Which R2R DAC UP TO 1K: ORGANIC, FULL-BODIED, DEEP SOUNDSTAGE
Hi all and hello George,
I`m new to Audiogon and as I have seen from earlier discussions some of you seem to be THE absolute R2R enthusiasts for many years. May I ask you for some help regarding this topic as I`m out for a new dac which should be R2R?
I`m coming from a Lector CDP 707, which is sold now as I got over to streaming, but I bloody regret it. The Lector had all I ever wanted, tonally he played on the warm, full-bodied side, organically with a lot of flesh to the bone and authority/slam and I loved the expansive soundstage, not overly wide but very deep. Bass was punchy enough even for EDM which I listen to mainly.
For the moment I`m using my former headamp as a DAC, the Questyle CMA 600i, with a DS chip on board, AKM 4490. I wouldn`t call it a catastrophe, but of course the signature is lightyears away from the Lector.
When looking for a new DAC I saw that Lector Strumenti offers some too, but I`m afraid my budget is too small with up to 1K, so this is not an option.
In respect of the Lector using the PCM 1704K I thought about (ab)using some vintage gear, for examle the Denon DVD 5000 with 4xPCM 1704J on board too (the Denon has a digital input and could be used as a stand alone DAC too), but I was told the analog stage is crappy and so I got away from this.
Still on my mind is the old Naim DAC and the Bifrost 2 or a used HoloSpring but for the moment I got no possibilitys to test them in my system (I`m using a tube packed preamp and as a headamp the Emotiva BasX 100 with the jumpers set as my "heddphone" requires some juice) and sure I`m open to any other ideas.
So, what would be your favourite devices when looking at my desired sound and knowing what (tiny amount) I got to spend?
It should be able to handle 24/96 btw, but my main concern would be an extremely deep and wide soundstage and a darker organic tonality.
Yes Michael, your Lector you should have kept, as it had the best R2R chips, 2 x PM1704-K "K" being selected and a cheap easy to get SF-HD65 laser. These PCM1704 and the 1702 were the best and last of the R2R Multibit dacs chips made. Now they’re all discrete R2R Multibit some better some worse.
My Linn CD-12 had 4 of the PCM1704K’s in it with a great sound, full bodied yet tight and very dynamic, great boogie factor.
That Denon yes uses the PCM1704 but the lower PMD100 HDCD filter chip, and it’s laser VED0378 is getting well over $100 and hard to get.
I now have a MSB discrete R2R and love it. R2R conversion done right just has a real live rich sound, unbelievable on good recording. But it "can" give you warts and all on the real bad ones. Where DS (delta sigma) to me is smooth and is better for bad recordings, but at the sacrifice of being just a bit of a yawn on the good ones, but it does DSD and SACD that’s what it’s good for.
@georgehifi I just found one Cary 303 through hifishark but it doesn't have a digital input. Nevertheless the reviews sound promising. The CAL' s reviews seem to be fitting too. Found one in Austria, while I'm from Germany, so not a big deal. But the price is 650 EUR and so I'm asking myself if it can compete with the newer dedicated R2R dacs, as Naims from 2010 or the actual Bifrost 2. What do you think about this?
@devilboy Never heard of Yamamoto but I will definitely have an eye on this. Really could be worth a try. Could you maybe say some words about the overall tonality and it' s ability regarding soundstage, macrodynamics, imaging and layering?
It should be able to handle 24/96 btw, but my main concern would be an extremely deep and wide soundstage and a darker organic tonality.
I have all of it except it is not darker but warm with details without end....Starting Point Systems Nos dac tda 1543....For the price perfect.....I will never upgrade because I dont sense any limitations with my audio system.... Rightly embedded this dac is a MINIMAL design marvel, look at the inside....I pay this 24 dollars on an Ebay bid.... :)
I apologize for my bragging about....But.... Some poors audiophiles must know about this marvel....It can be bought used for 100 bucks or a little more....Forget any dac upgrade after that.....
