Who??

Happy in the stereo world. Lived through the quad days of audio. Never invested in 5.1 or 7.1. Familiar with Atmos, but not interested.

@ebm , that’s funny :) Here is a link to an interview of Giles Martin (George Martins son) on remixing the Beatles in Atmos:

Here is an interview with the engineers at Abbey Road on remixing Pink Floyd in immersive audio:

Will I have to buy a new Power Cord that will bring a greater sound stage to Immersive recordings? 🤣

An announcement from Universal Music:

“This is a completely new way to create and experience music, freeing artists to be more expressive and experimental with their recordings,” said Todd Pendleton, Chief Marketing Officer and Senior Vice President, Dolby Laboratories. “Dolby Atmos Music envelops the listener, bringing you inside the music and creating a visceral ‘wow.’”

“UMG and Dolby are fundamentally expanding how we experience music,” said Michael Frey, UMG’s President of Operations, Global Studios and Technologies. “Artists will be able to share their music directly as intended and created in the studio. Dolby Atmos Music give artists the power and creative freedom to express their story like never before.”

Dolby Atmos is integrated at UMG’s iconic studios, including: Capitol Records Studios in Hollywood, Abbey Road Studios in London, and Berry Hill Studios in Nashville. UMG labels around the world are all working on creating immersive music content in Dolby Atmos.

What better reason to keep the money flowing - introduce another "groundbreaking format" for the masses.

Yet another reason to get another "better" DOSM, Sgt Peppers....oookkaaay.

Isn’t a properly setup stereo convincing enough? A legit room/system setup with multiple subs are the only thing necessary for an "immersive" experience to my ears.

@tablejockey I agree completely. Another gimmick? 

“What is Your Opinion of Atmos Music?”
@kota1 
Nope, not needed for music in my experience. Been there, done that! Let the Dolby Atmos be limited to Movies. A well appointed 2-channel system is perfectly capable of providing immersive and natural experience. 

Interesting responses, and I agree, they are both capable of providing an engaging and immersive experience. Fortunately it isn’t necessary to eliminate either one of them. But they ARE different, stereo is channel based and atmos is object based. The limitation of atmos is having to use so many speakers but for people who already have home theaters it is easy to try. If you subscribe to apple music or tidal atmos music comes with your subscription so it isn’t necessary to buy a bunch of blue rays or SACD. I don’t think this format will die out the way "surround" music has withered. The mixing engineers are creating new content constantly.

@kota1 

I've not heard Dolby Atmos myself but a friend of mine who has thinks it will be the next big thing.

The idea of a more immersive sonic experience certainly sounds interesting to me. Spatial audio seems to be the way forward and omnidirectional speakers do seem to be a clear step up from poorly designed boxed ones.

Can I ask what are the main differences to 5.1 and what do you mean by saying that atmos is 'object based'?

@cd318, 5.1 surround sound has an advantage of adding the center channel. Stereo was originally 3 channel and as you know two channel depends on a phantom center. Having a center channel in place makes the system a bit less dependent on a phantom center but that is a preference, not a necessity. Atmos adds another dimension of sound coming from above you. Think of what speakers on the left and right do, Speakers above and below give the engineer more possibilities to mix with. Objects are placed in the mixing software and are rendered as closely as possible to the mix with YOUR speaker setup. Here is a clip about object based sound:

5.1 is sufficient for surround and the only really considered submissions for surround Grammy's. I probably enjoy more surround music than movies here.

Not near as much as 10" two ways X 2.

@fuzztone you are correct, the majority of movies and shows streaming today are mixed in 5.1.

The majority of immersive/surround MUSIC streaming however is on apple music and tidal and mixed in atmos.

Except for that I ignore Apple music and I tried Tidal, don't like it and do not believe in the MQA scam. I've heard a true Atmos setup and it's too "speaker intensive" for my lifestyle. Not interested.

Have at it.

3D movies = Atmos music.

Atmos does provide a 3D soundstage. Instead of just expending left to right and front and back it expands with a height dimension. An object based format is a more precise way for the engineer to mix the soundstage in 3 dimensions.

I like stereo too, especially in the mornings listening at low volumes.

