"Skeptic in North America, sceptic in the rest of the world and off planet."
I stand, actually sit, corrected to a significant extent.
What is the Silliest Accessory You Have Ever Seen.
I was flipping through the accessory pages at the Cable Company and came up with this https://www.thecableco.com/hallograph.html You have to be kidding me. Of all the dumb, idiotic, profoundly stupid things I have ever seen. The marketing is even better! Have you seen anything worse! It is up to us to uncover these things for what they are, SCAMS.
Mike
Mike
487 responses Add your response
Am I allowed to put 1V across 1 ohm and say confidently I will get 1A of current or do I need to do an experiment?Using an equation of Maxwell born after Faraday experiments, to denigrate the necessity of some experiments about acoustic specific settings and particular room or for justifying something about some unusual product is a SOPHISM if it is not an electrical properties essential to the working of the product... No single equation will never replace experiments in the interface of many techonologies and scientific domain like acoustic and audio... By the way i never buy tweaks nor sell them... i create my own room and system at peanuts costs...I am less gullible than those who pay thousand for not always better than mine... creativity is more useful than free sarcasm... And affirming seriously that a product which create some positive effect is a fraud because the created effect is not optimal is not an honest approach to a product to say the least... And it is a LIE if the person has never experiment the product... EXAMPLE: I correct my homemade tubular pipe "lensroom" with gluing to the now closed aperture some straw with definite diameter and lenght , making them bottles, to improve the answer of these primitive Helmholtz resonators to the specific acoustical content of my room.... I did not bash the product under the pretext that he is not optimal for my room (even if the effect was positive immediately a refinement was possible).....i at least try it before decreting an opinion... Perhaps you are "gifted" by the unborn quality of seeing, the infuse science like someone we know ? Not me.... Are you not in the list bit curious why so few of these tweakish things are never demonstrated by suppliers that they unequivocally make a sonic difference? It would be so easy to show and could do nothing but increase sales. It is easy to answer.... If you sell a costly electronic piece of gear in audio, do you suggest to the customer who buy with big money that your speakers or amplifiers or even dac cannot work optimally if he does not take care very specifically of the vibrations and resonance, if he dont control the noise level of the electrical grid of his house and if he dont treat and controls the acoustical settings of the room? In a word before sellling did you say to the customer that your product out of the box will not be optimal in his working? Do you know a seller who bother himself and the customer to do that BEFORE each purchase or even AFTER? Why do you think all threads are about UPGRADING the piece of gear? guess why? 😁 Is it difficult to you to figure it? a clue: Some people with a great amount of money dont bother themselves with these details, but without money this is the ONLY way to create a hi-fi experience at low cost....NONE other way....Anyway even costly audio systems need to be mechanically electrically and acoustically embed the best way possible... We are not all like people who can afford a tool like a costly equalizer for example, we must do it by ears, and anyway the equalizer CANNOT solve all acoustic problem this is basic acoustic....But some ignore it especially if the toy or the tool cost thousand of dollars... |
Skeptic in North America, sceptic in the rest of the world and off planet. Am I allowed to put 1V across 1 ohm and say confidently I will get 1A of current or do I need to do an experiment? When one who possesses relevant experience and "dismisses" these silly accessories, that does not mean they are claiming they will do absolutely nothing. I stated the item that started this will do "something". But doing something and meeting the outlandish claims are completely different. Of course I am quite certain the clever little clock does nothing except cleverly extract money from people. Are you not in the list bit curious why so few of these tweakish things are never demonstrated by suppliers that they unequivocally make a sonic difference? It would be so easy to show and could do nothing but increase sales. Can you imagine having a product that makes a demonstrable and obvious difference in the sound and never making a demonstration that proves the difference is obvious? Surely you must be at least a little curious why that does not occur? |