If you liked the organic nature of your Lector using the
PCM 1704K chip, you should have heard the prior MkII model that used the
TI PCM63 dac chip
.....very analog-like. I owned both.
my suggestion is the Electrocompaniet one up. Very musical and reliable. To me the Lector was a good sounding unit but a little to mussy overall in the bass. Happy Listening.
Haven’t heard one but everyone loves the Denafrips R2R architecture in their upper end. Assuming they’re driving their technology into the lower price point, an Ares II or Pontus are in your range and may please you. A commitment of course but I am seriously considering the Venus based on my Gear and research.
Enjoy your clipped dynamic range and resolving power 👍🏻 “So it appears another older technology has had a resurgence over the last 5 years and is all the rage now. R2R aka resistor ladder dacs. Pretty much all conventional Dacs these days are delta sigma. These designs used to be very popular in the early to mid 90s but gradually disappeared into obscurity. On paper these resistor ladder dacs seem to perform worse and offer less effective dynamic range (20-21bits) but people seem to comment how 'analog' sounding they are.”
Pretty much all conventional Dacs these days are delta sigma. These designs used to be very popular in the early to mid 90s but gradually disappeared into obscurity.
DS (Delta Sigma/1bit/bitstream) never disappeared, but it did replaced the last of the R2R chips for two reasons back in the 90's 00's, one was they were a "fraction of the cost" to manufacture compared to R2R and it's laser trimming. And then they could also do the upcoming SACD's in 99 (today called DSD without the SACD flag.)
But now discrete R2R is making big noises in hiend audio because it has a musicality, compared to DS. Which DS to me when playing PCM 16/44 or 24/96, DXD recordings is smooth enough, but is a bit of a yawn, there seems to the "boogie factor" excitement missing that get you tapping.
It's said by MoJo Music DSD v PCM
When a PCM file is played on a native DSD/SACD DS/single-bit/bitstream converter, the single-bit DAC chip has to convert the PCM to DSD in real-time. This is one of the major reasons people claim DSD sounds better than PCM, when in fact, it is just that the chip in most modern DS single-bit DACs do a poor job of decoding PCM.
PCM cd's should to be listened to on R2R dacs for the best bit perfect presentation.
Will definitely check out the Electrocompaniet, while I am a bit sceptic about MHDT as my preamp is tube packed already. Could be too much in addition.
Denafrips, hmmm. Don’t they use the soekris architecture in general? I found their 1421 a bit to thin. Not harsh or cold but not as rich and full-bodied as I wanted.
Can someone comment on the Holo Spring 2? Rare on the used market of course but everything I was reading about it sounded really good by far.
The lector having tubes also was a keeper and could have been substantially upgraded ,why did you sell it thst Is a class R2R chip you will need to speand 2-3 times to best it .yje Schiit gungner no where as natural the R2R mojo Audiois around #2500 and uses the AD 1865k and is by far the most loaded dac under $5k that's Loaded with premium modded parts,And using Descreet opamps, worlds best 9- Beloisens super regulators over 247,000 uf in filtering capacitance big transformer and hand match channel biasing of both channels ,nobody else is doing that at even $5 k .
I sold the Lector because I was an idiot! I knew he was a keeper but in the end I had around 20 CDs I like, while I'm having more than 150 albums on Quobuz which I prefer. I even asked Lectors service if they could add a digital input but they couldn't.
Now that the Gungir was mentioned several times, I'll check him out. What about the Bifrost 2 as a cheaper alternative which I could afford new?
Mojo DACs, well, really excellent I guess but for the moment not my budget.
On SBAF they already call 'em Convert 2 light... ;] The Modius definitely got my attention, together with the Modi Multibit which might be the cheapest R2R DAC around.
