What is Your Opinion of Atmos Music?

I have the last Kenny Wayne Shepard Atmos Blueray, here is the process of mixing the next one:

Atmos Music in a Benz:

@donavabdear

As for the strengths of the other formats I would say DST-X/ Imax Enhanced is more dynamic in movies but there is no music I am aware of in that format. Auro-3D is not being produced right now but they never really got traction. Sony is gaining traction in Sony 360 music on Tidal and as a Codec available on Sound United products. I think it is targetd more for headphones. Sennheiser Ambeo is mixed more for commercial venues. THX Spatial Audio is available as an upmixer in certain computers and phones. The elephant in the room is Dolby and when Atmos became available on Apple Music the demand for atmos mixes went through the roof. I would learn Atmos before learning any of the others. I’ll bet if you start going through Apple Music spatial audio mixes you will quickly learn the mixes you like. Find out who the engineers are that mixed those tracks and that would be a good starting point. Your community has been very approachable in my experience and I’ll bet an e-mail with a compliment about the mixes you liked followed up by a "If you were me how would you get started" will get you in the fast lane so I can start listening to YOUR mixes.

@kota1 You've made a good point but Atmos seems to be what the stadios are falling over themselves putting in. I say the first display of Atmos many years ago touting object based mixing, I didn't take it seriously but if you think about it that's the answer because it can translate to only a few speakers and that's how your brain works anyway. Pan pots between 2 sources really don't make sense describing something in nature. Seems you are the expert at sound codecs, I don't know of any others that are in the race for me. What are some of the strengths of the other formats over Atmos?

@donavabdear , Atmos has competition from Sony 360, THX has an immersive codec, Sennheiser has Ambeo, and Xperia has DTS-X. I don’t think AES can be brand specific without causing a controversy. All you need is to go visit some studios and get a feel for it. The Dubstage is local, I think @brianlucey has extended an invitation in the other thread. There are online classes sponsored by Dolby and I am sure local stuff in LA. If I were in LA I would make a beeline to the Dubstage but you likely already have friends in the "mix" so to speak. You learn by doing and it looks like a blast from the videos I watch. What do you think?

@kota1 I have been trying to set up my atmos system for a movie in a few months and have been getting frustrated because it is still a moving target. No standard really but at the same time maybe that will release a lot of creativity. So far I've really been unimpressed with atmos music mixes with a few exceptions, seems like when they sound like good stereo they are better. I know the future is atmos it doesn't matter if we have 2 ears our brains interpret sound constantly, emotion is really the final goal walking down a path with headphones that make you shiver because you felt something come at you from behind is the emotional content that will be the future. Stereo people often talk about soundstage and depth with reverence, well atmos is a format that lives there, my hope is that the format isn't perverted so much that it becomes cheesy, I do feel like it's getting a bad start like @brianlucey said so far the quality has been pretty bad in music, movies have taken to atmos very well, but like when stereo came in it was used poorly, I hope creative adults in the room (maybe AES or SEMPTE) will set some good guidelines about mixing atmos.

A tour of the Atmos studio at Sweetwater. FWIW I got my Black Lion power conditioner and Auralex Sustain diffusors at Sweetwater and got great deals and support. In the video they are using 9 bed channels and IMO the wide channels are very important and use a 9.2.7 setup personally:

@donavabdear ​​​​@brianlucey 

You might like:

Upcoming Events for Engineers and Professionals who want to learn more about Atmos Music:

Producing in Atmos workshop:

https://register.gotowebinar.com/register/1146420520915394135

Dolby Atmos Music at NAMM 2022

@axo1989 👍

That solves your problem, no need to get an Apple thing, stick with Sony. The Z1R are extra-nice headphones.

@axo1989 , it isn't necessarily good or bad, but different. Dolby makes a big deal about artist intent, they should use the same renderer if possible IMO.

@kota1 The article is out of date in some respects, Apple added spatial audio monitoring to Logic Pro at version 10.7.3 (current version is 10.7.5). Both Apple and Dolby user guidance describe this (on the production side, which the writer was addressing).

To be terminologically precise, you would be listening to the same mix, but a different rendering. I can’t offer an opinion on whether the spatial audio renderer is better/worse, I haven’t used Atmos via the other services. From your position, you are still faced with different playback scenarios to (potentially) try out one way or another.

