Which component to upgrade to improve bass control?

I guess I'd better state that I'm aware that what I'm after may simply not be possible by upgrading a component. That's fine. Just thought I'd ask, as I'm no expert. 

It seems like you have a very good integrated, and that the power it provides for your speaker is more than adequate. Bass is so much a function of the room that I would strongly suspect that if subs and traps/treatments are off the table, you have only a couple options. One, would be to partially plug the port in your speaker. I did this with my Salks and got some additional control. Another would be biwiring or biamping the speakers. I've never done that but it could gain you additional control. A third option would be to play with placement. A final option is a much more powerful amp but, there, I'd bet that 10 to 1 that the amp does not help you get what you're looking for.

And... I've experimented with speaker distance from back wall. Moving them as far forward as I can (37"), I note no improvement. 

Hi tvad-- always nice to hear from you!

I appreciate you offering advice based upon your experience with Silverlines.

As it happens, I live in the town where Pass Labs used to be located but have only heard Pass separates driving larger Zu speakers-- not the integrated-- and never with Silverlines. What I heard sound great, though.

I could just afford a used INT-25.
I could swing a used Coda more easily.  

I've long been a stubborn advocate of not buying anything I can't return, so I'd have to decide whether I'm willing to take a risk in this regard or not. 

Is the Coda similarly smooth- sounding to the Pass gear ? 

@hilde45:

Thanks for your input. 

I did try port stuffing and didn't notice much difference. And as noted above, moving speakers from original location 27" away from wall to 37" didn't seem to have any effect, either. 

I could be mistaken but I think I've read that Alan Yun recommends biwiring. The thing is, my speaker cables are long-- 20 feet. 

 What about swapping out the speakers for a front-ported design?
I know Salk offers several such models. 

@tvad:

I checked out the Sistrums and am not sure how they'd work with stand-mounts. 

@tvad:

This review of the Coda makes it sound very appealing, especially given that reviewer prefer warmer sounding gear, as I do. 

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/coda-csib-integrated-by-richard-willie/

try autoformer , that’s a pretty long speaker run, xlr w monoblocks are preferred…

Room treatment.

I doubt replacing anything will give you any improvement. Rear ported speakers can be very problematic if placed too close to rear wall. Even front ported speakers need room but less than rear ported!

Certain amps, such as those cited by tvad, are generally help to exercise greater control over the woofer drivers, which seems to be what you're after.

A more radical solution would be to invest in a pair or a swarm of subwoofers, and just take the bass produced by your monitors out of the equation.

Decouple the mains and subs if you use them. THEN you can achieve cleaner less bloated bass and eliminate the passive out of time driver effect of the floor. It just ruins the potential of GOOD (in the room) bass.

Springs, pods or suspension off the floor work..

Coupling with points or just on the floor.. you might want to rethink that one..

Boom Boom in the Room Room, not the neighbors room...

Regards

Thanks for all the comments.

@tvad:
The review comparing Pass Labs to Coda would incline me more towards Coda. Needless to say, reviews are no guarantee of satisfaction! Thanks for clarifying Sistrum possibilities. 

@fuzztone:
Please re-read original post re: room treatment. 

@yogiboy:
Yeah-- you may unfortunately be right. I may just have to live with what I've got until we move and I can set up a dedicated room for audio.  It's a bit frustrating that my $400 Schiit Jotunheim headphone amp and even cheaper Grado 225's deliver a more satisfying bass presentation than  the main system.  Perhaps it would make the most sense to invest in a nice pair of Focals and take my pleasure where I can find it. 

@tomic601:
Well, monos ain't gonna happen. Will look into Autoformer. 

@oldhvymech:

Don't have subs. 

Sand-filled Target stands sit on heavy cement pavers on wood floor with Herbies Gliders between bottom plates of stands and pavers. 

My system is very-less-than-ideally-located in livingroom. I put the pavers under the stands to lift drivers above furniture. 

The Gliders were a big improvement over the spikes that came with the stands. 

