ebm6,290 posts06-08-2020 8:54amStereo 5 Skifi is a nasty overpriced business with a nasty attitude nobody should buy anything from them.Good luck!!This is worrisome i will be up all night thinking about this.
Which one to choose between two 80K$ tube amps?
There are two interesting 80K$ tube amps on sale at Audiogon.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9jhj0-david-berning-co-211-845-otl-tube
The first one is David Berning OTL design with output of 60 Watts.
it looks beautiful. But I had never used OTL amp yet.
I am curious how it sounds with high efficiency speaker.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa27ii-jadis-ja800-flagship-tube-amplifier-six-chassis-best-ever-made-nos-new-old-stock-tube
The second one is Jadis JA800 with 6 pieces and 400watts.
I had used JA500 (only 4 pieces with 350 Watts) from 2000 to 2002 to drive B&W Notilus 801 with utmost authority and unbelievable slam.
It was kind of lifetime experience to own this beautiful and overbearing monster.
But I could not use it during summer time in modest size room.
Thus I let it go and got Silbatone 300B SET amp to drive efficient full range speaker.
350 Watt to 8 Watt
If you have money or hit the Jackpot, which one will you go for?
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis9jhj0-david-berning-co-211-845-otl-tube
The first one is David Berning OTL design with output of 60 Watts.
it looks beautiful. But I had never used OTL amp yet.
I am curious how it sounds with high efficiency speaker.
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa27ii-jadis-ja800-flagship-tube-amplifier-six-chassis-best-ever-made-nos-new-old-stock-tube
The second one is Jadis JA800 with 6 pieces and 400watts.
I had used JA500 (only 4 pieces with 350 Watts) from 2000 to 2002 to drive B&W Notilus 801 with utmost authority and unbelievable slam.
It was kind of lifetime experience to own this beautiful and overbearing monster.
But I could not use it during summer time in modest size room.
Thus I let it go and got Silbatone 300B SET amp to drive efficient full range speaker.
350 Watt to 8 Watt
If you have money or hit the Jackpot, which one will you go for?
125 responses Add your response
Your question is interesting, but if your dealer does not bring both amps to your house and set them up for you for an extended listening period, I would shop elsewhere where that can happen. In the end, the price is irrelevant; which one do YOU like in YOUR room is the only question you have to answer. Oh, don't forget longevity of the company and availability of parts and service; EVERYTHING breaks eventually. An amp is simply a group of electrical parts that have a fixed price; anything else you pay is for R&D, marketing, and, unfortunately, hype. There are only a few basic designs for audio amps; some people mess with them, etc. I spoke to Bill Johnson at length back in the 1970's when I was one of his few dealers, and he explained that the basics of these amps are well known and have changed little over time other than through designers (like some of the ones mentioned above) tweaking something here or there. For example, Levinson used to brag to me that he used "MIL-SPEC" parts. His amps did not sound very good back then; I have no idea what Harmon makes now under his name. He went through a few designers--one died, I think--and then the company was trashed and the name was purchased. Whatever. Mr. Johnson died, and there are new people designing things there now. I assume some are better than others, as in any line of products that have different price points. The point is, whatever you pay is irrelevant; get the parts YOU LIKE BEST and ENJOY THE MUSIC. After all, building a $200,000 kitchen so you can show it off to your friends when everyone knows you eat out every meal is no different to me than buying a $200,000 stereo so you can say you have one. It used to be about the music, right? Cheers! |
mglik, Agree 100% that the Berning OTL and the Kondo Ongaku could both be considered to be uber quality amplifiers yet as you note unquestionably different sounding. I don’t see how one could be declared superior to the other. They will simply appeal to different types of listeners. Lean/cooler tonality(some might say more transparent ) OTL versus fuller body/flesh on the bone (some might say warmer) SET. Distinctly different forms of a particular harmonic distortion character. 3rd order versus 2nd order. There are devout fans of each. No right or wrong here. Charles |