Apple "Spatial Audio" mix might be different than the Dolby Atmos mix created in the studio if you are using headphones. Apple has its own "spatial audio" renderer for headphones that takes the original atmos mix and puts it through its own renderer UNLESS you are using ATV4K via HDMI to a receiver. If you want the original mix on headphones use Tidal. Check out this diagram and the follow up article:

@axo1989 , thanks for the tips. I have been less than thrilled with the Firestick, but it integrates well with Tidal and Atmos music. I agree it is time to take the leap into the apple ecosystem and the new ATV4K seems easy enough. It is nice to have so many choices of headphones and have never gotten into them much before. I was looking at getting a separate preamp for 2 CH in my main HT system and this checked that box. I was looking at DAC’s like the Chord Qutest and this checked that box too, the Qutest was about $300 less but lacked all of the other features this unit has. Finally I have never gone down the headphone rabbit hole because I prefer speakers. The fact that this unit had the other features I wanted the headphone amp was what pushed me over the edge to pull the trigger. I use a Sony universal player for CD’s. SACD’s, streaming via DLNA, and bluerays. I like the sound signature and we’ll see how it works as a transport for this unit. Just wanted to get some advice before jumping in with headphones that will do both 2 CH and atmos.

@kota1 I forgot to mention: the cheapest Apple source (if you did want to try AirPods Pro or Max) is of course an AppleTV box. You probably get a free trial period of Apple Music with that. And you get to try all the spatial things.

@kota1

I intend to listen in my main listening system (in my profile). The DAC/pre I bought is the Sony Signature TA-ZH1ES. I can use it as a DAC with my HT processor, as a 2 CH preamp connected directly with my active speakers (they have both XLR and RCA inputs with a toggle switch), and as a headphone amp. My transport/streamer is my Sony Universal/Blue-Ray player, my Onkyo DAP (android OS), or my Bluesound Node. I am thinking about Sony’s matching headphones, the Signature MDR-Z1R and have a budget of around $2K. I can get an Apple product if necessary. Thanks for any advice.

I have three headphones: Senny HD650, Sony Z1R and Apple AirPods Max (in order of acquisition). I reckon if you already have the Sony signature player you’d be mad not to get the matching headphones. They are beautifully constructed and detailed, light and most comfortable to wear despite the large-ish size, and of course sound very good. Bass is extended and well rendered. Detail retrieval is very nice. Voicing of the treble is exciting but can overcook things at times on modern productions with processed vocals. I usually use them at my home office desk powered by a Chord Mojo, so they aren’t getting any help. I have the recurring fantasy of running them from Woo Audio Fireflies, which I should try. But I’m not a headphone freak so it’s a ways down my listening/shopping list. My usual source is Apple Music: the spatial audio tracks play as expected but the head-tracking doesn’t, of course.

What about AirPods Max? I use them a lot: noise cancelling is effective (which also means you can enjoy listening at lower levels) and the spatial effect is better. Head-tracking is fun (when running on devices that support it, Apple Silicon Mac, iPhone or iPad in my case) and nails the illusion of audio coming from the image source (I’ve done the LiDAR thing on my ears). Despite the smaller drivers (40 mm on Apple vs 70 mm on Sony) the bass isn’t lacking in quality or quantity—I think Sony actually made the Apple drivers judging by published images. The somewhat smoother/darker/mellower high-end is preferable on certain tracks. Distortion is low and detail is excellent. They are at least as well made. And of course, wireless is very handy. But that means 24/48 tops as Apple hasn’t gone any further.

I’d get both of course (easy to say when I already did). But you’d want an Apple source device also—otherwise you are wasting usability and spatial potential—that’s a bigger decision. I gave up on Tidal/MQA for example, so my source lineup and yours don’t correlate at all. If you want to dip your toe in at less expense, most reports suggest the new series AirPods Pro are quite good.

@brianlucey , I have been streaming Atmos music either using Tidal through a firestick (it is not very good) OR through using the Atmos renderer in the X-Box which converts everything to Atmos once you select it as your audio output.

Either one sounds better than Dolby Surround upmixer on my processor.