Anticables may have autoformer suitable at low coast low risk. can you locate amp temporarily between speakers w much shorter run ? i have a long run rca u can borrow. Obviously IF it’s the soeaker, none of this is going ti help…much.

low cost, not low coast….maybe..ha

Pulling your speakers out from the back wall generally helps avoid a bass bump. I would think 3 feet would be ok, but could it be that your listening chair is located in a bass node? That happens a lot when folks place their chair up against a wall (or very near one). Frankly I think, as you already suspect, that you're looking for love in the wrong places. :-)

@tomic601:

Thanks for your generous offer. Unfortunately, there's not a practical option for relocating amp at present.  

@tvad:

Yes-- I found ads for both the Pass and the Coda for sale, used. As it happens, Coda is  located an hour's drive from me, in Sacramento. 

@newbee:

Listening chair is positioned 4 feet from back wall, which is actually a half-height wall, separating living room from dining room. 

and worth moving chair just a whisker…nodes are where you find ( hear ) them….

@stuartk I have front ported speakers. I’ve learned that the physics of bass is so room-dependent, that if pulling them out as far as you have doesn’t address the issue, the location of the speakers ports won’t matter. Bass radiates.

Listening position and speaker placement are the biggest levers. I solved my bass issues with a multi-front assault -- multiple subs, shift of positioning, and treatments. Given your specific situation -- and I’m heeding all your constraints -- what I would do is measure the room using a mic to see where the bass humps and nulls are, and then positioning things to try to mitigate. Keep in mind that various other things in the room which can be moved or shifted might change some of the bass response. A bit. The physics of bass is really quite obstinate.

A diagram or description of your room and dimensions would help.

Your speakers are very important in determining Bass control 
but your amplifier controls Everything,your power supplies and current on demand , my Coda amp for example has over 120 amps on demand ,and over 80k in capacitance and a Huge very 
low noise potted 3kva transformers very few amplifiers  out there can match this  even at Double the cost and doubles down in power to 2 ohms , and 40 output-bipolar transistors which is very substantial .
when you buy a amplifier ask questions and see what’s under the hood ,many have small power supplies and very limited current on demand,just compare -and made in USA 10 year warranty and Very reasonably priced vs the competition  and sounds Excellent !!

Room treatment will do more than any upgrade to component. That and EQ if possible to do final touches. 

Speaker placement...

Wasn't your last sonic dilemma due to moving the speakers a few (not noticed previously) inches?

DeKay

A Hegel h390 has terrific bass control. Damping factor of 4000. 

When I got my Absolare Signature integrated (unfortunately outside your budget), I realized I no longer needed a subwoofer, the extra bass output was shocking.  It’s 150-200 wpc, so that’s not the whole story, but more power helps.  So a really powerful amp can totally change the bass game all by itself.  

Isolation devices between speakers/stands and floor is a must for tighter better bass response in many cases, including my own.

@tvad:

He might but as I know I can't afford to buy a new amp from him, it doesn't seem quite ethical to ask him. I once explained up front to a speaker manufacturer that I couldn't afford to buy new but would like to hear his speaker. He agreed and then after I'd been there and gone, sent me an angry e-mail castigating me for wasting his time!  

@hilde45:

Ok-- good to know port location is not necessarily a fix. As Audiogon doesn't allow attachments, how would I post a diagram? Please explain.
I have a friend who's a dealer and might have the necessary equipment for measuring my room for nodes. I'll contact him. 

@dekay:

No-- that was kind of embarrassing -- I'd forgotten I'd placed some old Symposium shelves under my monitors. As I already had Herbies Gliders under the stands, I suspect it was to much of a good thing-- too much damping. 

@jrbirdman333:

Thanks for the suggestion. The problem is, due to the price, I'd have to buy the Hegel used and unless I could get it from The Music Room, I wouldn't be able to buy it with a return option. I typically only buy components I can demo.  

@audioman58:

Please see my response to jrbirdman333, above. 

I have a very boomy bass in my room. It is the room/speaker interaction that is at fault. I believe you have three choices.
(1) You should try alternative speakers. In my room only very few speakers would work without a boom. I demoed many in my room. The B&W 804 did not boom. The Boenicke W8 or W5 did not boom. 
(2) Adopt DSP. You can do this via using Roon to stream, or if you are only CD based then via a DSP module such as DSpeaker anti-mode. This can fairly simply be set up to reduce the bass output in the frequencies that stimulate the bass nodes in your room. Or buy an amp with DSP built in. 
(3) Change to an amp, such as a Luxman, with tone controls. This is a more blunt version of achieving (2).