I lived to see the day this is written on Audiogon forum.I say that because i am perfectly able to criticize myself, and without going back to our discussion in the past, i know that the main part of our divergence were based on the fact that you are" cautious" if i try to understand your perspective... Being cautious is an aspect of intelligence... Even if i may diverge about something or even if our interpretations of something are different, the main characteristic of your objections were born in a cautious attitude... I can differ on a subject with you but i cannot reject this fact.... I dont want to go back in the past.... I prefer friendly and logical debate without attacking a group or a person or a product we dont know.... Example: all people trying the hallograph are not gullible stupid persons.... Assimilating all unusual products like the poster over me to all the others unusual one is not a cautious and intelligent attitude.... It is only a sarcastic party.... It is not my party.....I am skeptic( thanks for the correction )not stupid.... I never has taken any pleasure here to mock someone for the pleasure to do so.... But i can answer sarcasm with sarcasm...Anyway sacasm is not logic nor reason... ... |
tweak11,910 posts01-09-2021 9:00amThe problem here is the title with the word SEEN, instead of HEARD https://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm Thank you for clearly illustrating placebo effect. |
bdp247,150 posts01-08-2021 6:43pmThe Peter Belt (PWB Electronics) "products" are laughably ridiculous. He does give audio dynamica a run for their money! |
mijostyn, Be careful. cleeds and mahgister may be right after all. For whatever reason, Sherman tank is part of the Flying Heritage. Website, at least. FHCAM - M4A1 Sherman Medium Tank (flyingheritage.org) |
This is a phenomenal thread. Let it stay for posterity and education of future generations. "I know very well that glupson is not stupid..." I lived to see the day this is written on Audiogon forum. Speaking of education, I have a minor observation for this and one more thread. Skeptic is spelled with K, not with C. It is not an important detail, but may as well be the only useful knowledge gained here. Apart from mahgister’s comment quoted above. |
To you and others, what may appear perfectly possible, is totally absurd to the rest of us. That you don’t know it is absurd does not make it any less absurd, it just means you don’t possess the knowledge to know it is absurdsaid audiodesign...before he erase his post.... FIRST-what we know or did not know MUST not interpose itself in an experiment...This is a necessity and an obligation in TRUE scepticism... "scientism" is the opposite attitude... SECOND- what someone know did not dispense him to experiment, because the state of the science is always incomplete, and the quantity of science in one head is more limited than the actual scientific kowledge on earth...(except for Mijostyn who is "gifted") THIRD what appear absurd to one does not implicate a total and proven absurdity...Logic does not replace experience and experiment, and for example acoustic is a PRACTICAL science like medecine based on facts and theory but in dire need of experiments .... FOURTH the argument saying that: US we know it is absurd, we see it, but NOT YOU, makes absolutely no sense in an experiment... FIFTH audio like acoustic is an experimental science...audio is a mix of science, new tech, and experiments at the intersection of many sciences and tech...... SIXTH i cannot fathom for myself the fact that an engineer like you is unable to know that his posting argument is only a vicious circle... EXAMPLE: i just corrected for the better in my room, the tube pipes sold under the name "Lensroom". I did it 2 hours ago...It is AN EXPERIMENT....No judgement about "lensroom" can replace the modification or say something about it.. Any small room has a geometry, a topology and a content with various materials with various acoustical properties,modifying the Tubes necessitate my ears...Without this complex acoustical content, without the many diffusive surface packed in my room, a calculus would do, for example in the case of helmholtz resonators in a particular big theater...Sometimes the ears do it more economically.... No a priori informed judgement can replace experiment except in the case of those calling themself "gifted"... It seems audiodesign himself erased his post....My post was an answer to his ....You can read it in mine... |
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As an attempt to bring this back on topic, I would say the Hallograph is maybe not the silliest accessory I have ever seen. That might be the little saucer things Geoff sent me as a prize for answering one of his questions correctly, but even that may not be THE silliest. I would probably try and lump some of them into sort of a "top 10" list since silly is in the ear, eye, or wallet of the beholder. One thing I can say about the Shakti folks, those electromagnetic stabilizers (aka "the Stone") have held their value better than any audiophile "accessory" I have ever owned. Considering what I purchased them for years ago, I could sell them today for more. Almost as good as buying bonds and better than a savings account....however, if I were really smart, I would have sold them a year ago and purchased Tesla or bitcoin! |