I listen to stereo, 5.1 surround and Dolby Atmos. Done right, 5.1 and Atmos are outstanding. A whole new dimension in sound, much preferred. The only problem is a lack of quality material. Hopefully that will improve with time.

@sdw , I agree with needing more material but have found an excellent work around. The upmixers in a processor are decent but the X-Box has an upmixer that will provide an actual Atmos, DTS, or DTS-X stream. It is fantastic and the X-Box Series S is small and around $300. I stream every movie in atmos or DTS even though most of them are using dolby 5.1 soundtracks. I have not tried gaming on it yet but it has every streaming service I use and it also has Plex, Tidal (through Plex), Amazon Music, Deezer and Spotify. You can also stream via DLNA. Basically I can make every track Atmos music by playing it through the X-Box.

Thanks, that's good to know. I recently bought a new Yamaha AVR (Aventage RX-A6A) and I know it does some upmixing, including to Auro 3D. I'll check it out first, but will keep your suggestion in mind.

@kota1

Great link, thanks.

I’m already looking forward to a trip to the cinema once something catches my interest.

Object based systems such as Dolby Atmos do seem to be a genuine advance over 2 channel recordings when it comes to a convincing representation of spatial sound.

For many audiophiles, a life-like 3d image has always been major goal.

Perhaps the obvious wire issue could be dealt with by some form of Bluetooth connectivity?

Anyway, it’s high time since we had some advance over the work of Alan Blumlein, one of early audio’s great heroes.

"In 1931, Blumlein invented what he called "binaural sound", now known as stereophonic sound. In early 1931, he and his wife were at the cinema.

The sound reproduction systems of the early talkies only had a single set of speakers – the actor might be on one side of the screen, but the voice could come from the other. Blumlein declared to his wife that he had found a way to make the sound follow the actor."

@sdw , congrats on your new receiver. When installing your height channels there is a universal layout that you can use for both atmos and auro. Have you installed height speakers yet?

I have but two ears. I like to listen as though I was at a live performance. Stereo, with the source filling in the soundstage in front of me.

Who goes to a show a is surrounded by musicians? 

@marshinski15 , absolutely true about stereo. Some music is being mixed in Atmos and the engineer is trying to convey the artists intent. If you read the article I linked to above here is how Giles Martin describes it:

We start off with the stereo. I feel immersive audio should be an expansion of the stereo field, in a way. I like the idea of a vinyl record melting and you’re falling into it. That’s the analogy I like to use. And if you have lots and lots of things all around you all the time, it can get slightly irritating and confusing, depending on what the music is.

and then

With Beatles mixes, because we have, I suppose, the money to do it, and the luxury of time, what I and [engineer] Sam Okell tend to do, opposed to using digital effects, is we’ll place speakers back in Studio Two [the Abbey Road space where the Beatles originally recorded]. And we’ll re-record John’s voice in Studio Two, so what you’re hearing are the reflections of the room he’s singing in. It brings the vocal closer to you.

Now this is for a pre-existing stereo mix that is converted to atmos. For music that is being mastered in atmos you have the artist right there and the engineer asks them about their intent. One atmos mix is backward compatible with the speaker setup of the listener, it could be stereo, 5.1, in your car, headphones, etc.

See:

@marshinski15 Back in the day, Pink Floyd placed speakers all over an arena or stadium, and mixed the music accordingly. Anyone who ever attended one of those shows would know how superior the sound was compared to a straight "soundstage in front of me" experience.

If you read this article I posted above they are interviewing the studio owners and engineers about mixing in atmos. I was VERY lucky to have corresponded with the owner of The Dub Stage and Galaxy Studios about not only my room setup but my room treatment. My intention was to be able to recreate what they experience on the mixing stage in a way that translated to my own listening room. It was not difficult, just needed to take it step by step. The results are very satisfying and I still listen to both atmos and stereo, depending on what I’m listening to. I can select the format I want through my Marantz processor.

This is a pic of the setup at Abbey Road when they were remixing Pink Floyd in immersive audio, Notice the height speakers need to be on tall stands because they are heavy powered monitors with amps inside them. I use the same setup for my system as I use active speakers as well. I don’t like the stick the speaker in the ceiling approach as it is inconvenient and you lack flexibility to position and tilt them:

Here is a pic of a home version using speakers from SVS. No cutting holes in your ceiling, easy to mount, and will work with all of the immersive formats (atmos, dts-x, and auro-3d):

@kota1 I have installed 4 height speakers already. I split the difference between Atmos and Auro for wall mounting height.