@charles1dad The Berning amplifier in question can run feedback or none; being SET its distortion signature is based on a quadratic nonlinearity (2nd harmonic). In order to have a cubic nonlinearity (based on 3rd harmonic) the amp has to be entirely differential from input to output. The ear treats both the 2nd and 3rd the same way (contributes to 'warmth' and 'richness') but in general an amplifier with a predominate 3rd will have considerably less overall distortion (typically 1/10th) than one based on the 2nd, and as the distortion order is increased, the product falls off faster. This is especially beneficial because the ear is so sensitive to the higher ordered harmonics. The advantage of the Berning amplifier over a traditional SET is that the output transformer is not nearly as bandwidth limited and it does not have the saturation issues. So it can be made considerably higher power as well! |
atma-sphere, I understand that 3rd order harmonic distortion amplifiers generally have less overall distortion. But, is 3rd order harmonic distortion as easily/naturally tolerated by the human ear as is 2nd order harmonic distortion which is quite well tolerated. Some would say that in fact 2nd order Harmonic distortion is congruent with human hearing. Charles |
and those very high impedance speakers just don’t cut it when the music gets really complicated. the superb aspects of those speakers becomes just ok to good when things really start cranking and wild.Avantgarde Trios with basshorns can't do this? or the big Cessaros? Not sure I agree with you here. I think your speakers are simply harder to drive in a large room than one thinks. |
Avantgarde Trios with basshorns can’t do this? or the big Cessaros? Not sure I agree with you here. depends on one’s expectations for large scale, complicated, reproduced music. i’m not saying you are limited in musical choices with those very high efficiency speakers, only that those very large scale recordings are not the strength of those type speakers. whereas it is the strength of large dynamic cone speakers. it’s still not easy to accomplish. the only performance limitation in my room is the limits of SPL’s on the capacity of the human senses. the system exceeds those by a good margin without losing it’s grip. |
Two amplifiers that represent the pinnacle of decades of design development of two legends in the Audio world, Kondo san and Berning san. I speak from a listener and enthusiast’s perspective. Not from a technical one. I do not discount the importance of specs and technical aspects. But present the importance of enjoying the music. If someone’s tastes lean toward the “cool and neutral” presentation, the Berning is perhaps the ultimate example. If one’s tastes are more the “warm and liquid”, the Kondo may be the best there is. Both amps are highly “musical”. Perhaps the classic yin and yang. Personally, if I had the cash and inclination, I would jump at a chance to own the Kondo for $30+K less and never look back. Especially considering the “taming” of that plasma tweeter! |
I had this post to find out which one people prefer between high power tube and Small power quality tube one. I have Silbatone 300B SET with silver foiled output transformer. With WE 300B made in 40’s, it give excellent details, transparent, wide and deep soundstage. But it does not have enough headroom in my listening space with high vault. I may get horn speaker with more than 105 db/W efficiency to work with Silbatone in the future. Or I may drive using active crossover to feed only 50hz or high to Silbaton and 50hz below to my two 18 inches Scaena subwoofers. Since I had never used OTL, I am also intrigued with one that made by Atma-sphere. But I am not in a hurry since I am also happy with Line Magnetic 508 48 Watts SET after lot of tube rolling. It give enough headroom and bass control so that I may not need to use subwoofer. |
But, is 3rd order harmonic distortion as easily/naturally tolerated by the human ear as is 2nd order harmonic distortion which is quite well tolerated. Some would say that in fact 2nd order Harmonic distortion is congruent with human hearing.@charles1dad The short answer is 'yes'. The ear treats both *exactly* the same. What *does not work* is if the amp has low distortion, but the distortion it has is mostly higher ordered harmonics (5th and above). Such amps tend to sound bright and harsh, compared to an amplifier that has a predominate 2nd or 3rd. The reason that so many push-pull amps get docked for their sound as opposed to an SET is that when you combine a single-ended voltage amplifier with a push-pull output, that type of topology tends to produce a noticeable 5th harmonic, which makes the amp less musical. The only way I've found to get around that is to avoid that sort of topology- either go entirely single-ended and get that 2nd harmonic or go entirely fully differential and get a 3rd harmonic (although at about 1/10th the level that the 2nd shows up in a single-ended circuit). Since the ear is relatively insensitive to either other than contributing to 'warmth', 'body' and the like, this seems to be the way to go since you can't put enough feedback on a tube amp to really tame the distortion properly (or most solid state amps for that matter)- you wind up just making it brighter and harsher. |