I intend to listen in my main listening system (in my profile). The DAC/pre I bought is the Sony Signature TA-ZH1ES. I can use it as a DAC with my HT processor, as a 2 CH preamp connected directly with my active speakers (they have both XLR and RCA inputs with a toggle switch), and as a headphone amp. My transport/streamer is my Sony Universal/Blue-Ray player, my Onkyo DAP (android OS), or my Bluesound Node. I am thinking about Sony’s matching headphones, the Signature MDR-Z1R and have a budget of around $2K. I can get an Apple product if necessary. Thanks for any advice.

ima cool with checking it out... compared to the money spent on unsavory adventures that ruin one's life, this is money in da bank

@kota1 yeah so that's incorrect. For listening to Atmos, you have two general categories of options, Apple Music and Amazon/tidal.  The latter uses the Dolby Binaural, which has the 3d data included in the streaming file which means it can play on any headphones. Apple has their own proprietary spatial DSP happening when you use the high-end Apple products, which is the Apple Max or the AirPod Pro. If you don't listen with those products than Apple uses something similar to the Dolby binaural.  So where do you intend to listen? What is the DA converter and headphone amp that you intend to use? How much do you have to spend on headphones?

@brianlucey can you recommend a pair of headphones for atmos music? I noticed the headphones have to be enabled for atmos. Just pulled the trigger on a new headphone amp, Thanks.

I saw that Fosgate piece yesterday and of course immediately wanted it. Then I read the Stereophile review by Kal and realized it wasn't for me. If it needs service you gonna call?

'Did you ever hear of Jim Fosgate? Black Ice audio has partnered with him on their designs. They have a tube based headphone amp and are bringing out a SOA headphone amp (The Aries) that Jim designed to replicate his own SOA audio system. 

kota1-

No doubt when the Foz introduces something unique, it's worth a listen.

I remember the "Punch" car audio days of the 80's and use his tubed signature phono amp introduced 10 years ago.

I guess my tinnitus/frequency deficient ridden ears just aren't interested in anything except a real cure for both of these afflictions.

While I'm not a home theater enthusiast, this is interesting- outdated perhaps based on whatever the latest iteration is, but perhaps the tube magic makes it worthwhile.

FOSGATE AUDIONICS FAP V1 NEW OLD STOCK #3... For Sale | Audiogon

Jim Fosgate breaks down the design strategy for the Aries headphone amp, it should be out soon. This interview is early stages:

Black Ice demoed the new Aries headphone amp at Cedia 2022 and it should be out soon, this video is from the prototype:

@tablejockey , I have a similar situation, my room is well setup for atmos but it took effort. I totally discounted atmos in headphones, putting it in the category of upfiring speakers and atmos soundbars. Now that @brianlucey shared its a game its a game changer I am smiling. A really good stereo/headphone rig is $$$. I’ll bet I can get a good atmos headphone rig with a nice set of cans and one of those THX headphone amps for a lot less. What gets me REALLY excited if the idea of a SOA Atmos headphone rig. Did you ever hear of Jim Fosgate? Black Ice audio has partnered with him on their designs. They have a tube based headphone amp and are bringing out a SOA headphone amp (The Aries) that Jim designed to replicate his own SOA audio system. I am getting the idea of an tube based, SOA headphone/atmos system that wouldn’t be affordable or practical for my room.

brianlucey,

If one is listening thru headphones, I would imagine this new technology may be something to be interested in.

Since you're in the business of "creating the illusion" I "get" the ongoing push to expand the boundaries and possibilities. Your early guitar experience w/ Robert Fripp and being an actual working musician certainly gave your qualified ears.

Sitting on the sofa in an aesthetic and sonic appropriated room with the "best" gear possible is immersive enough for me. 

.

@tablejockey i was with you until I really dug in. Atmos on any headphone gives Joe average phantom center image and a "great room" experience previously reserved for you and me in stereo. Headphone stereo is pretty bad compared to a room. Headphone atmos done well is miraculous. It’s early days. Mixing is all over the board. Mastering is nearly non existent. Analog mastering as I do here is just me. Stay curious. Apple is committed and musically it’s superior. If done well. Almost never. We don’t know the musical ceiling here. Stereo we do. Both are here to stay. 

