Hi,been in audio preatty much all my live,play a few instruments myself, and it is chocking to me how many people in this hobbie, because they have a few Hi end gear think that they can discern sonic diferences,or that their system sounds amazing, when 80% of time when I' listen to those fellows system, the sound is horrible, I'm talking about systems in the upper $50000, and this people come out, talking about soundstage, inner detail, and layers of sound cascading thru a huge soundscape, another thing is that, I'thought all this audiophile people where a group of well to do business people, that had money to speare, when the truth is that most of audiophile people are broked and dont' have their priorities toghether, been at many many, audiophile people's house, and it is sad, people with, high end systems, and no furniture,just bought a pair of speakers, $11000 retail and an Aiwa,component has more BASS THAN this speakers, affter spending more than $2500, on cables,think someone is taking advantage of the audiophile community
Hello Juan , Interesting topic and one many can relate to. I for one have long gone given up on the ultimate or perfect hi-fi system , IMO it does not exist , all are perfect for a time and all subjective to taste.
Put 15 individuals to listen to a live symphony and i guarantee they all hear it differently, no different from listening to hi-fi and while i do agree with you regarding most big $$$ hi -fi sounds like crap, you cannot fault someone's opinion, it's there opinion and it's best for "them "...
Juancgenao:
MY system is simple,
Joulet electra150MkIIse. Quick silver M100.mono blocks Kora hermes, Dac sonic frontier FST-I, transport. Oracle Delphy IV, TT, KCI, silk worm I/C Merlin, Vsm, MMe speakers MIT 750, music Hose, spkr, cables ELrod PC Black sandviolet ZII PC Audience e' PC Former speakers. Von swheikert VR4,
I'm sure there will be those who would find your sound unsuitable, who knows. The VR4 sounds like Hi-fi and the merlins lack energy IMO. It's your hi-fi, not mine enjoy it ...
Now for the business of Hi-fi,
This i can agree with you totally , regarding the Phobie dust cables and speaker leads , amplifiers and speakers costing tens of thousands and sound like low -fi much less live music .
IMO, Hi-Fi dealers and re-sellers is who have killed off hi-fi and turned it into what it is today. My most recent experience with such after being requested by a friend to accompany him to listen to some new wonder product and viola , poor sound , poor setup and the usual you are privileged to be here attitude had me wondering why would any one put themselves thru such drivel. Worst when we told them the product was not to our liking and requested to hear their wonder beast setup , that famous sorry , you need to have an appointment .. LOL..
I had envision most being out of business a decade a go , a pity it has taken this long, thank god for the internet, hi-fi shows and direct sales. The good ones will survive, the ones that are truly into the hi-fi and work with their customers, the other 90% that's bad need to go as they are not selling hi-fi, they are selling snobbery to the highest bidder and by doing so are misleading those not in the know into believing they have good hi-fi...... Scoundrels .
Juan you are right that there are a few people out there who are broke from spending way too much on the wrong things, however, you cannot generalize. For example, my system cost is irrelevant to me. I choose not to buy what I feel are ridiculous inflated prices for many items that do nothing significant for me - but this is just a reflection of my engineering background rather than any desire to save money. It is like moral principles for me. If I can see that I am being hoodwinked then my wallet simply stays in my pocket.
I would never put so much money into cables and IC'sand PC's, as you have done. In fact, from my perspective you could improve the sound more by investing in better components (although what you have is already excellent and more than enough for most people)
Juan, to answer your topic question (What percentage...?), I believe there's a large percentage of people that really know about sound, i.e. what sounds good and what doesn't. Most people can tell the difference between excellent and poor sound. For example, a first-time listener to a high-end system usually reacts with delight, pleasure, surprise, and appreciation.
However, because this hobby (like most hobbies) is driven by perception and experience - including the economics side of the hobby - you can conclude there's going to be a wide range of perception and experience as to what aspects of the sound are more important, especially for people like musicians. Perception and experience are as varied and unique as our fingerprints.
Nevertheless, while it may be almost impossible to create a definite standard acceptable to everyone, we can still agree on many commonalities in determining what generally sounds good as well as differences in sound quality.
With regards to the other issue you raised about personal financial capacity, all I can say is it's just a matter of choice - once again, based on perception and experience.
I guess I would agree as it always shocks me at shows, such as CES that rooms I left because of the bad sound get "best of show" awards. And I go into rooms where some of transfixed by the sound and I have to leave. But all that I have to satisfy is me, so what do I care. I have a circle of friends whose ears I trust and cannot say I trust any reviewer, with the exception of Michael Fremmer.