@atmasphere Ralph, thanks for the discussion on this. Helpful, educational and appreciated. The only way I've found to get around that is to avoid that sort of topology- either go entirely single-ended and get that 2nd harmonic or go entirely fully differential and get a 3rd harmonic (although at about 1/10th the level that the 2nd shows up in a single-ended circuit). Since the ear is relatively insensitive to either other than contributing to 'warmth', 'body' and the like, this seems to be the way to go since you can't put enough feedback on a tube amp to really tame the distortion properly (or most solid state amps for that matter)- you wind up just making it brighter and harsher. |
explains (to some extent anyway) what/why I heard differently between my SET (class A triode 300b) and my 100 watt push pull( class A/B pentode tubed 6550) amplifiers. Some degree of 5th harmonic distortion presence.Yes- nearly any amp along those lines will have some of that sound. But of course its more complicated than that- if the amp uses feedback, if its ultralinear or not, if its using triodes and so on. I'm not a fan of interstage transformers but if used in a fully differential topology even then you still get the 3rd harmonic without that pesky 5th showing up as much. You'd think by the application of feedback that you could erase that signature, but in almost any tube amp you simply can't put in enough feedback to pull it off (too many timing constants, especially if transformers are involved). |
Shkong, I would get a pair of Avant-garde Duo Mezzos. Check out the YouTube “Garrard 301 vs Studer”. One of the best recordings on YT. The system uses the AGs pushed by a Nagra 300B amp. Since you already have similar silver trannys to the Kondo and a very nice 300B amp with WEs, a super efficient speaker will produce a great system able to fill any room! Don’t think you would need the subs and crossover with the AGs. Simple is always best. Not to knock the Jadis since the Jadis sound may be the ultimate PP tube beauty, but 500lbs and 6 chassis!! |
@mglik Thanks for your recommendation. I had listened to many Avant-garde speakers at dealer showroom. They have too much coloration out of horn to my taste. I am going to get WE vintage horn system. The problem is they cost 300k$ or so to get a good one( not replica, no recommendation of replica please, I want genuine vintage one). I had better stop spending money on small gadgets and save money for my dream one. |
What particular vintage WE horn system are you looking at? Are you looking for a complete vintage system, or are you looking to build a system from vintage drivers and horns? I have heard many systems built from vintage drivers and horns and these can be very nice. But, as far as sound quality goes, there is no reason to avoid considering replicas made by G.I.P. Laboratories; they make terrific replicas of Western Electric field coil drivers. These replicas cost about as much as genuine vintage drivers. They make a few updated and improved versions of certain Western Electric drivers, but, these are exorbitantly priced. I have heard the upgraded version of the 597 tweeter and it is very good (the upgraded tweeter sells for $58,000 for a pair). I have a sort of modern system, based on old school design. It uses twin 12" woofers with alnico magnets, and pleated paper surrounds in a Onken bass reflex cabinet. The midrange compression driver is a Western Electric 713b (my favorite driver) feeding a Western Electric KS 120125 horn. The tweeter is a Fostex bullet-type tweeter. I am having a crossover designed around Western Electric paper in oil capacitors built for me. I will probably also upgrade the wiring of the speaker (Audio Note silver wire). |
@larryi No recommendation for replica. I had listened to GIP in Korea but not my cup of tea. I want a complete vintage system with original box. Actually I had listened to one in Seoul, Korea 2 years ago for 2 hours and I liked it. But I could not shell out 300K $ at that time. I need to save money before searching one. My Lansche 4.1 is pretty good for modern speaker. Thus I may wait until I save enough money. I do not consider any other options including modern horn. |
What Western Electric system did you hear? With the exception of the Western Electric 753 and 757, they did not make many complete systems. It was more the case of someone assembling a system from components. Do you recall what components or system you heard? The same can be said of G.I.P. drivers, they have to be assembled by someone into a system. How someone did this makes all the difference and you cannot judge the drivers as good or bad based on any one particular assembly. G.I.P. does make very expensive systems, utilizing their own cabinets and drivers; I have not heard any such system and I don't know what they sound like. |