@brianlucey , I was on your website, very nice list of accomplishments, congrats. If you have time can you post a pic of your atmos setup? If you are too busy that’s OK, thanks.

What Colin Leonard from the SOA studio at SING Mastering has found about Atmos music is it is the best system of reproducing music and I agree. Remember, you don’t have to trade stereo for Atmos. Listen near the end of this video as he describes going back to stereo on the same speakers after listening to the Atmos mix. He says:

"Mastering in Atmos you can create dynamics that are impossible in a stereo environment...that you just can’t get in a stereo system...Atmos is the best representation of music that you are going to hear anywhere"

Jean-Michel Jarre:

"Immersive technology is the key to creating music of the future:

@brianlucey , that is a great perspective, thanks for posting. I never really considered that the majority of the population have never really heard a great two channel setup but it is so true. You have die hard enthusiast members here who are still looking for ways to upgrade. So when you talk about a general point of reference for good SQ among average listeners its basically what they hear in the car or ear buds. If Atmos can close that gap so average listeners can experience what a good setup can offe with daily driver type of gear that is easy to use that is a big win/win/win. Win for the artist/director, win for the studio/manufacturer and win for the consumer. I never thought about the mass market aspect of this before. I didn't realize the atmos headphone mix could be so good, probably can save $$$ on headphone rigs (I am not a headphone user, just for casual listening but might start now).

Re: the quality of work being done it must be expensive on the producers end. The first atmos mix has to be for theatrical release (unless its for streaming or music) and that has got to eat a lot of budget, then you have the nearfield mix for the home with any $ left over, then you got the 7.1, 5.1, stereo. The studio mix needs to translate so it won't blow up any ear pods, etc. Then you have emerging standards and lack of a universal system to calibrate reference, more $$$, I get it about early days. 

A lot of good info here, appreciate your insight and if you feel you are experimenting that goes for everyone. You have more format confusion with DTS-X/IMAX, Sony 360, Auro-3D, etc. The atmos setup can be confusing between the new nomenclature (5.1.4, 7.2.2, 9.2.7, etc) and then all of the variables on types of speakers and locations.

I found that once I got my hands on the Dolby setup specs it made it much easier to get the angles and distances down. Hopefully as this new format emerges that will be come a standard. To your point about a learning curve I am finding that the source content is much more important for SQ than the processor you use downstream. For example discs are generally better SQ than streaming services (except kaleidoscope).When I was reading how you said the most important "component" in your studio was your Trinnov calibration system I had to smile. When I went from a standard version of Audyssey to the Pro version with a calibrated mic and software using the PC not the one in the processor it was a huge upgrade. Not at the Trinnov level I'm sure but much better than the consumer version. Thanks again for your reply.

As far as getting into the format as a speaker listener, there is no rush, most of the products are not up to par compared to great stereo.  I recommend Trinnov Processing for high end rooms, and for starter rooms you can get in with $15,000 no problem.  Great wired headphones give you more quality for less money. And bluetooth Apple Max for $450 gets anyone in the door.  Mixers with those and Logic Pro for $200 can get started mixing.  It's a huge learning curve for engineers and we all (audiophiles and engineers) need to be patient and open minded.   