"Having this commonality is helpful, but we should be careful of projecting our preferences onto others, and to further assuming our preferences are correct while the preferences of others are flawed."
And how is that any different than you telling someone not to project their preferences onto others? It would seem it is your preference that they do not project their preference.
Paulfolbrecht, I haven't really heard very many people say that Merlin speakers "lacked dynamics." Which model are you speaking of? Have you heard the latest iterations? Not criticizing you, just curious as to the source of your perceptions.
Tvad, Perhaps having a circle of friends whose ears you trust may mean you know their predilections. As an example, have been reading Michael Fremmer and Art Dudley for quite a while, may not always agree with them, but their preferences come across clearly. The same may be for some of one's friends. They may listen to or for one aspect more than another one but that does not necessarily mean because they have trusted ears that they listen for the same things. Perhaps a group who listen for different aspects can actually over time bring out the whole system better than any one individual. To be fair to you you did say it was an assumption
Juancgenao, are you saying you are not getting good bass from your Merlins? That does not seem right, especially with your preamp which has quite "rich, organic" bass. I'm also suprised by Paulfolbrecht's comments regarding the Merlin's dynamic, as they seem to me to be very dynamic. Juancgenao, I would think your Joule/Quicksilver/Merlin system would be pretty darn good, so it is hard to understand how you could be so unhappy with it - something doesn't seem right. That being said, no stereo system I have ever heard sounds anything like live music, they are too different to really sound the same - but I accept that, I'm just looking to enjoy music as much as I can at home.
Interesting thread;all I can say is the audio store I did business with in St.Paul Mn never jammed gear down my throat;they demoed gear based on listening to the music being played and pointed out events that were occuring in the piece being played;things I never even considered when I started out in this hobby. I owe Paul Szabady many thanks for making me really listen to the source material and understanding it as well;not just playing the music and saying listen to that bass but being able to hear the pluck of a standup bass or the striking of the hammer on the cord of the piano. Turning 50 though I miss some of that material as the hearing is not what it used to be. One other advantage was meeting Ralph from Atmasphere when his amps were first coming into the industry and learning about his design and goals for stereo reproduction.
Juan writes: "Do you think, the Director [sic] of an Orchestra, is listening for inner Details?"
Are you serious? Darn right the conductor is listening for details. Preparing an orchestra is about things like making sure the bassoons are just a tad softer and the timpani is playing a G and not a note a quarter tone above a G.
I will start here... Not sure if the poster is in fact just upset and getting a rise out of the "People" or in fact the people are upset because they feel like they fall into the category he lists!!!
Problem is they are both probably correct at whatever is going on here in this thread.
Personally I will say this, I have in fact been in the 100 dollar couch with crappy apartment rental's, and way too much invested in audio camp more than once! And he would be correct I thought I knew something and did not as it did ultimately sounded like crap compared to the money I spent, but I can freely admit this a few years later, but not at the time.
You almost have to really get your hands dirty and realize what it takes to keep audio in "Reality Check". Meaning many have to be hands on in building and tweaking their own gear to find the optimal performance from it. Not everything, but you all know this is true to a degree.
However I will say this, my experience is the opposite when visiting some audiophiles and their system, I always find something cool about another system, or its just new to me because I don't own it, so its kinda exciting, and most of the time I can hear things I like about it, not to say I would trade my system for it, but makes me take the experience to try and mimick some things in my own system sometimes. Its just fun. Self worth can only go so far need to open your mind on both sides I believe in this case.
Experience personally is all we have, buying and seting up audio gear, or which peanut butter you like best from the grocery store.
05-01-10: Avguygeorge Well we haven't had a thread like this in a while; which is a good thing.==,Oh, and don't we just love it that we can post our opinions;no matter how many folk we step on??? Surely,as enough have pointed out,we all pay our money and have different tastes,ears,budjets,rooms and such. I did own Merlin MM's and sold them for what I paid;pronto.Just not my cup of tea.---Or, I like that mid coloration and more percieved bass,in room.--Only because I owned them do I trash the Merlins.--Course, violin's don't get that low. As a guy whom plays an instrument; I have no answer for that. I do play the kazoo,however. The system I heard at a freind's house was my first recognition of what my system lacked (back in the late '70's's)As best as I remember this is what he had: Lynn tt. Rosewood cart. Mac. ss stuff and I think the brand is Advent 1+1 for speakers.--This stuff just blew me away. For years this was my goal. Here's what I have now; so any, so inclined, can pp in MY cornflakes: Meridian 808-i2 Rowland 312 Sophia 2's Tara Zero Gold ics Omega speaker wires. Audience T-6 for the conditioning,'cause I live in a 95 unit complex with its horible power.--Spell-check is down so this post shows me at my normal intel. level. So,anybody can come over. I have ear pluggs and asprin.