George I really missed this, sorry! I tried to find the Cary everywhere, but the only version I saw on hifishark does not have a digital input. Seems the 303 without 200. Will keep on looking for the right version. What do you think would be an adequate price? And could the Denon DVD 5000 compete with a new analog stage? It doesn’t have the K’s but the J’s and I could get it for just 300 Euros so there would be some room for mods. Thanks again!!!
$800 was fair for that one, seeing the boxed condition. I don't think the Denon would compete without serious working on thew I/V and output stages, and then it's still has just a DVD laser/mech.
Thanks George! I just found a Lector Digicode 2.24 which was offered to me for 1.150 EUR. Seems to be one of Lectors first dacs and should be around 10 years old. Price is still negotiable a bit I guess.
Actually I didn't want a tube dac in respect of my tube preamp, but in this case things are different. Does maybe anybody have experience with the 2.24?
Looks good, I'm not for one with DAC's that use output tubes as they need to look at high impedance input loading from the following equipment. Ask him if that "250ohm" output impedance is constant that it says it is from 20hz to 20khz. If it rises at 20hz you will need for it to see 100kohm input impedance amp or preamp, or install a much larger coupling caps on the tube L&R output stage.
George, it doesn't seem constant and the input impedance of my preamp is 47 kOhm. Guess I will be looking for something else. As you're a fan of the NAIM CDP 555 - do you also know the old naim dac? They came out around the same time.
Denafrips, hmmm. Don’t they use the soekris architecture in general? I found their 1421 a bit to thin. Not harsh or cold but not as rich and full-bodied as I wanted.
I think Alvin from Vineshine replied a while back that the Denafrips DACs are unrelated to Soekris and use a proprietary R2R architecture.
I am thrilled with my Denafrips Terminator, but this is above your price range. From what I understand, the models down the line have a very similar sonic signature, with a little less detail and refinement. My Terminator sounds fairly neutral with a presentation fairly similar to my Schitt Yggdrasil A2, but with a bit more energy in the bass.
Very easy to listen to for long periods. Since I have my home office in my listening room, I've enjoyed listening to it for 8 hours or more a day almost every day for the past several months.
Previous DACS included Krell Reference 64 (that was a while back), Mark Levinson No 39 (used as both a player and DAC), W4S DAC2, and Yggy.
The Yggdrasil is a great DAC with excellent detail and soundstage, but it can start to sound a bit congested on lesser quality recordings. I've found I'm enjoying more of my older classic rock recordings with the Terminator than I did with the Yggy.
I'm Alvin from Vinshine Audio. I can confirm that the DENAFRIPS DACs are unrelated to Soekris.
I guess the confusion may arises due to the fact that i used to use Soekris dam1021 to OEM DAC under Vinshine Audio brand in 2016. I can relate @barrista0611 comment on the Soekris sound characteristic and i strongly agree to it as well, especially when I had a chance to compare the Soekris DAC1541 VS the Ares II.
The NAIM CDP 555 with the PS555 power supply will cost you your first born as well as your house and wife, if you can find one. The ML No.39 is a good one but the laser is hard/expensive to get if needed.
"Organic" for me means that all aspect of sound are perfectly and naturally integrated...
I know perfectly well what this word means in audio.... 7 years ago i begins my audio journey and it takes me all these years with experiments to create an "organic" sound.... You know it when you create it yourself...
But many bought it with costly components and takes it for granted indeed.... I am not in this case....
In the meantime I bought Schiits Bifrost 2 and it has all I wanted, especially it brings out real instruments in a really organic way. My understanding of this term in respect of hifi is a presentation that makes you feel like watching and auditioning an organism and every single note and microdetail is just presented as natural as this organism ever could be. I don't want the sound to be a try or a copy of behaving like an organism, I want the original taste.
One of my best desicions regarding this topic was buying a pure silver interconnect cable from the french manufacturer Ocellia. Everything gets integrated in a natural and almost magical way. Now, together with the Bifrost I finally found the perfect solution.
So, what were your major steps to create an organic sound?