@kota1 My personal and professional opinions of Atmos/Spatial ... it’s the evolution of the headphone format, unintentionally created by all involved. Not much released at the moment is great work, so early days. As a speaker format it’s fun and beautiful and inspiring when done well for those who can afford it. But for music listening that’s a tiny part of the listening market. People arguing pro and con on speakers vs. stereo as if there is a winner are fools. Speaker listening is a spec on the market, good for you, but chill. Speakers not the headline with Atmos/Spatial and stereo is going nowhere. The speakers are needed in the studio for mixing, to get it going, and to inspire and to inform. They don’t have to be great speakers yet they do need to be cohesive. Cohesion for the engineer or the listener is the #1 challenge, #2 challenge is harmonic distortions. Working on headphones is where the final decisions are made. And there are 2 headphone products, which is annoying. The delta is getting better by the month. The average person has never heard great stereo and phantom center. 99.999% of humans have never heard a great stereo room. Atmos/Spatial puts Jane average on any headphone into a studio with center image and reflective space around the ears. It’s a big deal. It’s a great experience. All this assumes the work is done at the highest standards, which it is 99% not. Big delta between bad and great, and we are mostly middle to bad at the moment. People with a bias will listen to 3 tracks for 30 seconds, become experts, and crap  on the format as "another surround" which it is not ... or "not as good as stereo headphones" which is false. We are in the VERY early days of engineering Atmos/Spatial and even the best mixers are in the infancy at this time vs. 70 years of evolving how we work to make stereo. We need to keep an open mind. Confirmation bias is a disease of the mind, very prevalent on this topic. I was there in the beginning, I understand the cynics. Be skeptical, not cynical. Get more data. Learn. Imagine. Atmos/Spatial mixes are barely being mastered after being mixed not very well most of the time. And that is supposed to compete with highly evolved mixes mastered in stereo? This new format is far superior to stereo headphones WHEN done correctly. Double the dynamics and triple the canvas. That is a big deal. When the CH of a pop song hits it can GO somewhere. For mastering I use 50 transformer/Class A Op Amp EQ as the final piece of mastering processing, as those distortions are needed. Also use 48 ch of analog compression. Headphone listening using dCS Bartok with 2 great headphones, after using Evolution Acoustics monitoring 7.1.4 with mostly Bricasti M1 SE DAs, great amps (Allnic Audio A-6000 L and R and Parasound A51 on the rest) and cables like my stereo system (Acoustic Zen). Tremendous mixing is barely coming online now, and mastering is still not even a line item expense at the labels. Barely done. Analog atmos mastering? Only me at the moment. Everyone should do it. Early days folks, try not to be an expert. I am now far ahead of the curve and I am learning daily. No one knows the musical ceiling here (Atmos dad joke) but I have seen it, and it’s high. Stereo is not going anywhere, and there is no competition, so please let that argument go. Most of the musical content in stereo speakers can be heard in either the L or R speaker, as it’s panned center. Very convenient! That’s the opposite of the new format which forces you to one location. Headphones, again, are the real positive here for the general public and the audiophile both. Speakers are fun and headphones are the big headline for the future. Apple is committed, with a multi billion VR budget and not going away. I was never on board with ANY previous multichannel. We men need toys, ok, but those formats were never going to stick. This is very different. This is the evolution of speaker surround, and the next step in headphones, finally. Stereo headphones were always a terrible substitute for a great room. Even with crossfeed there is no air. The intimacy of headphones is nice, and that’s it. This format in headphones has so much more to offer.

@brianlucey

So far you seem like one of the few members I have heard from that has seen that the "audio" puck seems to be going toward atmos. As a mastering engineer supporting the format you recently stated:

"My personal goal today is to set the high sonics bar in this emerging format. I’ve gone from very skeptical to one hundred percent all-in. No matter the future of the format, it’s a breath of fresh air to work in Atmos."

My personal experience aligns with yours. I started out skeptical after seeing DVD-A, DSD and SACD never really find a growth market. I find it a breath of fresh air to see innovation and this new format in growth mode too. Every new receiver and HT processor (even some soundbars) have it. Nearly all new 4K UHD bluerays have an atmos track. Atmos is on streaming services. Even my X-Box series S can stream atmos to my HT regardless of how the original content is mixed. When I saw the AES conference in NYC a few years back all about immersive audio I was wondering if it would stick. Now it looks like we are past sticking and once Apple got on board with spatial audio we are snowballing. What is your opinion on atmos not just for movies but for music? How can a hard core 2 channel enthusiast try the format without needing to risk $$$ on a new setup?

PMC chief technical officer Oliver Thomas:

"Imagine listening to an orchestra from the position where the conductor stands, Atmos allows you to do that."

"Some artists are now composing music NOT through stereo speakers, buy through a Dolby Atmos system"

7X Grammy winning recording engineer Luis Barrera Jr. prefers Dolby Atmos music over two channel because the artists and producers he works with go wild for it:

@kota1 .. don't know, I haven't read it (no interest in Atmos).

@melvinjames , is this thread more genial?

@amir_asr , if you are happy with your mic, your laptop and your dry wall, fine with me. It is a waste of speakers IMO, but it is your money, spend it how you wish.

In this thread you can see videos of interviews with Abbey Road Studios, Giles Martin, Brian Eno, Steve Wilson, just to name a few who enjoy/prefer immersive audio.

