Which component to upgrade to improve bass control?

@gosta:

Thanks. Yes-- I'm beginning to suspect DSP may be the only solution, in my case. 

@pacoinmass: 

What you suggest sounds fairly technical but I could possibly get a friend to help. 

@ elliottbnewcombjr:

No-- I haven't spoken with Alun Yun. I've had the speakers for about 15 years, now. 

@elliotnewcombjr:

Silverline is within driving distance, so I could take them over to Alan and have him listen to them. Hadn't thought of that option. 

I bought the speakers used from a guy who'd tried them in his recording studio for just a few hours and decided they weren't sufficiently neuitral for his purposes. 

Of course, I meant to type "sufficiently neutral"...

@tvad:

Yes-- Coda is in Sac. Sorry for the lack of clarity!

I did contact the seller of the used Coda, asking about bass and he responded as follows: 

"I've owned Hegel H390, Benchmark ABH2, Pass Labs XA25, First Watt SIT-3 & Pass XA30.8 & the Coda bests them all.It sounds more clearer & high res than all of them, with better transients & layering. Better grip & slam". 

@tvad:

He went on to say:  "The XA30.8 was the closest to the Coda, as it sounded as wide, forward & musical as the Coda, but more rounded & definitely warmer". 

The above makes me wonder whether the Coda would be warm enough for my tastes. 

I second the idea of speaker isolation feet. I did that recently and it does indeed work. I hear more clarity and less boom. 

@tvad:

"Perhaps you could take your speakers to him to be checked out, and while you’re there he could hook them up in his system, where he might still have Pass Labs. Worth a call"

Good idea!  

@stuartk  I have read many of the responses before mine and although some seem helpful, I think that most miss the central point, which as I read your original post is BASS BLOOM. The two most important affectors of bass bloom are poor amp control (e.g. low damping factor) and speaker characteristics.  To improve those components you have to change something.  Just sticking with equipment that means either the amp or the speakers. 
       One possible out that would let you keep your existing components is the addition of one or two mini Subs.  Subs such as the new SVS 3000 micro ( $799 ) have gotten great reviews.  I personally own an SVS 2000 Pro and the addition of this unit to my Maggies ( MG-III ) has been lovely.  It is clean articulate and powerful and it lets the Maggies do what they do best.  The SVS has a neat phone App for customization of low pass filter and attenuation from your listening seat and they have a thirty day return policy.  Good luck.

@assetmgrsc:

Thanks. Unfortunately, I have very little room/flexibility for positioning for a sub. 

I could, however, upgrade my integrated. 

I get the best bass at my listening position...but I get good and sometimes great bass almost everywhere in the room.

Sometimes I want to listen passively while my system is warming up...while reading.

I think it's most logical to get the room dialed in first.

Given you have said no to any room treatment then what you most need is an EQ and/or room correction (which is an EQ with an algorithm).

All other equipment will PALE in comparison to what you can achieve with even a mediocre EQ, and I can't tell you how often people are astonished at the results. 

I recommend the miniDSP units, some of which have digital in/digital out (with bandwidth limits) or ROON if you want to measure and correct yourself.

Everything else is in the range of "what fuse should I buy" improvements.  Good luck with that approach.

@eriksquires:

I'm not opposed to such an approach but do all the miniDSP units include a DAC?  I very much doubt the DAC in a $250 device is going to equal my Aqua. 

http://www.thebestamp.com/Active_Crossovers_ASXs/ASX-103.php


This unit uses your current speakers and may fix your problem, it's got great user reviews. At least give him a call and find out what he has to say.

@invalid:

That looks interesting. I'd prefer to avoid tubes, though. 

In my experience with the same issue I made two changes that helped. Upgraded power cords to my amps and then added a power conditioner. I was skeptical at the thought but after the upgrades it only required one min of listening the hear the difference. The bass was clean and tight the muddy sound was gone. Even bad recordings benefited from the upgrade. 

@sgreg:

Thanks.

I tried a PSA power conditioner/regenerator and it had no discernible effect.

I upgraded power cords  a long time ago. 

A friend who's a dealer will come over next week to help me evaluate the effect of the room and of speaker placement. 

