What is the Phono stage you have finished with?

I believe that what Atmasphere was getting at was not that "the connectivity problem with whatever is downstream" cannot be surmounted, but the fact that doing so turns the phono stage into a "phono stage with a robust enough output stage to be the equivalent of a line stage with a phono stage built in and then with the other stuff that a line stage does taken out."

I don't think he thinks it is impossible at all. I am absolutely confident that Ralph could make a world class standalone phono stage which could drive an amp through a very long cable. That said, as he says, the output stage of that phono stage would resemble his preamp, and I am sure that he thinks that there are very few phono stages out there which have the same ability to drive an amp as the Atmasphere preamps do, and if they do, they might as well stick a switch and a couple of extra inputs and a volume control on it and call itself a full-function preamp.

I think he may have overstated things when he said "I don't see any phono stage that is really designed to do that" because I think there are several designers who do actually stick all that gain stage robustness in there. Saying something like that will almost always provide the opportunity for rebuttal because it's a big wide world out there. But it does not negate the rest of what he said.

What he did not say but may be inferred as his position is also relevant. Having to make two top-notch power supplies and two top-notch output stages just to stick the phono stage into a separate box from the preamp/line stage is an avoidable expense and coloration.

I bet even Dan_Ed thinks that Nick Doshi could probably come up with a "passable" 2-chassis or 4-chassis preamp with the phono stage built in... and it would probably be cheaper to do (and might have fewer chassis) than the combination of a standalone pre and phono.

Its easy enough to find designers that will argue :)

Connectivity is another thing altogether so let's explore it.

Can you hear a difference between cables that go between your stand alone phone stage and the amplifier?

if no => connectivity is not a problem

if yes => connectivity *is* a problem.

Maybe that problem is solved by paying extra cash for more expensive cables. But think about it- next year that manufacturer (or some other one) will have the latest and greatest new cable. Is there anyone here that can tell me that's **not* the case??

The fact of the matter this goes on year after year. Well, what if you had a means to operate the cable such that the cheapest one you could find worked as well as any of the others? It is possible BTW.

That's what I mean by connectivity issues.

Yeah, I know I can find a few well regarded designers who'd pick that bone with Atmasphere and Raul. :-)

I beg to differ in your comment "as soon as you break the phono stage out to a seperate box, you have an connectivity problem with whatever is downstream. You see, one of the functions of a line stage is to control the interconnect cable. I don't see any phono stage that is really designed to do that, so the interconnect between the phono section and whatever follows (line stage, power amp) is critical."

You can't use such a globally all-inclusive statement like that. It very much depends on the designer as to whether a phono stage has been appropriately designed to work with other components. I have zero problems with my Herron phono stage interacting with my Herron cables into my Herron line stage interacting with the downstream Herron cables into my Herron amps. I know for a first-hand fact that the phono stage was designed to interact with other quality components upstream and downstream.

I think ARC also tests their components extensively for good interaction as do some others.

Can't speak for some of the other less expensive phono stages. Maybe that's what your referring to.

I do agree with your statement regarding a passive volume control.

Raul is correct- as soon as you break the phono stage out to a seperate box, you have an connectivity problem with whatever is downstream.

You see, one of the functions of a line stage is to control the interconnect cable. I don't see any phono stage that is really designed to do that, so the interconnect between the phono section and whatever follows (line stage, power amp) is critical. Then there is the matter of the volume control... a passive control and the attendant interconnections only offer more coloration rather than less, as well as a reduction of impact. As soon as you have these features built into a phono section (to get around these issues), you essentially have a full function preamp that is otherwise lacking the the switching and aux inputs.

the quality performance on your analog rig will be the quality performance on the " poorer/poorly " link on that analog chain and IMHO that line stage ( where the cartridge signal must pass ) that you own is that " poor/weak " link, so IMHO it will be a better choice/alternative to see the phono stage change ( for a quality improvement ) like a whole: pho/line stages, as a fact and IMHO these two stages most be in reality one integrated ( synergy ) unit.

IMHO it does not make sense to buy a " Ferrari " with bicycle tyres.

Agree with Rauliruegas -

Hence, the Leben RS-30EQ

Tube rolling to this day...

A Simaudio LP5.3

VTL TP6.5: after I've heard quite a lot of other phono preamps, like Tron, Tom Evans, Aesthetic, Nagra, Blue Amp, Audia Flight, ASR.