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMtNSB4H5MbCvLRW_yUOEOl3WRBxcf--Jdo_iBJFwEeTH1i-rg4WsWWn5tp03-W1Q/photo/AF1QipMt44zSIw0NovqUoZCHdqHa1CNu4zUSEYxdXFKu?key=VjN The big one on the back. I do not remember parts no. No more question please. Until I save money, I do want to consider any other options. Last December, I had pulled for used Scaena 3.2 speaker at whim but have to assemble it yet. I may do that next week with help of my friend. But I am not so sure whether it will sound better than Lansche 4.1 or not. If I buy Western vintage horn, I will get advice from my buddy. He is the owner of Silbatone with many vintage horn speakers. |
shkong, Unfotunately, the link to your photos is not working. But, in any case, if you found something specific that you heard and liked, it does not matter what anyone else thinks. Whether you get it or another vintage Western-based system, you can be well assured that you can always get your money back if you later decide to sell it; Western Electric prices go up and almost never down. In the price/quality range you are looking at, it is hard to think of many high efficiency systems that I would recommend, although you could be in the market for custom designs. It appears that you have already auditioned a number of good candidates, like the JBL system and Avantgarde speakers. Good luck on your search. You certainly have the good fortune of being able to enjoy the Lansche system while search for something else. |
@larryi Thanks for your kind word. It is not easy to find WE vintage horn in original box. That is the reason why it is so costly to get one. But as you mentioned, vintage WE horn never lose its value like vintage WE 300B tubes. I bought WE 300b tube made in 40's at 3k$ 20 years ago. But it is still working fine after 10k hours. Some people mentioned Nos WE 300B may last 20-30K hours. If I sell my used tube, it will fetch more than 5k$. But I will not do it, since it is not easy to get one again. Since I am happy with Lansch 4.1, I may wait 3 or 5 more years until I save enough money to buy vintage Western horn speaker. Thomas |
@shkong78 If you are looking for a speaker that will work with lower powered amps, one you might want to consider is the Classic Audio Loudspeakers Hartsfield (reproduction). John Wolff has done a lot to improve the speaker since it ceased production, with better drivers, better crossover, sturdier cabinet, field coil operation and so on. The Western Electric stuff is collectable and classic, but does not compete with modern computer-optimized horns. It was state of the art in its day but that was before World War 2. If you really want to get the most out of your amplifier, you won't be doing it justice with a vintage horn that old!! The WE300bs are excellent- that was back when the only game in town was tubes and they had to be right; they were often placed in service as line amplifiers for the phone company, and had to hold up. Some were even sunk in the ocean embedded into the inter-continental telephone trunk cables! |
@atmasphere Thanks for your suggestion. But vintage Western horn sounds like vintage wine which has unique flavor One of my friend is the owner of Silbatone who display his vintage horn in Munich high end show. My goal is to have a nice Western vintage horn system before I die. I may try one of your OTL amp next year since I am curios how ii will sound with my speakers. |
Western Electric Audio Porn.....if you are into that sort of thing. and some definitely are. i've not personally been bitten by this bug....yet. http://www.silbatoneacoustics.com/collection.html http://www.silbatoneacoustics.com/labsystems.html |
One of my friend is the owner of Silbatone who display his vintage horn in Munich high end show.@shkong78 I've heard that system in Munich in two different years. I liked it a lot. But having also heard the Classic Audio Loudspeakers, I would go with the latter in a heartbeat. Your friend's system was inordinately complex, somewhat diffuse for centerfill, and lacking the frequency extremes (in spite of the Altec-based subwoofer). Despite that it was one of the more interesting systems I saw at the show and I took a lot of photos. If you want it for the shear size and impressiveness of how a system that old that can sound that good, I can see that. But if you simply want something that sounds the best it can for the money then I would look elsewhere. |