That looks interesting. I'd prefer to avoid tubes, though


I believe that model is solid state.

You look at it is n the wrong way. Maybe because you lack the knowledge what a miniDSP is doing for you.🙄

When saying:

very much doubt the DAC in a $250 device is going to equal my Aqua. 

If we take one of the many things miniDSP is able to do. PEQ for example, so when you have measured your listening space at your listening position with your calibrated MIC ($100).💰
And knocked down peaks and the biggest problems of your room and downloaded the generated PEQ file to the miniDSP so it flatten and solve the biggest issues in sound quality at your listening position.🎶

Then the truth is that there is NO Aqua or ANY external DSP no matter the price that is going to equal the sound quality at your listening position as the miniDSP using PEQ.🥇

You are trapped in a false belief that oh only that if I got a better this or that. As I tried to tell you can keep doing just that whole your life without getting anywhere. But that is maybe something you enjoy more than sound quality? So please go on.🔄

Another point is, if your problem is "bass blom". And you look at the basics for what type of principal your speaker is designed with. In this case a bass reflex ported construction. That is time smearing and a bloomy design in it self..🌼
So you say dear Mr bass reflex do not be what you are and you should try to be like a sealed or OB construction please.. because you are so gorgeous and I want that you please me.🧙‍♂️

You need to look at what technology you are using. And those speakers are probably not for you when they do not please you. And do not try to make them things that they are not designed for. 🤔

@invalid:

My mistake-- you are right!  

@sandthemall:

"I think it's most logical to get the room dialed in first"

I can't argue with that-- it makes perfect sense.

Implementing it, however, is another story. 

. . or can be, at least. 

It might seem logical. Then again it might be it seems that way because it is so often repeated.

As it happens the room problem is mainly due to being so much smaller than bass wavelengths. This creates room modes, which are what we hear as lumpy boomy etc bass. But the solution to room modes is multiple subs. Once you understand this and change from the old-school two locations mentality to a DBA suddenly a huge amount of "room problems" goes away.

The next biggest source of "room problems" is the room being made to vibrate by speakers physically coupled to it. This creates resonances and ringing that ruins a lot more than just the bass. When floors, walls and ceilings are all being made to vibrate by physically coupled speakers it smears and colors all up and down the audio band.

The solution to this "room problem" is to decouple the speakers by putting them on springs. This is impressively effective, as has been demonstrated many times.

If the goal is improved bass response then both of these should be done first, long before any of the other suggestions. DBA and isolation are whole orders of magnitude better than anything else you can do. The improvement you will hear from doing these goes does indeed greatly improve bass response, but also goes far beyond that one thing.

@millercarbon:

Thanks for weighing in, MC. 

I don't have any fundamental objection to subs. As mentioned, a friend who's a dealer is coming over next week to help me locate bass nodes. Perhaps he can also point out possible locations for subs. I've looked at diagrams for sub placement in the past and none of them resemble my room. They all seem to assume a largely empty room with nothing occupying the corners. I don't know about you but I haven't come across too many living rooms with that sort of arrangement.

As for springs, I can see how that works fine for floorstanders but my monitors sit atop target stands that are fitted with Herbie's Gliders which in turn perch on thick cement pavers. How/where would springs fit into this scenario, pray tell? ? ? 

Some miniDSP units are pure digital.  No analog.  Another alternative is to use something like Roon, which has DSP built in.

One of the beautiful things about multiple subs, the more subs the less the room matters, and the less it matters where in the room the subs go. It really is a rather pointless time waster to measure room modes. Basically, every time you move the sub it also moves the modes. Some of them however almost always wind up being in the same places. Like, almost regardless of the room the bass will be stronger hear a wall, even stronger in a corner, and strongest where walls meet floor or ceiling.   

Basically, placement with one sub is a nightmare until you finally give up and pick your compromise. With two it gets a little easier but still a major compromise. With three, not so bad. By the time you get to four it hardly matters where you put them the bass will be so good you won't believe it. 

Springs go under the speaker. What the speaker is on hardly matters. Everyone worries about stability. Springs wobble but they really do nothing to change stability, the balance point of the speaker is the same with or without springs. 

Invest in a good sub, like Rel or one notch lower but excellent value for money: HSU research. 