mijostyn Lets say cleeds (this is just an example) says mahgister saw a Sherman tank fly. I take a look at a picture of a Sherman tank and reply that mahgister is hallucinating again ... Cleeds replys, "How can you say that? You just saw a picture!".. cleeds can look at a picture of a Sherman tank and know for an absolute fact that that thing ain't flying ... some of us are gifted and can tell by looking at some things that they are absolutely not suited for the suggested purpose.Logical fallacies: excluded middle and reductio ad absurdum. If you want to prove to me that something sounds better you have to show me the blinded AB comparison study with at least 10 subjects ...This is a hobbyist's group, not a scientific forum. No one here has to prove anything to you or anyone else. If you seek double-blind test studies, you're in the wrong place - unless you're just here to argue. |
Mahgister, well said. audio2design,glupson, myself and a few others are "stupid."I know very well that glupson is not stupid and more cautious than you, then dont put words in my mouth ... I dont know the "few others" , i speak to YOU then why invoking others? Even audiodesign spoke more cautiously about the"room lens" without bashing it because he did not try it he did never pretend to have a "gift"... Then dont implicate audiodesign about this tweak thread.... we dont dicuss about the Digital " truth" here.... I spoke about YOU and answered to YOUR post in this thread....i dont speak about all sceptics... I am myself a sceptic by the way not a silly one tough....Dont implicate others behind you that have nothing to do with my answering to your affirmation... I speak about the silly sceptic who said this: Well folks, some of us are gifted and can tell by looking at some things that they are absolutely not suited for the suggested purpose.And like the last times, when you dont had any argument, you assimiliate me to somebody else you hate...And never apologize... Maybe you and millercarbon should go out and get a drink together. I am not in the hate business...I hate nobody here but i cannot stand at all someone insulting indiscriminately a group of people with no sound reason at all.... I only dont like to bash group of people like you did without any other reason than your "Gift"... Your way toward me just right now in this post are despicable... Answer to my arguments, and dont assimilate me to others and dont put others (glupson) to stand the pressure for you and to be divisive.... Talk about the old days when you could tweak yourself silly and everyone would just ogle at the genius of it all.is this an argument? No shame, no argument, unable to speak for yourself and cowardly invoking others at your rescue who has nothing to do with YOUR POSTS...You want to be divisive because you dont have any arguments.... I dont see the necessity to discuss more.... You already said that you dont want to read my posts, please dont read them anymore....Thanks.... |
Mahgister, well said. audio2design,glupson, myself and a few others are "stupid." I am getting good at this trolling stuff. I may be stupid but I am certainly not defensive. Maybe you and millercarbon should go out and get a drink together. Cool off. Talk about the old days when you could tweak yourself silly and everyone would just ogle at the genius of it all. |
Must i analyse for others to see point by point the stupidity of this post and self defense? You protest that you are not only a sceptic, but it is only impossible to convince you even by your own experience ... A blind test perhaps will … 😊 why then accusing others to be gullible about the product they experience and are happy with? Because they are not imbued with the same "scientist" blinders than you? Ok i understand it is "science" for you..... All the others who buy anything are gullible but not you, you are a "scientist"... This is so condescendingly stupid my arms falls Well folks, some of us are gifted and can tell by looking at some things that they are absolutely not suited for the suggested purpose.read your line.... I myself was in the obligation to try the "room lens" to verify some of his audible effect but not you.... You are born with infused science.... Mijostyn read your line and think.....Instead of making sarcasm.... There is only one thing i dont understand here....why some people are not ashame to put themselves in the corner with the most evident affirmative stupidity? Some of them are "gifted "indeed... Another thing to think about is the way those who first insulted a distictive group of people after that feel insulted if we turn their nose in the own vomit deconstructing their vicious circles.... Well folks, some of us are gifted and can tell by looking at some things that they are absolutely not suited for the suggested purpose.Incredible..... |