A Hegel h390 has terrific bass control. Damping factor of 4000.

Damping factor, in spite of the name, has very little to do with membrane damping because there is speaker’s own coil in series for the braking current. 8 ohm speaker has about 6 ohm coil impedance at low frequencies. Adding amp’s output impedance of 0.2 ohm (DF=40) or 0.002 ohm (DF=4000) won’t make much difference (6.2ohm vs 6.002 ohm).

Get a sub or an amp with tone and/or loudness control. 

@duckworp:

1) Yes, I could. It quickly gets expensive shipping back and forth across the country, though. I went through this routine when shopping for a high-end acoustic guitar last spring and guitars weigh a lot less than a pair of speakers!  

2) I've of course heard of the DSpeaker units but have no idea how effective they might be. I could talk to Walter. 

My impression is that amps with built-in DSP are generally more of the home theater variety. I've read that built-in DSP can have unintended  detrimental "side-effects" on SQ. 

3) I had  Schiit Loki and was unable to manage the sloppy bass. I'm not confident an amp with tone controls would be any more successful. 

@kijanki:

Your comments are way over my head but thanks for contributing. 

@cakyol:

Please see #3 under response to duckworp. 

I have great bass. I don't have a dedicated room and I even got great bass from an amp notoriously known for very modest bass (Carver TFM). 

The secret is the room. And you don't really need specialized audio accoutrements.

Now it helps to have a larger...symmetrical...rectangular room with an acoustic (popcorn) ceiling. But you can get pretty good bass with less than ideal circumstances.

Remember the room telegraphs the surfaces you have in it. Lot's of pictures behind glass, tile floors, large TV screens, glass coffee table? Expect bright, smeared sonic picture. 

One of the best things you can do if you have hardwood or tile floors is to put your equipment rack and speakers on a long rug that spans the width of the entire front wall. 
A runner that goes from corner to corner against the front wall is not only amazing for bass but timbre too. The corners are important for bass. this is in addition to a large central rug.

People who say their speakers sound better at lower volumes...or that they 'lose composure' when they crank up the volume? That's mostly the room.

In a well treated room, you should be able to crank it up big time and it should sound great and not seem too loud.

You can make a small room feel bigger to a speaker by being sneaky with your decor.

My wife and I don't always see eye to eye about decor. But I'm a creative director. I can come up with some solution she will like.

Family pictures are in the dining room not the living room. Wall art is oil paintings on canvas or tapestries or wood carvings. Lots of books and LPs help. 

The TV has it's own smaller sound system and is on the side wall...it gets covered by a wool throw blanket when I do serious listening.
The aggregate of these little things make a huge difference. 

The stuff I mentioned above will not only help bass but everything else too.

Good footers for your speakers will decouple the speakers from the room.  You will get crisp bass and way smoother mids and highs.  

For 5 grand I would strongly recommend critical mass systems footers - LS 2.For me they meant the end of those 'wince' moments.

In my opinion the improvement is better than any equivalent costing component upgrade.   Check reviews on what's best forum.  These footers are pretty much the culmination of the CMS owners craft, developed over his lifetime.  At an affordable price in the context of what they do.

Best wishes

@sandthemall:

Thanks. I will apply your suggestions to the extent that I can. 

BTW, I have noticed no worsening of SQ when cranking volume. In fact, it's easy to get carried away and end up listening louder than is healthy for my ears. And, the sound is definitely not too bright. The bass is sloppy, though. 

@aubreybobb:

Thanks for the suggestion. Unless someone sells these with a return option, I wouldn't try them, though. I don't have $ to burn. 

You are missing the point completely.

A DSP will have far greater benefits than downsides. Lazy audiophiles hide behind "oh adding a component in the signal chain is devastating" OR "converting AD then back DA is devastating"

But you need a calibrated measurement microphone using REW on a computer. And there is a steep learning curve.

That is what drive 90% of audiophiles away.. it is hard.. oh i just put a spring or cement block under the component.. that is easier.. even a 10 year can do that..