I makes a very great number of experiments, homemade materials or device, very lost cost one, and succeed in creating a continuous increase of S.Q. in the 3 dimensions of audio : mechanical(controls of vibrations and resonance) electrical,controls of the noise floor of the house grid, and mostly acoustic of the room in a passive orthodox and less orthodox active way...
my motto is: Never upgrade anything before embedding everything rightfully....
Guess what: after any good audio system is rightfully embed, the upgrade urge disappear in the pure music listenings....
I'm a little surprised to see no mention of the Metrum Amethyst, which I understand is very well regarded, but it seems to meet your criteria and might be worth investigating.
Metrum isn't bad. I've had six over the years. They're not bad to hold you over until... Keep your radar on for a used Yamamoto YDA 01. If you can ever find one, jump on it ASAP. EASILY more natural, wide, deep and just plain real sounding than any of the Metrums I've had ,(Hex, Onyx, Musette, etc), and the three MHDTs one had... Including the highly regarded Orchid.
@devilboy i am also looking for a DAC and come across this thread. I am considering the following: Audio GD R8 SMSL m400 Musical Paradis MP-d2 MK IIIDenafrips Pontus
I am looking for a smooth DAC. Tried Toppings DX7pro and don’t like it, it has too much detail and analytical, and sometimes harsh in my opinion. About the Yamamoto YDA01, I seems it is quite old, right? So, it is still good compared to the latest technology? Any opinion or guess how it will compared to my short list?
I really like Yamamoto brand for some reason. I have been thinking to buy the A08s, but still haven’t bought one because of the 2W. So, it is good to hear their YFA01 is good. But it seems it is very rare in the used market.
Yes, the Yamamoto uses the older and now out of production, (I believe), 1794 chip but hey, natural is natural. If you can't find one, consider an MHDT Orchid.
I have not heard an Adagio or Pavane so I can't comment on them.
Cee's new company looks interesting, though. Sonnet Morpheus, I think. DAC with volume control.
Devilboy, I asked because I have owned Hex and Pavane L3 and still own Jade and Adagio (both which have VC), and while the Hex and Jade sound good, the Pavane L3 and Adagio were/are clearly a step up in naturalness and full-bodied tone. The Yamamoto has a good reputation from owners and others who have heard it. I previously owned Lector CDPs, and the newer model (at the time) used the TI PCM1704 chip which, while nice, did not match the
naturalness of the TI PCM63 chip used in the older model. The guy who purchased the older unit with the 63 chip told me I would regret selling it.
Please remember the Denafrips Pontus ,Venus, terminator all use a new the same processor board with clock upgrade and DSD upgrade ,for $260 us very easy unplug ,plug in new one for any dac before March 2020. Pontus with big seperate linesr power supply and 4 resistor ladder noticably better detailed then Ares2 ,$1000 more, the Venus is the sweet spot it uses same resistor of terminator .005 tolerance ,vs .01 for Ares2 and Pontus, all are great value and built excellent I just bought the Pontus excellent but I heard the. Venus and terminator plus each is sonicly more defined deeper soundstage better detail micro,macro. i am saving for terminator 2 , thst being said I puts super regulator to clear up noise in my SS built computer and Jcat Femto clock usb card which makes a noticable improvement if using a pc , and putting on 5 v Sbooster linesr power to the Jcat card sounds very good . The Schiit Yggsdrasil ,and mojo R2R dac just doesnot sound as detailed and natural as the new Denafrips Pontus .$1800 a steal, if you can stretch to $2800 buy the Venus a bit better detail ,and a bit more depth worth the extrav$$. The terminator ,or the plus &4400,$6500 exceptional . I had ps audio top $6k dac snow mass ,not as involving one guy on utube says better No way 4 of us compared same day my friend at Audio get together has one he even agreed and sold his . The terminator plus will Best anything at 2+ plus it is a great dac and at 44 lbs a tank.
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