Right. Lets say cleeds (this is just an example) says mahgister saw a Sherman tank fly. I take a look at a picture of a Sherman tank and reply that mahgister is hallucinating again. We have to increase his thorazine dose. Cleeds replys, "How can you say that? You just saw a picture!" Now I know darn well that unless he is back on the sauce again, cleeds can look at a picture of a Sherman tank and know for an absolute fact that that thing ain't flying. He is just pulling my leg for fun. Well folks, some of us are gifted and can tell by looking at some things that they are absolutely not suited for the suggested purpose. We do not have to go through the ordeal of a blinded AB comparison. If you want to prove to me that something sounds better you have to show me the blinded AB comparison study with at least 10 subjects. Otherwise, it is just an opinion and when it comes to audio the opinions of strangers are close to worthless. There are times when you can't even trust your own opinion. |
I never wrote a post about a device i never experiment with, and after that ridiculizing all owners to be gullible people by principle like some ... Exactly why I ask that the whole thread be removed. Its only reason for being is to insult. Not anything constructive about it at all. Just plain flat out direct ridicule. Not even based on any actual experience. Just that it looks silly. Which as I pointed out right away, if you know anything at all about sound then its bound to work as a diffuser. Whether it works or not, how effective it is for the price, don’t know. Haven’t the foggiest. But I do know its definitely not silly. It is in fact grounded in acoustic science. So the OP is not only insulting, but ignorant. Childish. Its been pointed out, but he persists. So also arrogant. Deserves more than anything a time out. Can’t get one from the whole site, mods seem to encourage this sort of antisocial behavior. But he can get one from me. Bye! |
I never wrote a post to condescendingly treat a group of people to be ignorant.... Like you with your attack about turntable deluded people... I never wrote a post about a device i never experiment with, and after that ridiculizing all owners to be gullible people by principle like the OP ... This is INSULTING to many.... My answers are always based on arguments not insult first...I dont like people who attack many in one block, turntable owners or tweakers, that makes no sense.... By the way audiodesign you never answer to argument, you distort and insult for example what frogman says...It is easy to read the posts, they are there...no shame? Myself last day i created my own " room lens" ,because i make my own device,i dont have the luxury to be able to buy but my device WORK very audibly without any negative.....Then the original device must be really good.... I will refine mine this summer.....The hallograph is a diffuser and it probably work good also, i will made a pair this summer... I dont have time to bash others and clothes myself with a theorem....Try to make one and speak after.... «A theorem can be a veil where to hide from reality» -Anonymus Smith |
The stereo times list of wanted components listed Lejonklou Boazu integrated amplifier. The designer auditions different components down to screws, bolts and solder (based on how they effect the sound). Sounds insane, but from the reviews (read them yourself) he produces quite an interesting product. "jperry The real scam that goes on is people commenting on products they have not heard." +1 |
Butt we also have companies design foam and fiberglass devices because they can be easily packaged boxed and shipped so when they are crushed along the way they can spring back into their contrived shape. Their existence does not confirm that there is not a better way to control and maintain live dynamics in a sound room. Same old same old crap on any given day. If you want new and creative control over air flow high and low pressure drops look at F1 and Skunk Works. Tom |
cleeds3,547 posts01-18-2021 10:51am audio2design Real scientists conduct experiments to test new science. They don't run experiments to test fundamental macro properties that were established 50-100 years ago. That is called yr. 1/2 lab course work. That is why we have acoustics simulation programs that are highly accurate. Similar to circuit simulators. Sure we build stuff and test to verify, and small parameters variations over many devices can have unexpected consequences, but the basics don't change. |
I try to control the sound in my room with mostly vented anngular devices on the ceiling and on the floor to capture and redirect energy at or near my listening position. Some of these are permanently mounted some are portable. In either situation they are all direct coupled to the floor or the ceiling. No springs damper gliders no sliders..I want to keep all the energy and control its direction. I see these angles I installed 25 yrs ago in a much better light now that I have moved ahead with an active laminar flow device that also actively treats the air..I have been doing that all along for 25 years with the passive devices I installed back then including the Argent Room Lenses. The active device now gives me more control and improved focus over the entire listening area..The only combing of the air devices I use are at the first reflection points and 3 along the 21ft wall behind the equipment and the speakers. The panels I constructed have have long hair sheeps wool suspended and covered with fabric. Foam and fiberglass sound as if I am wearing a hoodie or a toboggan. This is how I operate. Tom |