@tvad:

"You might call Peter and ask him about using Symposium platforms between your speakers and target stands"

In fact, I did order them but Peter could not tell me when they would be available. As it happened, I had an old Symposium shelf lying around so I had it cut in half and placed the resulting slabs under the monitors. I thought they helped at first but the system started sounding excessively dark to me and I ended up pulling them out. All I can deduce is that it was "too much of a good thing" in conjunction with the Herbie's footers under the speaker stands. I should try the shelves without the Herbie's, see how that sounds. 

@millercarbon:

"One of the beautiful things about multiple subs, the more subs the less the room matters, and the less it matters where in the room the subs go...By the time you get to four it hardly matters where you put them the bass will be so good you won't believe it. ".

This is indeed encouraging. I don't know about fitting four Swarm cabinets into our curent living room but at the very least, I'll be able to employ them in our next abode. It was actually my wife who asserted I should have a dedicated audio room, at that point. I'd be very foolish to argue with my wife!  

"Springs go under the speaker. What the speaker is on hardly matters".

Thanks for the clarification.-- I thought the springs needed to be in contact with the floor. What happens during an earthquake, I wonder? The piano black finish on the Silverlines is fairly slick. 

@eriksquires:

"Some miniDSP units are pure digital. No analog. Another alternative is to use something like Roon, which has DSP built in".

If a Swarm won't fit, some sort of DSP may be my only recourse. I'm not technically inclined by nature so I don't exactly relish the prospect of diving into the world of DSP but neither do I enjoy sloppy bass. Perhaps you can explain why some DSP units include a DAC. What's the point? 

Why not? DAC is cheap technology today, although some (me included) like to pay too much for this...

Don't be frightened. Saying no to dsp today is like saying no to cd's yesterday. It won't stop it's the future and gets better for each day. Just get on with it :-)

Now we are moving in the right direction..

When you have sloppy bass with your bookshelf of the reasons I tried to point out previous.

How does the logic work by still playing with those sloppy bass makers and also add subwoofer/s..

Will they stop to produce sloppy bass? I do not think so.. Maybe the subwoofer/s will mask it if they play a little bit louder..

(A fix if you get subwoofer/s is (again the DSP) if you measure where in Hz you have your sloppiness and if we are lucky it is the bass reflex port that is cousing the sloppy bass and for example it is maybe between 40 and 60 Hz. Then set up the x-over in the DSP that feeds the powe amps is above 60 Hz so that your bookshelfs is not playing anything below 60 Hz.)

Regarding that maybe try to plug those bass reflex holes quick and free test. It will not play that low but maybe some sloppyness will disappear.🤔

Perhaps you can explain why some DSP units include a DAC. What's the point? 

DAC = Digital to Analog Conversation
ADC = Analog to Digital Conversation
For example the miniDSP 2x4HD:
It has a analog input there you can connect the LP and it does a ADC and in the digital domain all the magic then back to analog with the DAC.

But it has several digital inputs there it does the all the magic and then to analog with DAC.

Here is some of the whys/points when this model has 4 analog outputs that you can use however you want.. 

One example is you can choose to use output 1 and 2 as left and right that goes to the power amplifier to your bookshelfs. The other two 3 and 4 can be left and right for your subwoofer power amplifier/s.

So as you see there is four outputs in this case if you "only" got a digital out from the DSP and then connected to your standard standalone DAC that usually only give you two analog outputs. What is the point with that? Rather useless in my opinion. ;)
Then you can "only" do room correction.

In the miniDSP case the two left and right 3 and 4 output is treated individual so if you have the right subwoofer on a different distances than the left one then you can time align them separately so they are aligned with the bookshelfs.

You can implement where the x-over should be for the subwoofers and bookshelves independently and offload the power amplifiers. 

And so on and on there is so many configuration and use cases..

@gosta:

"Saying no to dsp today is like saying no to cd's yesterday. It won't stop it's the future and gets better for each day. Just get on with it :-)"

Got it. Thanks. 

@optimize:

Thanks for the technical explanation. 

stuartk: Before you get involved in all the expense and to-do of all the good suggestions so far, are you using AC conditioning and upgraded AC cables? Both will really affect bass definition. Especially in multi-unit buildings. Even if you do all of the things suggested here, you’ll still need to upgrade cables to maximize the system.

