more in line with using devices not optimized or designed for streaming high resolution audio. 

“vagaries of USB relates both to noise from the contained 5V DC line and to ground level and RFI/EMI incursions.”. 

Ideally you‘d have an integrated Server/Dac with an integrated analogue attenuator and a very high quality clock.

This solution would be ideal, but expensive making it impractical for many.

Check the Innuos Statement which is a streamer only at $14000

Custom-designed Ethernet and USB Re-clocker

Not fully satisfied with existing USB and Ethernet re-clocking designs, Innuos designed in-house their own boards for this purpose.

At the heart of the design are 3 principles: The use of very high-precision OCXO clocks for timing the signals, extreme care in powering important components preventing cross-contamination, and extremely short paths between components.

The Innuos is not exceptionally expensive as the Aurender n20 costs $12000. The Aurender alone is more expensive than my whole system as it is now :). I mean it is just a hobby... for now lol.

Here is an interesting list of the I2S disadvantages. It was not designed for communication over cables. The limitations sound serious.

Drawbacks or disadvantages of I2S bus

Following are the drawbacks or disadvantages of I2S bus:
➨It is not intended for data transfer via cables.
➨I2S protocol will have synchronization problem . This is due to difference of propagation delays between clock line and data line.
➨It does not have error detection mechanism. Hence it can cause error in data decoding.
➨There is no standard interconnecting cable and connectors for I2S bus. Different manufacturers use different connectors.
➨It is used for inter-IC communication on the same PCB.

@antigrunge2

I have had very major benefit from using a LHY Audio Ocxo switch AND a 10m controlled Etherregen to clean up the Ethernet signal into the server

I guess you are referring to the benefits of cascading the clocked switches in series right?

The LHY Audio Ocxo switch is good and affordable, I bought a used Etherregen switch for a slightly cheaper price. Does the LHY have any extra benefits over the Etherregen? Because I was planning on cascading two Etherregen switches.

Check what they say about cascading switches (translated from German):

AQVOX SWITCH SE Audiophile High-End Network Switch LAN Isolator

Cascading SWITCHES in series:

AQVOX Switch
OK - we have a strange situation what we are still investigating.
For our switches it makes sense to chain them up. But not for short distances, eg 1m and below it is contra productive, less dynamics a bit matte.
But for longer distanced eg longer than 2m LAN cable between the switches improves the sound quality in deed. Yes.

I have the reclocked, LPS fed Etherregen directly feeding my Innuos Zenith mk3. When I added the LHY Audio switch upstream of the Etherregen, there was a further significant improvement in dimensionality and impulse response. If you daisy chain 2 Etherregensnyou may get similar benefits. Pls note that you can’t though feed both with the same LPS since you’d effectively be breaking the moat.

@tjag 

Here is an interesting list of the I2S disadvantages. It was not designed for communication over cables. The limitations sound serious.

There are many theoretical reasons why not to use I2s but in practice I2s works just fine. You should keep the cable length to 40-50cm. I've successfully used longer cables but found super short cables, although advised by many, don't work as well. PS Audio recommend 50cm, check out their forum.

There are many USB or Coax to I2s converters to try and it's relatively easy to get custom I2s cables configured to your requirements.

@lordmelton Yes, there are many good reviews on using the I2s connection.

But I don’t think the I2s path is a PhoenixUSB killer.

This reviewer preferred the Phoenix to the Denafrips Gaia DDC

On 5/27/2022 at 8:08 PM, beautiful music said:

So are you end up letting Gaia go or am I missing thing?

Yes, that’s the plan. PhoenixUSB is doing magic in my setup.

By the way, GoldenSound wrote this about the Gaia

Overall, the Gaia is a great DDC with perhaps the most comprehensive feature set of any I’ve tested.
Those wanting the absolute best performance should still look to the Singxer SU6.

Magnahifi released their Mano ULTRA mkIII Music Super3 Streamer. It has a Farad super3 power supply. €1295.

The prices are getting higher, but with time there will be more reviews and comparison and things will get clearer.

When I had a W4S MS1 Music Server I used their USB decrapifier and it helped but not as much as the ISORegen.  I also found using 2 ISORegens back go back being even better.  Sold the MS and bought an Innuos Statement and sold the W4S and ISORegens and the LPS's that powered them.

My DAC is a Terminator Plus that prefers I2S so I tried a $600 Denafrips Iris DDC and clocked it with the Terminator Plus.  To my surprise the Iris completely transformed the USB.  Even without clocking it clearly improved the USB from the Statement.

If your DAC takes I2S and you have a Phoenix try a DDC.

@anzaanimalclinic
Thank you very much for your feedback. You have a great team doc they look like a wonderful group of people. All the best to you helping our little friends :).

Blake agrees with your findings.

Posted September 22, 2020

I was hoping Srajan at 6Moons would compare the Phoenix, Gaia and some other D/D converters.

https://6moons.com/audioreview_articles/denafrips6/4/

While the review is not yet finished, in his review of the Denafrips Avatar, Srajan notes that he did compare the Phoenix, Gaia and through extrapolation to another review, the Mutec MC-3+ USB. While the comparison was not perfect in that he compared Phoenix going to the Terminator Plus usb input, whereas the Gaia was going in to the Terminator Plus I2S input (there was no way around this since Gaia doesn’t have USB output, and the Phoenix only has USB output), the ranking of best sonic performance was:

1. Terminator Plus + Gaia with the Terminator Plus "clock out" feature engaged upstream to the Gaia.

2. Terminator Plus + Phoenix

3. Terminator Plus + Gaia without Terminator Plus "clock out" feature engaged.

4. Mutec MC-3+ USB

Dante Rivera compared his Terminator USB vs I2s in this YT video. The I2s is best. However, this seems specific to the Denafrips DACs. For different DACs I think it depends on which interface is implemented best.

