Where to go from here?

Streamer: Innuos Zen and Zenith very popular/safe option.

Going back to  ghdprentice's comment. His opinion was that the streamer was possibly the most important. In that case I need to audition a lumin x1 or p1. Reviews claim that the leedh volume is as good as a preamp. Its dac looks to be very good. I see used x1 in the  7-8000 range. The new p1 would get me ht bypass. I could then save up to get the lumin amp later. Their amp has high impedance input to work well with leedh direct to amp. The amp sure is pricey tho. 

Digital only. I mostly stream qobuz. I use a transport for a few cds some of the time. I can add krell to the list. How is  the bolder 866? If one pops up used that could be another made in america integrated to add to mcintosh and krell.

@jjss49

Good catch, I incorrectly assumed that the speaker were either bookshelf or floorstanders.

@davekuyt11
Speaker placement, a trial and error exercise, is extremely important in high end audio and necessary to get the great 3D soundstage. Room treatments usually happen after placement of speakers to tame unwanted reflections and bass energy. In high end audio, everything in the audio chain matters. The lack of ability for optimal speaker placement is a glaring weak chain link.

Are you assembling an analog and/or a digital system?

That KRELL K-300i is an awesome integrated. The internal DAC is good, and if you desire can upgrade later to an external DAC. You can get close to Mola Mola Tamabqui sound for much, much less. Spending a lot of DAC helps the audio industry and the economy keep moving. However, your ears you likely will be OK with something in the $1500-$3000 range (my ears are). 

A super neutral $719 Topping D90LE mates well with the warm K-300i. In my opinion, the Toppng D90SE (or LE), Benchmark DAC3B, Musetec 005 are better than the internal DAC. The internal DAC is not bad, just that the others that are good matches for the K-300i.

I still always recommend the internal DAC in the K-300i because it is good enough and it has HDMI which is great on that unit. The ROON READY on the K-300i is the very best I have ever used. It has volume adjustment from the ROON Client app. I do not know of any other unit that can do that.

Krell K300i intergrated amp with built in dac and streaming capabilities if you go with the digital package, plus made in the USA. 

I have a friend with an older Denon AVR hooked up to an even older pair of speakers the brand of which I cannot remember.

I am always surprised at how good that Denon sounds playing CDs via a carousel CD player.  I have always liked Denon products.

All very helpful. Im learning a lot in short time. Thank you jjss49 for getting my feet grounded. Tambuqui is a ton of money for just one piece of the puzzle. I probably owe mlsstl a beer, since his advice will keep me from frying my audio system. If the amps and preamps are just as important as the dac then I will listen to ggoofyfoot and visit some local hifi shops. I am also a short drive from mcintosh factory. That seems to be a love hate company on the forums. Oddiofyl may be right. A great integrated with ht bypass may be the best way to start. Many quality integrateds have decent dacs to get started and then down the road i can add a better streamer or dac via balanced analog in. Pmc isnt too well known in states. Very popular in canada. Other owners say they need lots of power due to the transmission line. Others told me that a good front end is a must because they are so revealing. They will never have the depth of my friends maggies that are positioned 6 ft from the wall. Depth of soundstage is a compromise Im ok with. The speakers have so much of the other traits that allow me to connect with the music.

Thanks for the post, it has me thinking. Personally, all of my equipment isn't equal in price but coming out of the speakers, it's all very musical. It's really how I put everything together. I find that I ask myself, how do I approach that sound that I heard at this concert hall or that concert hall? What ensembles do I like? What is my favorite color? Because putting components together is a very personal choice. I still believe in the brick and mortar stores because I can have a conversation with the sales people and I can sample their products too. I'd say more than anything, avoid being impetuous and use common sense.

>> "Can i run 2 speaker wires to each speaker? One from the av receiver and one from the 2 channel system."

I'd strongly recommend against that. The amp you are using would be delivering power not only to the speakers, but would also be trying to force it backwards into the output transistors of the other amp.  That's a recipe for bad sound and likely increasing the odds of equipment damage.  You might consider using a switch to totally disconnect the unused amp, but that's just another item in the circuit.

Amplification, amplification,  amplification......  It makes no sense to buy reference digital before great amplification, to me anyway.  You already have the room and speakers sorted out.   Digital is pretty good and just getting better every day.  Buy a great integrated, many are better than mid tier separates

Can i run 2 speaker wires to each speaker? One from the av receiver and one from the 2 channel system. Only one would be used at any given time. If if that is not a good idea maybee something with theater bypass should be on my radar. I have a lumin dealer in town. The new luminp1 could fit nice. The leedh volume is supposed to be very good.

The speakers are designed to be on the wall. I know most 2 channel only speakers are put into the room but that would not be the right thing to do here. I do think trying gear a bit more reasonable than the mola mola price range is great advice. 