@denverfred:

I live in a single family home in a rural area where each house has its own transformer. I've tried power conditioning and noticed no improvement. I do have upgraded power cables. I suppose I could upgrade them even further. 


Otherwise, this morning I toed speakers in considerably more than I'd tried before (approx 26 degrees total) and this definitely helped. 

the amp

Hilde 45

Good footers for your speakers will decouple the speakers from the room. You will get crisp bass and way smoother mids and highs. 

I think when speakers are coupled to the floor the floor itself acts as a radiating body.  But I'm no techie and not sure this is the reason why the improvement is so major.  

I know it's not intuitive, but critical mass systems make great stuff and I trust them.  I can vouch for what worked for me.  Check out the reviews. 

@kymanor1:

What amp would you suggest?

I've spoken to Jeff Wells who said the bass performance of my majestic could be improved via upgrades. 

@Hilde456:

Thanks for the suggestion. I see there are currently 4 for sale used for $1750.  Even if I could find another 4 for the same price, that's $3500. I can see putting that sum towards a new amp but am (justifiably or not) resistant to spending that kind of money on footers. 

I was also in the hunt for improved bass SQ. But separately, I wanted to change out three plugs on power chords while shortening their length, so I checked around the forums and selected plugs from Cardas, Neotec and Furutech, all "moderately" priced (for audio stuff).
Result: noticeably improved bass, deeper, clearer notes and less general bass thump. Sometimes, small things just work out. 

@stuartk     

I don't know if one would consider it a "component", but a distributed bass array or "swarm" will solve 90+% your bass issues without requiring any bass traps or room treatment. 

@jas:

My plugs are all Furutech

@tony1954:

Thanks. Millercarbon suggested the same and it definitely seems the best way to go. We plan on moving in about 5 years and at that point, I'll have  a room dedicated to audio that WILL include a Swarm. For now, however, with my system in our living room, I can see no way to fit all those cabinets into the room. I don't have room for the required amp, either. 

Having Wells Audio upgrade my Majestic integrated or replacing it with another integrated is a more do-able possibility, for the present. 

@aubreybobb Will check it out. Thanks!

@tvad:

"You might call Peter and ask him about using Symposium platforms between your speakers and target stands"

As I mentioned, Peter stipulates there should be no spike or other footer under speaker stands when using Symposium shelves under monitors. I finally got around to removing the Herbie's Gliders from under my stands this afternoon and put the shelves back under the Silverlines. Better!  I can actually follow bass-lines, now and there's an overall improvement in the sense of ease or flow of music. 

This may be enough to get me through until we move from this house and I'm able to have a dedicated, Swarm-equipped, audio room. We'll see. 

Given your options are so limited, you might need to go the DSP or equalizer route. I know the latter is a blasphemous thing on Agon, but given few options might be the ticket to helping with the limits of your situation. Usually, moving a speaker closer to a wall is a no go, but it does reinforce bass potentially. Given you cannot optimize your room etc, you can’t have the perfect situation anyway. It might be worth trying something unusual to see if you can gain something you can live with in the interim.

I assume your speakers are well cross-braced, between each pair of opposite panels. i.e, side to side, top to bottom, etc. Assuming a well-designed speaker, then that is the most important factor I have found for clean bass. I have learned this by building and testing.

On to your situation: Bass likes current. Current likes thicker wire. Thicker wire means less resistance. Less resistance means greater damping factor (control).

You said your speaker cables are 20 feet long. Resistance increases proportionately to length. So you have reduced your damping factor some.

I suggest you employ cables that are equivalent to 10 gauge AWG or better.

Since treble likes thinner wires, cables made up of many thin wires work well. I suggest using Kimber 8TC or even 12TC. A friend uses them on his Magnepan 20.7s and they do very well. Their net gauge is even better than 10 gauge.

BTW, I am about to build some speaker cables of my design, see if I can improve on what I did before. One will have 16 pairs of 22 gauge wire - plain solid core copper. This adds up to 10 gauge equivalent. I have hopes on the result.

Brandon