Both Koso (whom I referred to earlier) and Chameleonracks have the Holo Audio Spring 3 DAC. They preferred the USB interface over the I2s. They use the USB interface in combination with the PhoenixUSB and Intona USB Isolator,  respectively.

I will contact my DAC (Musician Aquarius) manufacturer to know which interface they recommend.

I found very helpful information here Musician Phoenix DDC Review

Sandu Vitalie compared the I2S vs USB on the Musician Aquarius DAC.

II. Musician Phoenix + Musician Aquarius via I2S

The audible difference wasn’t only immediate and apparent as it was with a Singxer SU-6, the difference was actually bigger to my expectancy levels.

On its own, Aquarius is a mighty fine sounding DAC, certainly up there with some of the nicest R-2R DACs I’ve tried to this point, but when locking the signal via I2S from the Phoenix, there was a serious jump in resolution and ultimately, dynamic range.

I would never call the Aquarius as muddy, grainy or soft sounding via USB, but it felt that way when I started my comparisons. 

I2S is better than USB in the Aquarius.

Through the discussions in this thread I started thinking that the Aquarius implemented the I2S port better than the USB, since it was said to be designed by the same group that designed the Denafrips DACs. I believe it is the case now.

Sandu  also  compared the Musician Phoenix DDC vs the Singxer SU-6

Musician Phoenix ($1699) VS Singxer SU-6 ($750)

When Phoenix replaced it, I have felt a massive intake of fresh air, like I opened windows towards my music. Micro-details hopped on board and I could better see the contour of the notes compared to the SU-6.

Leading edges appeared by a tiny bit sharper and I could easier follow their trail from inception to decay.

With Phoenix, the key word was focus, as it was moving the spotlights towards the smallest nuances and what was already impressive on SU-6, felt by a hair clearer on the Phoenix.

In my case, Phoenix changed the fate of three high-performance DACs, some were only marginally improved, while others felt like listening to higher tiered versions of themselves.

Besides repelling all types of noise and improving the pace, rhythm and timing, Musician Pegasus became highly energetic, Chord Dave a lot smoother and relaxed than ever before and Aquarius a lot clearer and 3D sounding.

Apparently if I want the best results then I can't get away with using the cheaper Singxer, or the Mano ULTRA mkIII Farad Music Streamer. 

The best solution in my case is to buy the Musician Phoenix DDC or an equally competent DDC.

Just for laughs check this 😂

This is the Gaia

And this is the Phoenix

Musician Phoenix? Must be a Chinese Gaia knockoff… This thread was supposedly about the InnuOS version

There was an update due to this: Musician Phoenix DDC Review.

This is an update specific to my dac (Aquarius), basically it states that I2S is the best for the Musician dacs. I wrote about it 3 posts up.

By the way Musician and Denafrips DACs/DDCs are developed by the same team, hence share many similarities.

I thought that was it, the best performance for my dac is achieved by a good DDC using I2S and not the PhoenixUSB.

But then I noticed something a reviewer called Blake wrote, which brings the ball back to the PhoenixUSB court.

According to Blake and another reviewer on this thread the best performance of the Terminator Plus is achieved using I2S from a good DDC clocked by the Terminator’s clock-out signal. However, the issue with the Musician line of DACs is that they don’t have a clock-out signal. Hence, Musician DACs can’t satisfy the first condition in Blake’s list.

I wrote about it in this thread: musician aquarius r2r dac any good?

Here is a curved ball.

The Musician Aquarius/Pegasus DACs don’t have a clock out for syncing like the Terminator. Therefore, " if " the ranking Blake wrote (below) were correct, then:

Aquarius/Pegasus + PhoenixUSB (USB interface)

would rank higher than

Aquarius/Pegasus + Gaia without its "clock in" feature engaged. (I2S interface)

Oh dear lol

 

the ranking of best sonic performance was:

1. Terminator Plus + Gaia with the Terminator Plus "clock out" feature engaged upstream to the Gaia.

2. Terminator Plus + PhoenixUSB

3. Terminator Plus + Gaia without Terminator Plus "clock out" feature engaged.

4. Mutec MC-3+ USB

Hi.  A slightly off-discussion question. 

Assuming I bought the best reclocker (the Phoenix?), does the quality of the USB input cable matter very much? 

Clearly, I wouldn't put an Amazon Basics between my Zenith Mk3 and the Phoenix, but I really can't afford another FTA Sinope to partner the Sinope I currently have which feeds my DAC

Here is the answer 🙂

20:34 Impact of USB cables on DDCs

According to the "Passion for Sound" video:

USB input cable to DDC doesn't matter

USB output cable from DDC MATTERS

#lollipopguild

#Tjag

for my x3 USB reclocking of chains, the first USB does matter from my experience. 

Hi,

     Did anyone try using Phoenix with USB cables that DON'T CONTAIN +5V power wire?

     +5V wire is not needed, when DAC itself powers USB input.

      This is a major sound upgrade and any serious system should have no +5V wire in USB cables.

      Does any one know can Phoenix be used with such cables?

             Thank you