PS Audio GCPH - granted, low in the food chain compared to many here, but it does a great job in my system!

atma-sphere mp-1 mkIII.

great linestage as an add on too.

I have an early Herron VTPH-1MC, serial number < 10. It has all the mods through around mid-2001.

I'm completely satisfied with it. Very detailed without being analytical or too polite, pinpoint imaging with a huge and deep soundstage, transparent, very flat frequency response, dynamic, musical, very pulse coherent.

The newer current production version of the Herron phono stage is supposed to be a little better but I haven't heard it.

I thought I could live with a Sutherland (good for price/performance)for a year, while I go about auditioning some phono stages to settle with.

I heard the Allnic 3000 after 2 months at a friends place, and the game was all over for me then. it suited my preference and expectation. I look forward to having their new varibale version soon (this month).

I am sure there are lots of phono-preamps that meet people's expectation out there, and similar to me at the end of the day, you don't know any better till yuou hear the unit in your system.
Cheers
Nev

Like many here I tried loads, and I mean loads. The valve (tube) units just didn't quite do it for me, not just the noise and lack of gain issue BUT the tube warmth I couldn't get on with. So I plunged for the Whest MC REF V for my big system and the new PS.30RDT Special Edition for my second/main system. Yeh, I now think I am there !

Lewm, I've heard the Alibic H3000 phono stage a few times in dallas and in Austin, I have 2 friends that own it.

It's a killer killer phono stage, among the very best for sure.

It's one of those components I'd be afraid to bring home for audition. Mostly because the bank will be calling the next with a overdraft notice :)

After a very cursory review of the posts above, I note that no one has listed an Allnic phono stage as his or her favorite. Have any of you auditioned the Allnic, either the H3000 or the H1500? I am intrigued by the LCR RIAA equalization. Few if any other commercial products employ this type of network.

So I have now had my Nagra VPS and VFS for over 2 years. It's a wonderful phono stage. I am sure you can spend more and get a better. However, in my system my toes are always tapping, just great tonality, natural, and imaging.

Really a great phono stage.

sorry T-Bone my message is not complete; The TRON 7 Reference is the one I have settle with after having those list of phonos.

Sebastian, does that mean the ear 324 is the one you've settled on?

Recently, I have been using the phono stage in the Pioneer C-Z1 preamp from 30yrs ago. Very very quiet.

Over the last decade or so I have owned an Exposure 13, EAR 834P (with and without MC4 transformer), EAR 324, Lehmann Black Cube SE, Naim Prefix/Supercap, Benz Lukaschek PP-1, Michell/Trichord Delphini, Brinkmann Fein, plus in-built phono stages in a Jeff Rowland Concenra, Accuphase E-406, Audio Note M2 and Audible Illusions M3A.

I have also spent at least a week each with an Enstein Turntable's Choice, EAR 88PB, Tom Evans GrooveX, Pass AlephOno, Connoisseur Definitions and a few other lesser phono stages not worth mentioning.

The one that remains is the Exposure 13. It is (was) a fraction of the price of many here, but has not been made for some years and is now quite rare. It has a fixed 470 ohm loading. It is probably exceeded in many respects by many of the phono stages I have mentioned - eg the EAR 324 is quieter and more versatile, the Tom Evans is tonaly more neutral, the Einstein has a more liquid midrange - but for all-round musicality, the thing that makes you forget the equipment and focus on the music - I have not heard anything to beat it. In fact, I recently picked up a second one.

after having owned these : blue circle 22-707, whest 2.0, einstein the tt choice, burmester 011, cary ph 302, karan ka lp, cat legend, artemis pl-1, fm acoustics 222 mk3, ear 324.

The casework for the Whest PS.30RDT SE is in black but the standard casework for the PS.30RDT is silver. You can get Whest to provide a PS.30RDT in black for an extra charge (which is what I did). The cheesy photos of the PS.30RDT SE on the Whest Audio website do not do justice to the appearance of the black casework actually looks much better than it appears in the Whest photos. In general, I think that Whest would serve themselves if they put some effort into improving the appearance of their website.

A nagra PLP which is a very good preamp as well , i have not tried many at home, i have owned ARC sp 6 with build in phono which had not enough gain also a jasmine LP 2.0 with seperate power supply which is cheap and good , i am now 42 years old , i will probaly have an all Zanden system in a few years time and call it a day , as that is the best i have heard so far i have not heard it in my own system though its just a gut feeling,and a more esoteric player .