You know Toole grooves on Auro 3D, are you aware of the work Tomlinson Holman (THX founder) did on MCH listening when he developed Audyssey DSX. Another fan of immersive audio. So here you have rock stars, audio superstars like Toole, and Holman and the list is getting longer every day. It is inappropriate that a guy reviewing MCH receivers doesn’t even have a proper room (that I know of). You got the other thread to help you with your build. If you need help feel free to post, NP.

BTW, look at the pic above of Abbey Road Studios, then Toole’s setup and then my own. All of our systems have MLP equidistant from front and rears, book shelfs as height channels mounted high on the wall angled down at the MLP. We ALL use a VOG channel, a center height channel, and matched speakers (Abbey Road and I use active, Toole uses passive). This is a good blueprint to follow for your build (except placing subs in the ceiling like Abbey Road Studios, LOL)

Brian Eno on Atmos music, his question with new technology, what can you do now you can never do before. He is excited to use Atmos to place sound in a proper space. He places the vocals in the MLP, why stick him on the wall in front? great video

Giles Martin on mixing Revolver in Atmos:

Steve Wilson on how he is mixing classic albums into Dolby Atmos. He states when Apple started offering Atmos the demand just exploded from 5.1 to Atmos overnight:

@kota1 Haha thanks, I don't generally watch YT with funny faces and amped-up headlines on the splash screen (which is to say I barely watch YT at all :-) but I understand Atmos basics.

Apple Music doesn't play spatial (Atmos) to a stereo setup by default, but it can be set to do so. I've tried this on some recent releases done with Atmos and hi-res but I can't say any difference in stereo image or tonality jumps out at me. Changing the player preferences is a couple of steps so no instant switching. And I haven't really kicked back and relaxed into it to appreciate the subtleties on the level of old vs new DAC for example.

This is a short video on the best Atmos speaker setup, using height channels in the front and back of the room right above your front and rear speakers:

@axo1989 , Atmos will "see" your speaker setup (2,5,7,11, whatever) and do its best to place each sound object in the mix. I have tried atmos with only two speakers and a subwoofer and compared to stereo and in my rig I notice a difference in the soundstage and the bass. You can compare yourself and see how you like. 

While I never cared much about home theatre sound, but after seeing Bong Joon-ho’s film Parasite in a good theatre (last film before covid, that’s a while back :-) where surround really added to the house-as-character motif, I became interested. So when my hand-me-down stereo DAC died I replaced it with an 8-channel.

That was with regular surround in mind. Fortuitously, Apple’s macOS TV.app gained support for Atmos (up to 14 channels now) which means I could do 5.1.2 for example (or add another DAC and create an aggregated device via CoreAudio to get more).

I haven’t gone there yet (need amp channels and speakers, obviously). But I can listen to the binaural Atmos mix via headphones (AirPods Max) in the meantime. I’m one of those people who hears headphone soundstage more-or-less in a line transecting my ears so I’ve never been much of a head-fi enthusiast. But the Spatial Audio mix (aka Atmos) usually improves things, moving the main soundstage forward and and expanding it generally (I listen to studio-assembled music for the most part so I’m not pursuing venue sound, so no comment on that).

So far that works from TV.app (where it’s quite uncanny) and Music.app on recent macOS, iPadOS and iPhoneOS devices (and from an Apple TV hardware box too of course). As Apple Music is my usual source that’s pretty helpful. The head tracking is ok but I little off right as I turn from centre. I’ve set up the personal spatial profile by doing the LiDAR ear scan thing, which helped a bit.

Apart from encouraging up-to-date hardware (the source of Apple’s gratuitous billions) there’s no extra charge for hi-res or spatial.

Very soon, if not now, the technology will outstrip content.

Technology that can create content will need to be developed.

Bots with creative programs. Regular people can’t keep up.

How much music warrants what we have now?

New revenue streams. Oh boy!!! Can’t wait.

Moved from 5.1 to 5.2....the rest boggles the mind.....

@sdw , that is how Wilhelm from Auro 3D suggests to do it. I positioned my pair of top middle speakers and split the difference so they can double as my VOG speakers for Auro.

@kota1 I have installed 4 height speakers already. I split the difference between Atmos and Auro for wall mounting height.