Ok i have probably offended some people but in my system I could get RID of components when adding a miniDSP 2x4 HD. Removed a passive preamp, and a DAC. So win win.
And digital in and only a DA conversation..
It is only the TT that uses the analog in and reap the benefits of the DSP implement rumble filter + room correction + crossover + other benefits that is greater than lazy purist that is justify their approach that they are in the analog domain the whole signal chain.. the same people are hunting after the right component/cement block/spring. 😉🤣

You can grow with your external DSP when later on getting a subwoofer.. Get a subwoofer without DSP cheaper (it is in the wrong location in your system and is limiting what you can use it for..)

My external DSP are doing seven different sound enhancing jobs that can’t a built in DSP in a sub do..

So those seven tasks will beat any spring or cement block in sound quality improvement any day. Plus you are able to CUSTOMIZE the sound the way YOU like it. Plus you can have four different presets depending on mood, album or whatever.

You will be knowing what your system are doing in the measurements and exactly where the weaknesses there is and what to target plus fix some of your room issues. There is so much to learn and to gain but I will stop here.

I do not know what is harder.. adding vibration control and swapping in and out components (in retrospective) all your life or learn and evolve. (Just trying to be brutally honest)

Keep on listening! 😍🎶

Hello,
besides the obvious of a better preamp and DAC. You need the Puritan PSM156 power conditioner. I would upgrade the power cord to the unit. This will cost $3300. This is a no brainer. The next thing is your power cords. Make sure your amp can breath. I am going to recommend the Nordost Frey power cord. This will really help get better bass. If you can swing it go to the TYR 2. The gauge and the way it is made gives unbelievable control over the bass. If you live near the Chicagoland area this store will let you try before you buy:
https://holmaudio.com/
All of this helps the sound of the whole system. Plus, For another $275 you can add the Ground Master City to the Puritan for dead black noise floor. And it’s all plug and play. I hope this helps. 

Hello,
besides the obvious of a better preamp and DAC. You need the Puritan PSM156 power conditioner. I would upgrade the power cord to the unit. This will cost $3300 total for the PSM156 and the Puritan ultimate XX. This is a no brainer. The next thing is your power cords. Make sure your amp can breath. I am going to recommend the Nordost Frey power cord. This will really help get better bass. If you can swing it go to the TYR 2. The gauge and the way it is made gives unbelievable control over the bass. If you live near the Chicagoland area this store will let you try before you buy:
https://holmaudio.com/
All of this helps the sound of the whole system. Plus, For another $275 you can add the Ground Master City to the Puritan for dead black noise floor. And it’s all plug and play. I hope this helps. 

Good footers for your speakers will decouple the speakers from the room. You will get crisp bass and way smoother mids and highs.

This comment stunned me. Maybe it's something huge that I overlooked but I thought that the bass waves being produced by the woofers and being amplified by the room were not something that could be neutralized by decoupling. If I'm wrong about this, I'd like to know, but it seems like something to do only *after* major problems involving the room had been addressed.

The proposal by hshifi — a better preamp, DAC, plus power conditioner, power cords, and a ground master — sound like throwing quite a lot of money at a much more fundamental problem. I'd bet an amount equal to their full cost that they would not help the issues you describe.

Your options are limited by the intrinsic acoustics of your room.  Regardless of the kind of room you have (dedicated or not) there will be peaks and valleys in the bass response.  Before making any purchases you might want to try a free/easy setup tweak before evaluating the more expensive option that may/may not work in your situation.  Using an RTA or SPL (can purchase apps for iPhone as well) you want to focus on the region 25-250Hz to find a position(s) where you get the most even bass response. That is where you want your listening position to be.  It is NOT about where you get the most bass.  Check out the link below:

https://www.psaudio.com/copper/article/location-location-location/

Good luck!
Gorm

Bass at the listening place is controlled through dsp. Look at Dirac as mentioned or a simple Paradigm (Anthem) ARC processor (0,5K) between your transport and DAC. When you've become more knowledgable you can move up the dsp cchain. Opens up to the best sound.