Dear Ralph It is hard to optimize the sound at open space in public in short time. Thus you may had been less impressed with his Western vintage systems at Munich. I had listened to the system in his listening room and modest size jazz caffe where he had spent more than 6 months to optimize the sound. Audio depends on personal taste. Thus there is no best thing for everyone. But to me his system is the ultimate pinnacle with natural timber and utmost details. Jazz vocal sounds so spooky that it seems as if they are in front of you. I had been happy with Lansche 4.1 since 2007 due to excellent vocal out of plasma tweeter. Also I had got Scaena 3.2 at whim last December. I may try your OTL amp with Scaena next year. I will use those two decent speakers until I can afford genuine vintage Western horn system. No other modern speakers are within my consideration Thomas |
I have to admit I find this puzzling. Western Electric used to be the standard fare in movie theatres and the like, but their gear was supersceded by Altec, who had much greater performance and obviously better sound. Its a simple fact that the distortion a horn may or may not have depends directly on how well the horn is formed along the ideal curves for it. There are now horns that have been built with these curves computer optimized, so they sound for more realistic. I am very aware of how tricky it can be to set up a room as I have showed at many shows (we were 4 doors down from your friend's room). But I should point out he's had that room for several years and should know at this point how to set it up. I get the part about jazz vocals sounding 'spooky' because they sound like they are right in front of you. But that is the goal of stereo in general, and many speakers can convey that quality of 'spooky' insofar as images floating in space is concerned! I'd be a bit chagrined if I could not evoke that quality from my system! |
Hello Ralph It is not easy to get the "spooky" sound out of system. Although Lansche 4.1 is not the same league as vintage western horn, it gives almost (maybe 85%) spooky sound driven by SET amp with plasma tweeter. I used to drive it with Silbatone 300b SET but after moving to larger listening space, I had been using Line Magnetic 508 SET. I had spent above my annual budget since last December with purchase of used Scaena 3.2 and hundreds of 6sn7 tubes for shootout. Next year I may try your OTL amp on Lansche 4.1 |
shkong, One thing is abundantly clear, you know what type sound you like. I believe that you will eventually have your Western Electric vintage horn system. I don’t think you’re going to settle for less. Your Line Magnetic 805 output tubes SET is praised for its organic and beautiful sound quality. It will very interesting to read your impressions of an Atma-Sphere OTL amplifier if you pursue that route. They are also highly regarded as well. No doubt two different approaches. I wonder how they’ll differ driving your Lansche4.1 speakers. Charles |
@charles1dad Thanks Charles for your kind word. You got the point right. With Lansche 4.1 and LM 508 after lot of tube rolling, I almost got the sound that i want. Only thing that i want as a final step is to get the Western vintage horn. But genuine full horn is pretty costly so I had better save enough money. I am also curious how OTL sound with either Lansche or Scaena speakers. Thus i may try Atma sphere next year which will not be very costly. Atma shpher use quad 6sn7 tubes as driver stage. After doing shootout of 6sn7 tubes, I have nice collection of 6sn7 tubes. Thomas |
For that kind of money I would expand my search and consider a few other alternatives. top end Shindo + efficient speakers Kondo (japan) Boulder Solution Audio. VAC Wavac Allnic There are others. For that kind of money, spend some time listening! don't just take the word of folks on this forum. Listen to them with properly matched speakers for each. In systems with other comparable components (sources, Pre, cables). Only then will you get the information you need to make a solid decision. |
If I had the money, I would probably get B&W Nautilus speakers, which sound right with 8 channels of about 350 wpc. To power these, I would choose the top Audio Research amps, along with at least a 1500 square foot room with about 16 foot ceilings, probably sloped up from the speakers.and a dedicated 3 ton A/C unit to keep the amps from baking me in the room. I do curently have an eight hundreds square foo room (a large portion of my house), with 9-14 foot ceilings, and it really opens up the sound, so why not go larger? Subs? I'll never know. Tubes would be changed regularly, with the old ones rotating into other systems on my estate. Of course, I would probably not use tubes, but WTF? It's a only a pipe dream, and with a pipe, who needs an $80,000 amp? |
Should not be necessary to spend $80K on jaw dropping sound. My entire rig, which includes a Koetsu onyx and Futterman OTL3s converted to triode, less than $30K. See theaudioatticvinylsundays.com “about” page. When people come to listen for the first time, they are gob-smacked. Shop wisely, keep your spending down, give the rest to police reform. |