@sdw , that is how Wilhelm from Auro 3D suggests to do it. I positioned my pair of top middle speakers and split the difference so they can double as my VOG speakers for Auro.

Moved from 5.1 to 5.2....the rest boggles the mind.....

Very soon, if not now, the technology will outstrip content.

Technology that can create content will need to be developed.

Bots with creative programs. Regular people can’t keep up.

How much music warrants what we have now?

New revenue streams. Oh boy!!! Can’t wait.

While I never cared much about home theatre sound, but after seeing Bong Joon-ho’s film Parasite in a good theatre (last film before covid, that’s a while back :-) where surround really added to the house-as-character motif, I became interested. So when my hand-me-down stereo DAC died I replaced it with an 8-channel.

That was with regular surround in mind. Fortuitously, Apple’s macOS TV.app gained support for Atmos (up to 14 channels now) which means I could do 5.1.2 for example (or add another DAC and create an aggregated device via CoreAudio to get more).

I haven’t gone there yet (need amp channels and speakers, obviously). But I can listen to the binaural Atmos mix via headphones (AirPods Max) in the meantime. I’m one of those people who hears headphone soundstage more-or-less in a line transecting my ears so I’ve never been much of a head-fi enthusiast. But the Spatial Audio mix (aka Atmos) usually improves things, moving the main soundstage forward and and expanding it generally (I listen to studio-assembled music for the most part so I’m not pursuing venue sound, so no comment on that).

So far that works from TV.app (where it’s quite uncanny) and Music.app on recent macOS, iPadOS and iPhoneOS devices (and from an Apple TV hardware box too of course). As Apple Music is my usual source that’s pretty helpful. The head tracking is ok but I little off right as I turn from centre. I’ve set up the personal spatial profile by doing the LiDAR ear scan thing, which helped a bit.

Apart from encouraging up-to-date hardware (the source of Apple’s gratuitous billions) there’s no extra charge for hi-res or spatial.

@axo1989 , Atmos will "see" your speaker setup (2,5,7,11, whatever) and do its best to place each sound object in the mix. I have tried atmos with only two speakers and a subwoofer and compared to stereo and in my rig I notice a difference in the soundstage and the bass. You can compare yourself and see how you like. 

This is a short video on the best Atmos speaker setup, using height channels in the front and back of the room right above your front and rear speakers:

@kota1 Haha thanks, I don't generally watch YT with funny faces and amped-up headlines on the splash screen (which is to say I barely watch YT at all :-) but I understand Atmos basics.

Apple Music doesn't play spatial (Atmos) to a stereo setup by default, but it can be set to do so. I've tried this on some recent releases done with Atmos and hi-res but I can't say any difference in stereo image or tonality jumps out at me. Changing the player preferences is a couple of steps so no instant switching. And I haven't really kicked back and relaxed into it to appreciate the subtleties on the level of old vs new DAC for example.

Steve Wilson on how he is mixing classic albums into Dolby Atmos. He states when Apple started offering Atmos the demand just exploded from 5.1 to Atmos overnight:

Giles Martin on mixing Revolver in Atmos:

Brian Eno on Atmos music, his question with new technology, what can you do now you can never do before. He is excited to use Atmos to place sound in a proper space. He places the vocals in the MLP, why stick him on the wall in front? great video

@amir_asr , if you are happy with your mic, your laptop and your dry wall, fine with me. It is a waste of speakers IMO, but it is your money, spend it how you wish.

In this thread you can see videos of interviews with Abbey Road Studios, Giles Martin, Brian Eno, Steve Wilson, just to name a few who enjoy/prefer immersive audio.

You know Toole grooves on Auro 3D, are you aware of the work Tomlinson Holman (THX founder) did on MCH listening when he developed Audyssey DSX. Another fan of immersive audio. So here you have rock stars, audio superstars like Toole, and Holman and the list is getting longer every day. It is inappropriate that a guy reviewing MCH receivers doesn’t even have a proper room (that I know of). You got the other thread to help you with your build. If you need help feel free to post, NP.