"Real scientists conduct experiments to help evaluate empirical evidence" That may be a bit of a stretch in some areas of science. In many of them, experiments are done to evaluate hypothesis which may, or may not, be based on empirical evidence. As it is these days, in the end something does get measured in most, if not all, experiments conducted. |
audio2design
... others don't have to do "experiments" to know how something will or will not work ...Yup, that's the definition of the measurementalist. Real scientists conduct experiments to help evaluate empirical evidence. |
@glupson, My group of people shunned the Soundcraftsman units at the time. We had already started to slide into the minimalist units without tone controls. Units like the Soundcraftsman were in part responsible for that movement as they seriously screwed up soundstaging/imaging. Now the Argent Room Lens. If one end of the pipe is open then they could function as Helmholtz resonators but I fail to understand why you would want something resonating by your speakers. As long as the pipes do not ring I suppose they could operate as diffusers at higher frequencies. They look like big door bells. They certainly have more potential to do something than the Hallographs which are too spindly to do anything. IMHO the best way to deal with room acoustics is to use directional speakers so that you do not bounce sound all over the place. Then a little absorption here and there is all you should need. In the small rooms we listen in you really want to decrease the amount of stray energy rather than redirect it. It is like clearing fog out of the way. Room treatments is another area where there is a fair amount of chicanery. Good contoured foam tiles are all you really need but unfortunately, they are not the look that some people want. You have to spend a lot more for decorator stuff that works. I am very lucky in that my wife does not mind them at all. I didn't even have to buy her flowers. |
The Argent Rooms Lens have a damped control apperture thru the bottom vent for bass control and pressure relief. So basically a resonator. My suggested placement after 20 years of use is 6 feet outside the edge of either speaker Diffusion at this spot would aid in controlling first reflections.
Also usually a very good spot for diffusion. May provide limited bass control. Tom, this is not meant to put down the product, but to suggest how it is likely working in your system. I expect their benefit is more from diffusion than bass control. Room measurement would show that in a few minutes, however, not placing them at max room nodes limits what they can do in the bass. I would not put these on the silly scale. I doubt they meet all their claims, but could certainly see them being useful. |
@mijoystyn, @mahghister appears to read into posts what he wishes, either to stoke his outrage and/or stroke his bias, a kind of multicellular Helmholtz resonators....This product was just bashed by another fellow of the same species tonight who never try one....😁 This comment was directed at me. I initially said they were essentially diffusers, then updated my comments to recognize the Helmholz resonator aspect. The diffuser aspect is exactly true (as indicated by the company who makes them). I also stated that their effectiveness as Helmholz resonators would be severely compromised by their suggested placement (basically beside the speaker, and between it and the wall) as this is not a high pressure point. People who understand bass control will recognize this to be true. Some people are highly offended by people who are knowledgeable and speak confidently on topics they cannot. They can't fathom that others don't have to do "experiments" to know how something will or will not work. This obviously is not exclusive to high end audio, but it does appear to have an unusually high concentration. |
Going back to Hallographs, did anyone else think that room in the second (large) picture looks like a funeral home? 6moons audio reviews: Shakti innovations Hallograph |
mahgister, I somehow missed who has what kind of equalizer and who "he" actually is. Once upon a time, Soundcraftsmen was "the equalizer" to have. I was simply hinting at that. "Soundcraftsmen equalizers and their compact "brick" style power amplifiers gained a sizable following among audiophiles during the 1970s and 1980s." Soundcraftsmen - Wikipedia |
@mahgister, there you go insulting me again. Lack of good faith? You have to be kidding. These guys create a totally fictitious story to sell a cheap wooden construction to soak money out of uneducated (in science) audiophiles which I am trying to expose and I am the one operating in bad faith. People may not like what I have to say because it offends their sense of political correctness, to which I say "Get over it." You want to ogle over silly tweaks, start your own thread. This is about exposing them. |