@ghdprentice

I would rather have a tiny separate room for my audio system then be able to spend 5 times more and combine them. I have heard incredible systems in rooms the size of a closet and horrible combined HT / audio systems costing many times more.

Terrific observation and advice. I also agree with the necessity to achieve a musical-emotional connection. Without question some audio components are more capable of this than others. Music is meant to stir our human emotions. Dry, analytical and sterile won’t satisfy in the long term.
Charles

Is this for music only? If it's for streaming music I agree with the previous comment by jjss49.  If you want to keep the amplifier maybe get a Matrix miini I pro 3.as a streamer DAC with volume control. 

op

https://pmc-speakers.com/products/professional/ci-series/ci140

if that is your speaker set in your room, mounted on wall, you should not spend anywhere near as much on ancillary gear (mola mola, hegel h590, big mcintosh and so on)

my suggestion is get a hegel h190 to stream, or get a nad m33 and use dirac to get the room and speakers as good as possible given the limitation you have designed in by choosing an on-wall speaker

spending more will not yield much sonic benefit in my opinion

Also i know i prefer neutral. Any gear that i have tried and liked did not emphasize either the bass nor the  treble. Also i agree with some reviewers that entry cost gear is detailed but its a card board cutout of the sound. I get that. Where is the noise after a sound is played on cheap digital? Each dollar more spent seems to get a little more natural reverb and decay instead of an abrupt end of information after a note is played or sung.

The av will be out of the 2 channel system entirely. I am shooting for detailed and musical. I agree ghdprentice.  I much prefer  engaging music than just hyped up sound details.  I can wrap my head around seperates. I have an av closet so i have the space. Another bonus is that changing one piece at a time lets you focus on a components effect. One piece at a time is easier to budget.

A consideration to keep your cost down, then be able to expand down the road if you desire would be the separate 2 channel Parasound ZPre3 preamp, which has HT pass through. As your Denon has the preouts necessary: ‘front’ preouts to the ZPre3 main input, then out to your amp. In pass though mode, the Denon will still use your amp for HT, just as you do now.

At that point, you could experiment with various DAC’s over time, connected to the Parasound ZPre3 for seperate 2 channel music bypassing the Denon entirely. 

This would provide a lot of options moving forward. 

I also have a combo HT and 2 channel setup in my living room, but all 2 channel is separate from the HT AVR completely.  I had a Parasound Zpre in my main system, but now doing the same through my fairly new Belles Aria Signature preamp with HT pass through. A step-up no doubt, but my Parasound ZPre3 is now in my bedroom system, and don’t really want to sell it….a great little preamp.

+1ghdprentice!

I used to have what I thought was a killer 5 channel surround system with also great 2 channel stereo.  Fortunately my processor broke and led me to exploring 2 channel only.  So much better AND it images so well it is (for me) perfect for the video we watch.

Also totally agree the pre amp adds a lot to a two channel set up.  I am not a Macintosh fan and find them warm and dull sounding compared to my Audionet stuff and much other stuff as well.  The Tambaqui I do have and it is amazing, but do not use its volume control as it strips bits and you lose resolution.  I have tried several nice DACs without a Preamp and always found it  better with a Preamp.

For me, if you want an integrated, get one without a DAC so you can find your way independently.  Integrated + Streamer +DAC  or Streamer  + DAC + Preamp + amp(s).

OP,

I think you will find the vast majority of audiophiles still require/use a preamplifier, even if they do not have an analog end. The straight from source to amp requires equipment that is exceptional and compatible. My guess is 90%+ have not been able to pull it off and have gone back to preamps. Unless, you are incredibly experienced and willing to swap all of your electronics I would not try it. You are likely to end up with dry analytical sounding sound.

The really important decision here is the kind of sound you are looking for. Extremely detailed, or detailed and musical. Let me put my 2 cents in here. You probably want musical… tremendous details sound with slam like a great thing… but it frequently lacks the emotional connection most folks actually crave.

As far as keeping the Denon. Ok. But mixing HT and audio generally kills the audio side. Compromise is on the side of audio, They have two different objectives. If there is any possibility of separating the functions… I would recommend it. I would rather have a tiny separate room for my audio system then be able to spend 5 times more and combine them. I have heard incredible systems in rooms the size of a closet and horrible combined HT / audio systems costing many times more.

That is all so helpful. Really. I just love this hobby and use my music room a lot. Therefore I would like to shoot for a substantial outcome over an incremental one. I am not against  integrated. I heard the mohican cd player from hegel and also a mcintosh integrated. Both systems were impressive but different. Hegel was detailed and euphoric. Vocals on mcintosh were perfect. Not sure what i would like best long term. I was hoping to get a quality dac with volume and network and go xlr straight to the amp. Less equipment. Just a reference dac, amp and speaker. It sounds lile everyone is suggesting a quality integrated or seperates that includes a dac and get a reference dac at a later time.  Are the volume and streaming on reference dacs like a weiss 501 or mola mola not the same as a seperate streamer and a good integrated or preamp volume?