BTW, look at the pic above of Abbey Road Studios, then Toole’s setup and then my own. All of our systems have MLP equidistant from front and rears, book shelfs as height channels mounted high on the wall angled down at the MLP. We ALL use a VOG channel, a center height channel, and matched speakers (Abbey Road and I use active, Toole uses passive). This is a good blueprint to follow for your build (except placing subs in the ceiling like Abbey Road Studios, LOL)

@melvinjames , is this thread more genial?

@kota1 .. don't know, I haven't read it (no interest in Atmos).

7X Grammy winning recording engineer Luis Barrera Jr. prefers Dolby Atmos music over two channel because the artists and producers he works with go wild for it:

PMC chief technical officer Oliver Thomas:

"Imagine listening to an orchestra from the position where the conductor stands, Atmos allows you to do that."

"Some artists are now composing music NOT through stereo speakers, buy through a Dolby Atmos system"

@brianlucey

So far you seem like one of the few members I have heard from that has seen that the "audio" puck seems to be going toward atmos. As a mastering engineer supporting the format you recently stated:

"My personal goal today is to set the high sonics bar in this emerging format. I’ve gone from very skeptical to one hundred percent all-in. No matter the future of the format, it’s a breath of fresh air to work in Atmos."

My personal experience aligns with yours. I started out skeptical after seeing DVD-A, DSD and SACD never really find a growth market. I find it a breath of fresh air to see innovation and this new format in growth mode too. Every new receiver and HT processor (even some soundbars) have it. Nearly all new 4K UHD bluerays have an atmos track. Atmos is on streaming services. Even my X-Box series S can stream atmos to my HT regardless of how the original content is mixed. When I saw the AES conference in NYC a few years back all about immersive audio I was wondering if it would stick. Now it looks like we are past sticking and once Apple got on board with spatial audio we are snowballing. What is your opinion on atmos not just for movies but for music? How can a hard core 2 channel enthusiast try the format without needing to risk $$$ on a new setup?

@kota1 My personal and professional opinions of Atmos/Spatial ... it’s the evolution of the headphone format, unintentionally created by all involved. Not much released at the moment is great work, so early days. As a speaker format it’s fun and beautiful and inspiring when done well for those who can afford it. But for music listening that’s a tiny part of the listening market. People arguing pro and con on speakers vs. stereo as if there is a winner are fools. Speaker listening is a spec on the market, good for you, but chill. Speakers not the headline with Atmos/Spatial and stereo is going nowhere. The speakers are needed in the studio for mixing, to get it going, and to inspire and to inform. They don’t have to be great speakers yet they do need to be cohesive. Cohesion for the engineer or the listener is the #1 challenge, #2 challenge is harmonic distortions. Working on headphones is where the final decisions are made. And there are 2 headphone products, which is annoying. The delta is getting better by the month. The average person has never heard great stereo and phantom center. 99.999% of humans have never heard a great stereo room. Atmos/Spatial puts Jane average on any headphone into a studio with center image and reflective space around the ears. It’s a big deal. It’s a great experience. All this assumes the work is done at the highest standards, which it is 99% not. Big delta between bad and great, and we are mostly middle to bad at the moment. People with a bias will listen to 3 tracks for 30 seconds, become experts, and crap  on the format as "another surround" which it is not ... or "not as good as stereo headphones" which is false. We are in the VERY early days of engineering Atmos/Spatial and even the best mixers are in the infancy at this time vs. 70 years of evolving how we work to make stereo. We need to keep an open mind. Confirmation bias is a disease of the mind, very prevalent on this topic. I was there in the beginning, I understand the cynics. Be skeptical, not cynical. Get more data. Learn. Imagine. Atmos/Spatial mixes are barely being mastered after being mixed not very well most of the time. And that is supposed to compete with highly evolved mixes mastered in stereo? This new format is far superior to stereo headphones WHEN done correctly. Double the dynamics and triple the canvas. That is a big deal. When the CH of a pop song hits it can GO somewhere. For mastering I use 50 transformer/Class A Op Amp EQ as the final piece of mastering processing, as those distortions are needed. Also use 48 ch of analog compression. Headphone listening using dCS Bartok with 2 great headphones, after using Evolution Acoustics monitoring 7.1.4 with mostly Bricasti M1 SE DAs, great amps (Allnic Audio A-6000 L and R and Parasound A51 on the rest) and cables like my stereo system (Acoustic Zen). Tremendous mixing is barely coming online now, and mastering is still not even a line item expense at the labels. Barely done. Analog atmos mastering? Only me at the moment. Everyone should do it. Early days folks, try not to be an expert. I am now far ahead of the curve and I am learning daily. No one knows the musical ceiling here (Atmos dad joke) but I have seen it, and it’s high. Stereo is not going anywhere, and there is no competition, so please let that argument go. Most of the musical content in stereo speakers can be heard in either the L or R speaker, as it’s panned center. Very convenient! That’s the opposite of the new format which forces you to one location. Headphones, again, are the real positive here for the general public and the audiophile both. Speakers are fun and headphones are the big headline for the future. Apple is committed, with a multi billion VR budget and not going away. I was never on board with ANY previous multichannel. We men need toys, ok, but those formats were never going to stick. This is very different. This is the evolution of speaker surround, and the next step in headphones, finally. Stereo headphones were always a terrible substitute for a great room. Even with crossfeed there is no air. The intimacy of headphones is nice, and that’s it. This format in headphones has so much more to offer.