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Hello Avguygeorge,
Without the comas i had to read it 4 times , it was hard finding a Sophia's 2 tara Zero Gold ics Omega speakers.. -)
I will flat out state I don't want it to sound exactly the same as "live" in my room. Can you imagine a drum kit, horns, and guitars all playing in my average size room. It would sound like crap and be way too loud for comfort.
We only have recordings to listen to, not the real live band. We also have the ability to regulate the sound level of a recording within in our listening space. We don't know the SPL of the original recording, but if we did, and our room and chosen equipment could achieve that SPL, recreating that level would make the replay closer to the original event.
Musicians can play their chosen instrument loud or quiet, but it is a different technique to effect that change. It's not like the thing we achieve with a volume knob.
Do you really want to listen to every performance at "live" levels? I certainly don't. So any reduction in playback level is an instant but essentially necessary distortion. Now we get to the illusion part of the program. How good is your imagination? How many sonic clues does it take for you to accept and find pleasure in the illusion? Do you like row "A" or row "S" in the hall? There are so many choices and so many perspectives. There is no one right choice for everyone or we wouldn't be here.
To the OP, you purchased speakers on reputation/recommendation not your own needs and bias. You want a speaker with big bass and that is not Merlin. Find what you like and buy it. There are thousands of speakers and amps to choose from. BTW I always like Merlins at the shows. I don't own them.
Hi, Pubu, Merlins are fine, took me a while set them up, got them about 48" from front wall and close to 8 feet apart, this speakers are tricky to set, you move them an inch or two, and you notice the change, looking for some Cardas G/R, I/C, and speaker cables,(used, speakers midrange is awesome, Bass is lacking, but I' will fix that, when get time, I'm an HVAC, contractor, and been running like Crazy last four days, leave in the East coast, and got pretty hot lately Hopefully, will find some Cardas soon, and then will tell you in details, my impression of the Merlins, My wife held a birthday party last Saturday, when got home,found a broken Pinata on top of one of the speakers, almost got a heart attack:
Tvad, none of us can have complete exposure to outstanding equipment. Since it is quite evident that few of us share tastes in audio, an extended trusted group whose tastes we share becomes all the more invaluable in these days of few dealers and even fewer with a broad range of manufacturers.
I share tastes in wine, in places to travel to, and of course in politics with divergent groups of friends with only some overlap. All of this saves me enormous amounts of time is testing. Life is great. Agreed?
Like Rhjazz says, the Merlin really isn't a BASS lovers speaker, though it is +/-2db 33hz-22khz, not world class bass depth, but not too shabby either and too me it sounds pretty darn realistic handling acoustic bass on jazz recordings. But true, it is a 7" woofer, BAM or no BAM, but it is a very tuneful and fast bass that is pretty realistic for my taste. I did have the same preamp as you with the Quciksilver V4s (don't know how different they are compared with your M100s)but as you know QS makes some pretty nice amplifiers. I would think you have the makings of a really satisfying system there, and getting the speaker just right in the room will help enormously, but it is after all not a 3-way with 10 or 12" woofers, but it does things those big sluggish drives can't to well, especially in handling the midrange. Stick with a while, there are many Merlin lovers, though I suspect most are not headbangers.
I find that if the level of sound is not correct than the power of the recording will not be correct. I do not listen at that sweet level all the time (WAF) and my system sounds different. The sound stage smaller, the depth is not correct and instruments have less liquidity. At high levels it is as close to the real thing as my system can make it and more exciting.
I think it is impossible to reproduce live music considering most music is recorded in a studio and what we hear an approximation of live music. A lie from the get go if you will.
--Hi,Weseixas; While I am near world class in the run-on sentence I feel you can never have to many commas---within a sentence. Within my system I feel my "parts" get me just so far and cabling gets me the rest of the way. With regards to what the conductor listens for: Jeez, if I were in Fritz's or Lenny's orchestras,it would require 14 Miltown's per session.---Hell, I'll bet ;these guys were much worse than their reputations; nuf.said. Kinda back to topic: I figure it's all about how much enjoyment one gets from their system,(comma)along with how much they love music, no matter the financial outlay. I don't need someones approval;I'm not that insecure.