@davekuyt11

Are you targeting an integrated (preamp+amp and sometimes a DAC) or are you targeting separates?

Integrated offers the best bang/buck saving on caseworks and cables, but separates perform better and allow for future incremental upgrades.

If an integrated with a DAC, I suggest a Hegel H390 w a DAC as a safe bet. Plenty of positive reviews including the DAC . The H590 is only marginally better, maybe not worth the increased price.

video. I'm currently grooving to a Topping M50 into a E50 (both on LPS), balanced into a PA 5. All for ~ $750. If you have insufficient files to play substitute a Ras Pi streamer instead. I stick with the M50 because ComCrap is often lights out around here (twice yesterday.) Over 5 streamers.

Night and daylight compared to the AVR I still use for video and surround.

I'm usually inspired enough by it to forget turning on the 300 wpc into 6ft ESLs that sit next to it.

Unless you really want to stick $14,000 on a shelf, then go for it

@davekuyt11 

McIntosh MA 12000, use the internal DAC fed by a Lumin U2 Mini. This setup will keep you happy for many years. Save up and then go nuts on a reference DAC. 

How good is my monolith amplifier? Audioholics raved about it but stereophile shot it down saying it was dark sounding. I didnt design or manufacture it so my feelings will not be hurt if you feel its not that great. I know audioholics use denom av receivers to listen to music but im skeptical that mid priced av's ideal for 2 channel. I know first hand my speakers sounded far better plugged into the new $10-12k storm prepro at a demo. It was clear how much unrealized performance potential my have. speakers have

I'd suggest you look into what equipment you can use in your own home on a trial or loaner basis.  That will probably give you the clearest idea of which approach gives you the biggest improvement. 

Thank you for the great replies. I need to keep the amp and denon for ht purpose. I plan on a digital only system so that is why i was looking at weiss and tambaqui. They both stream and have volume control. Im sure a seperate preamp is better than a dac volume but by how much when im looking at these higher cost dacs. I lose a lot of the value that a preamp offers if Im not concerned with analog. Is that right? I hear great systems at audio shows but its hard to tell if its the  DAC, amp or preamp that Is credited with what I am liking the most.

As the Denon is a mid-fi AV receiver, I would look at DAC that also has a great preamp section. Otherwise you would have to worry about the extra cables you need in between and for power as well.

I may sound biased as I am an authorized dealer for T+A, but their DAC 200 is worth considering. But before I was, I compared this unit to a large range of DACs included a fully modded DirectStream, Lampizator Baltic 3 with $1K of tubes, a Mola Mola Tambaqui, Topping D90 MQA, Weiss 501, the Aurender A15’s built in DAC, and the $38,500 T+A SDV 3100 HV. The DAC 200 shares many similarities tonally with the reference SDV in terms of musicality, warmth, and detail, and it pairs a very good preamp with it (albeit only one set on unbalanced analog inputs). HDMI is an optional add-on if you need it. It’s a great unit for the price considering that won’t break the bank like the Tambaqui, and it may leave you with some money to invest in an amp, especially if you can sell the Denon and Monolith and recoup some cash there.

This is a hard question. From what you say, you are trying to make a huge jump…. Great idea. But if you make it too long (like years) in between the purchase of one really great component and the rest. You have a couple other mediocre components bringing the overall performance down. … years go by with a very suboptimal system.

I am not ever in favor of changes in less than 2x investment. If you want to even up the performance on all components, you have to choose from:

Streamer, DAC, Preamp, and amp.

Typically if really well chosen they should all represent roughly equal investments. The Denon is an AV box… so ideally all of its functions should be replaced.

Assuming you are OK with your amp. Then focus on streamer, DAC, and preamp. Something like a Blusound streamer (or next step up… much better), a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC, and a used high quality preamp (audiophile quality… like Audio Research, Conrad Johnson, Cary or other). The preamp really sets the tone of the system. I think you could get all these for around the upgrade cost of one piece.

This would get you a huge upgrade… and a system you could live with for years while saving up for the next level.

There are a lot of ways to do this… but I don’t like getting caught with only one spectacular piece. Although, if I did… it would be the streamer (yes, the streamer… If I was going to pick one piece I would get an Aurender N10 streamer… but then throw in a Schiit Yggdrasil DAC (because this is an outstanding streamer… I know this is counter intuitive.

Well, hopefully my point is clear… it is a system and one or more suboptimal components makes for a very sub optimal system.