As far as getting into the format as a speaker listener, there is no rush, most of the products are not up to par compared to great stereo.  I recommend Trinnov Processing for high end rooms, and for starter rooms you can get in with $15,000 no problem.  Great wired headphones give you more quality for less money. And bluetooth Apple Max for $450 gets anyone in the door.  Mixers with those and Logic Pro for $200 can get started mixing.  It's a huge learning curve for engineers and we all (audiophiles and engineers) need to be patient and open minded.   

@brianlucey , that is a great perspective, thanks for posting. I never really considered that the majority of the population have never really heard a great two channel setup but it is so true. You have die hard enthusiast members here who are still looking for ways to upgrade. So when you talk about a general point of reference for good SQ among average listeners its basically what they hear in the car or ear buds. If Atmos can close that gap so average listeners can experience what a good setup can offe with daily driver type of gear that is easy to use that is a big win/win/win. Win for the artist/director, win for the studio/manufacturer and win for the consumer. I never thought about the mass market aspect of this before. I didn't realize the atmos headphone mix could be so good, probably can save $$$ on headphone rigs (I am not a headphone user, just for casual listening but might start now).

Re: the quality of work being done it must be expensive on the producers end. The first atmos mix has to be for theatrical release (unless its for streaming or music) and that has got to eat a lot of budget, then you have the nearfield mix for the home with any $ left over, then you got the 7.1, 5.1, stereo. The studio mix needs to translate so it won't blow up any ear pods, etc. Then you have emerging standards and lack of a universal system to calibrate reference, more $$$, I get it about early days. 

A lot of good info here, appreciate your insight and if you feel you are experimenting that goes for everyone. You have more format confusion with DTS-X/IMAX, Sony 360, Auro-3D, etc. The atmos setup can be confusing between the new nomenclature (5.1.4, 7.2.2, 9.2.7, etc) and then all of the variables on types of speakers and locations.

I found that once I got my hands on the Dolby setup specs it made it much easier to get the angles and distances down. Hopefully as this new format emerges that will be come a standard. To your point about a learning curve I am finding that the source content is much more important for SQ than the processor you use downstream. For example discs are generally better SQ than streaming services (except kaleidoscope).When I was reading how you said the most important "component" in your studio was your Trinnov calibration system I had to smile. When I went from a standard version of Audyssey to the Pro version with a calibrated mic and software using the PC not the one in the processor it was a huge upgrade. Not at the Trinnov level I'm sure but much better than the consumer version. Thanks again for your reply.

Jean-Michel Jarre:

"Immersive technology is the key to creating music of the future:

What Colin Leonard from the SOA studio at SING Mastering has found about Atmos music is it is the best system of reproducing music and I agree. Remember, you don’t have to trade stereo for Atmos. Listen near the end of this video as he describes going back to stereo on the same speakers after listening to the Atmos mix. He says:

"Mastering in Atmos you can create dynamics that are impossible in a stereo environment...that you just can’t get in a stereo system...Atmos is the best representation of music that you are going to hear anywhere"