Gotta read all the responses before i post my thoughts. But Kudos to bring the very sensitive topic that I (and am sure many here) was thinking about but afraid to expose the truth that 'audio emperor has indeed no cloths (and furniture)' ;-)
I do not think this is a very useful thread. Were we all to take auditory tests, I am sure we would see many nowhere near flat responses across the audible range of frequencies. It is not just a matter of the loss of high frequencies with age. Also, we know that many cannot sing on key or to recognize accurate timbre of instruments. We know that musical experience helps with all of this. Nevertheless many performers are off key and digital music helps to make their recording on key.
All of this means is that we cannot trust others to make recommendations for us. If a reviewer has a peak in frequencies where we have a valley, we probably won't like what he likes. Even a speaker with a perfectly flat frequency response and coherent phase, may not prove outstanding to everyone or to us personally.
I don't understand comments such as "taking advantage of the audio community." Who appoints these people as the scam police? There is no basis whatsoever for dismissing the benefits of audio components and tweaks based on "science." All designers also have ears and must design within the limits of what we know about nature's laws. No one yet has made a point source speaker with a frequency response, dynamics, and perfect phase of real music. Nor has anyone designed a "straight wire with gain."
Finally, I had a very interesting personal experience with a famous pianist who listened respectfully to my system and said he found it very enjoyable. Later when I visited his home, I asked to see and hear his system. Begrudgingly, he took me back to a small room where he listened. His system was a portable record player with outboard speakers. Seeing my reaction, he said, I know every piece by its music, I listen only to the interpretations of the individual performer while seeing and hearing the music in my head. He said that when he needs to hear music, he plays it.
I know every piece by its music, I listen only to the interpretations of the individual performer while seeing and hearing the music in my head. He said that when he needs to hear music, he plays it.
Interesting, Tbg. I've heard this before: that many fine musicians are NOT audiophiles precisely because they can hear the music in their heads.
Virtually every musician I know (a small horde) has a crappy system. I'm sure that it's partly economic (musicians are not, for the most part, investment bankers), but I think it's also almost a badge of honor. I KNOW that they hear the difference, they just like to make the point that they don't care about that difference.
They swear that its the "idea" of the music - not the actual listening experience - that matters. I understand why that stakes out a sort of moral high ground, but I still find it kind of bewildering. I guess that I'll just take the low road and dig it.
I think this is straight forward question and answer IYO is what OP is asking for. Note that the ref is live acoustic music. If you have other priorities- sound stage, details, etc. it is okay.
Per Juancgenao, the percentage who really knows sound is 20% (80% sounds horrible to him).
I tend to agree with him (In fact I would even say it could be lower even) based on systems I have heard- at dealers and and at shows.
The gap between live performance and its reproduction might appear to be small but is actually very wide. Very few audio systems is able to bridge the gap or even come closer in reality.
Forget OP's other comments, don't take it personally and respond to the OP title question. What do YOU think the percentage is?
What characteristics makes live sound live? and how do you and how to discern it when you hear it? Well, never mind these questions, may be this deserves another thread
The sound of a live instrument is IMHO a long way away from what even the best equipment can recreate. As a test of this, i can take my Taylor (acoustic steel string guitar) and play just one note to most any listener, experienced or not, and that listener can immediately tell the difference between 'live' and reproduced. BUT that doesn't mean to say that our systems are not good at portraying a simile of live music in our listening rooms. Some systems are better at this than others. Some people have a better audio memory than others and IMHO if someone likes what they hear from their system, then that should be all that matters.It's the old saying, "one man's meat is another man's poison" when listening to someone else's system. I do agree that it seems foolish to buy any equipment without listening to it first though.
To be fair, question may be broken in two parts. 1. What percentage of us really knows sound? 2. What percentage of our systems achives the(ideal) sound?
Answer to one would be high percentage- many of us knows what live sound sounds like
Answer to second would be lower- may be in teens as the overall sound achieved is in system context, which is vey hard to achieve and requires lot of luck and perfect planetary alignment.
For instance, IME, currently having a extremely satisfactory system and just plugging my amps (with everything remaining same)to different outlets nearby (15 or 20 amps) changes the sound significantly as to tilt the balance in negative direction tells you how hard it is to achieve perfectly balanced systems. I really hope some one figures out why certain system 'match' perfectly and certain don't.(both with well designed and reviewed components) Parahaps, too many unknowns?
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