I agree with @gormdane.  I was also faced with bass issues, even after room treatments (that I needed anyway).  For background, I have a 2 channel setup with a sub and a 7.1 home theater setup in the same room so my listening spot for 2 ch. is relatively fixed (distance to TV).
After measuring the acoustics using RWE and a calibrated mic, i used Roon's DSP to tweak the bass frequencies.  (Taming a bump at 43hz had the best result.  That bump was caused by room dimensions...something I confirmed by using an online calculator.)  That improved the sound for digital however still let me with the same issues for my analog (turntable) listening.
My dealer suggested JL Audio's CR-1, an active x-over.  Before doing anything else, I verified that the bump at 43hz was present with and without the subwoofer active.  That allowed me to eliminate the subwoofer as a contributor to the bump.  The room calculations helped me confirm that it wasn't my speakers, etc.

Long story short, I was able to borrow a sample from my dealer and test it at home.  Using RWE I was able to adjust the cross-over settings and slope to tame the bass at 43 hz...still a slight bump, however much lower than w/out the CR-1.  The bass was tigher and the overall sound was much better.
I now listen to both digital (with no DSP) and analog with the CR-1 installed in my system. 

If your integrated allows you to send a signal out to a pre-process and has a power amp in, you might want to try the CR-1 if you can get a loaner.

Beautiful Speakers, I can see why you want to keep them,

IMO, it ain’t the equipment, it’s the speakers. I’m no fan of ports, but you have already stuffed them with insufficient improvement. And you certainly have tried them far enough away from walls to know the problem is from the speaker, not the room reflections.

I suspect it’s the magnet/surround/cone that is not working together harmoniously.

How old are they?

Did they sound better when new, for a few years?

Did you perhaps buy them used? If so, any info regarding age from the seller? Serial # clue?

IOW, perhaps the surrounds are not as much in control as they should/could be? Or the cones themselves have lost stiffness?

Have you asked the maker for advice?

Or, perhaps something in the crossover needs correcting/improving, however once the crossover has divided frequencies, it’s up to the drivers to sound good themselves. I’m no crossover expert, just thinking what part of the speaker is not working properly.

from a review:

" The crossover sports just 4 components, with 1st order high-pass (tweeter) and 2nd order low-pass (woofer) filters. Parts quality - Solen metallized polypropylene capacitors, a generic-looking wirewound resistor and an air-core inductor - is solid but hardly fancy, a deliberate decision by Alan who isn’t much of a believer in expensive boutique parts. Based on the results he’s achieved here, it’s hard to argue."

https://taww.co/post/183853254737/silverline-sr17-supreme-loudspeaker-review

" It has sufficient body and power down to 60Hz or so to give music real foundation, with meaningful output down to 40Hz. I think Silverline’s quoted 32Hz bottom limit is a bit optimistic (or perhaps you just need the right room), and I preferred the speaker with my REL T-9 subwoofer providing a little extra oomph. But for a great many listeners in moderately-sized spaces, this will be all the speaker you ever need. Listening to “The Elephant” from Saint-Saëns Carnival of the Animals [Tidal, Qobuz, Spotify], a track I’ve heard on some very full-range speakers (e.g. Focal Grande Utopia EM Evo), the double bass is big and present, lacking a bit of rumble that was easily provided by flipping on the REL sub. Piano left hand similarly has nice weight, never sounding diminished in scale as typically happens on small monitors. Debussy’s Ariettes oubliées song cycle from the album Paysages by soprano Susanna Phillips and pianist Myra Huang [Tidal, Spotify] is a lovely test of colors, with ethereal vocals floating above dark undertones from the piano’s lower register. The Silverline possesses suficient extension and body to bring out these contrasts with depth and balance."

 @hshifi:

Not sure why you say "besides the obvious of a better pre-amp and DAC". Care to share your rationale for these assertions?  Noone lese in this thread has suggested a different DAC would offer more controlled bass. 

I've tried power conditioning and it had zero effect. I live in a rural area  where each home has its own transformer. 

@hilde45:

"The proposal by hshifi — a better preamp, DAC, plus power conditioner, power cords, and a ground master — sound like throwing quite a lot of money at a much more fundamental problem. I'd bet an amount equal to their full cost that they would not help the issues you describe"

I agree! 

@gormdane:

Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, I don't have much flexability in shifting my listening chair laterally. I have tried moving chair forwards and back and have not noticed any difference. I guess that suggests my listening chair is in a bad location, period.