I dont think that this is his equalizer... It is a cheap one without offending you.. But that can work marvellously, the price of an audio product is not linearly linked to his efficiency.....But anyway....That dont invalidate my point.... By the way i just validate in the last hours the effectiveness of another product myself "argent room lens"... a kind of multicellular Helmholtz resonators....This product was just bashed by another fellow of the same species tonight who never try one....😁 I used discarded plumber tubular pipes i have already in my cellar, 30 minute of works and i verify the effectiveness in acoustic of this product in my room...I was not surprized because i have already used some resonators with success... But these pipes with another proportion and dimension than ly past resonators work even better...I will refine all that with experiments in the next weeks... I decided to do that on the spot after reading another stupid rejection or bashing WITHOUT any logical motivation and no experience with the product like this one today... I decide to do that to close some mouth....like the one in my last post.... No society can work without good faith in our fellow neighbours....Bashing, lying, conjuring children plots is not the way.... |
"...a warrent from a branded named engineered device written on a costly device like an equalizer..."Not that costly... soundcraftsmen equalizer | eBay |
It is not BS because he may seriously believe what he says or he is trying to protect an advertiser. Whatever. The marketing and the premise are total BS.It is not so funny for me to analyse your total lack of goodfaith here... You never experimented with this product, nevermind the fact that the marketing explanation is not able to explain correctly the product... It is common that unusual audio product are not always very well explained for all their effects.... The main point is your total lack of experience with it, then you affirmation is more fraudulent than a bad or fabricated explanation about a product which anyway probably works to some degree if i read reviews for the last 10 or 15 years ....You CANNOT know...This is the point... Only those who try know... Follow this fellow and see if he keeps them in his system. If he does then he is very susceptible to psychoacoustics. If he does not then he is FOS. You just can’t win. But here it is funny... 😊 Do yo have been lectured in logic at school? minimalistic logical argumentation course? If yes, you have been a flawed student or perhaps with an atrocius professor... Come and see: A-" Follow this fellow.." B- " If he keeps them in his system. If he does then he is very susceptible to psychoacoustics "( a kind of placebo effect) C- "If he does not, then he is FOS."(for sale) Your conclusion is remarkable with this perfect balance between the bad faith of your reasoning and the vicious circle in it... It is difficult to not laugh with pity for you.... D- "You just can’t win." You summarize yourself your bad faith in the last sentence.... effectively nobody can argue and win an argument with someone who is of total bad faith....You presented a vicious circle like an argument, and instead of plainly saying your "truth" you arrange it for looking convincing to whom? You have decided that save for your 10,000 bucks equalizer ANYTHING else is placebo ? It is pitiful....Sorry.... You are more credulous than those you criticized, you need a warrent from a branded named engineered design written on a costly device like an equalizer to trust your own ears, if not, it is placebo effect for all of us in all experience with any unusual product or tweaks.... And for sure i guess you greatly fear placebo effect indeed ? No? My God! Why bashing all threads about any tweak? Do you lack of self confidence so much? |
It is not BS because he may seriously believe what he says or he is trying to protect an advertiser. Whatever. The marketing and the premise are total BS. Follow this fellow and see if he keeps them in his system. If he does then he is very susceptible to psychoacoustics. If he does not then he is FOS. You just can't win. |
@tablejockey , Nice find! The marketing is fabulous BS. What a riot. @tomic601 , Phew, I was worried you were having another manic break. Nice to here you are OK. God just works, no 0's or 1's. That's just us trying to understand. A long way off still. I just realized I am in trouble. My trusty old Sota Sapphire just walked out the door. Fortunately with a real nice young fellow who seems awfully happy to get it. But, I have not been without a turntable since I was....4 years old. Not kidding. Maybe a couple of weeks on vacation traveling but that is it. Sota is way behind schedule because of this dumb virus. My table is probably 3 months out. I think I'm going to have a seizure. Maybe if I get my wife to hide all the records it won't be so bad. |
Removes interfering energy and reduces a polarity of shear but does not reduce interference that travels between the record lip and the paper label..back and forth in and on the vinyl. That cannot be removed by this method. The stylus will see that traveling resonance before this device does its work. I wonder if they tried c360 or c385 brass as they are lower in speed than titanium and are more elastic. Very creative concept..like a tuning fork. Tom |