Another vote for Whest Audio. James Henriott, the gifted designer and proprietor of this UK company is probably the friendliest, most polite person you will ever meet or deal with in the somewhat idiosynchratic world of high end audio personalities. Thre weeks ago I visited James at his office/manufacturing facility in Brentford, near London (about 30 miles from my house) and 'upgraded' my PS.30 RDT for the new 'Special Edition' model fitted with Clarity Caps, the new fully discrete bipolar transistor input stage, updated RIAA filter capacitors and reworked power supply. The sound from vinyl is absolutely superb, seeming to offer the best from solid state and tube designed phono stages. Oh, and the casework is now all black!

I have dealt with Whest Audio personally, and I can say that they not only make fine phono stage products, but they are a fine company to deal with. Their customer service is very good. I have a Whest PS30RDT and I would describe it as having a "sweet" sound. Admittedly, this is a very inarticulate description but it produces a somewhat unconstrained sound and a nice 3-dimensional soundstage.

Let me say that you have to be very careful when comparing phono stages because you rarely get an apples-to-apples comparison. There are differences in gain (even for what are supposed to be comparable settings) and differences in load resistor values - each of these can affect the sound of the unit in your system.

At the end of day:
A custom made unit with 6 Phono inputsAll tube phono stage.
Full Differential Balanced phono SRPP.
Split passive RIAA.
Full silver wired.
Pure L_C power supply with double channel (= 2x) B+ rectification, with single wave tube rectifiers.
NO electrolytics - all foil capacitors PS.
Custom designed transformer coupled volume control.
All resistors Tantal 2W.
All coupling capacitors silver/oil, PTFE and silver mica.
2 cabinets.
2 x 42 lbs.
Shock isolating frames with 3 hz suspension.

Wright Phono AG. A classic.

The Aesthetix IO Signature with one power supply. I have listened to Pass XOno, ASR Exclusive, Einstein and BAT products.

These are all great products but I decided to keep the IO. Tube rush, I had minimal at first, can be addressed with tube matching. No tube rush, no electrical interferences or other issues for almost 5 years now and I play my music loud sometimes.

The factors that I like about the IO are that in deep listening with music, sometime I swear as if I am hearing other artifacts in my room such as a sounds coming from behind me, sounds like a door knock sometimes (no, not inside my head, ha) or voices jumping from deep backgrounds that startle you; it is this essence that I realize that the IO is giving me the pretty much all I would ever want from music. The IO gives me a deep and wide soundstage with the ability to draw you into the music emotionally.

The bass is very deep and hits with a solid thwack, the mid frequencies and highs are balanced just right with no accentuation from any of the frequencies, only from what is on the music. When I play an LP, I hear pretty much all of the details of what is in the grooves. Should an LP be a crappy recording, I will know it, if it is a good one; you will know it as well. You can discern the differences in the quality of recordings and best of all, recordings that you thought were mediocre before might end up sounding better because that information is being captured better by the IO, but a real crappy recording will always sound crappy, no matter how good the system. Voices are just incredible, I hear the breathing patterns and opening and closing of musicians lips as they sing into the microphone or hear the breathing patterns of trumpeters as they start to blow into the trumpet and experience the process of embouchure with the trumpet players. With the brass, lots of times I hear the brass player moving on stage and can visualize where he is moving as he plays. This is incredibly unbelievable as I never experienced that before.

Piano hits are startling as well and the ability to see a portrait of multiple pianists in the soundstage is incredible. What gets me going about piano’s is that on some LP’s you can hear two distinct piano’s or one piano and one keyboard but they are in their own time and space on the soundstage and when you hear one piano playing the keys rowing from upper left to lower right, then you feel as if the piano is actually right there situated in that space. Many of these so called ah moments have occurred with the IO. Those have become my standards in listening to music. I know now because I have experienced it for myself.

Like one of the previous posts above, deciding if I should even take it to the next level with the IO Eclipse upgrade.

I am using the Benz LP with the settings at 62 db gain, 1000 ohm and all tube front end, (pre and mono amps) system from Octave electronics in Germany driving B&W N800's. Music has never sounded better to my wife’s or mine ears.
Ciao,
Audioquest4life

I use the versatile PS Audio GCPH and I have no complaints what so ever, now that I settled on the correct interconnect and power cord combo in my system.

had Ear834p, GSP Era Gold V, Audible Illusions built in phono stage, Plinius Jarrah, Black Cube by Lehmann.
Done with them all and have settled with the Tron Seven Phono stage. Couldn't be happier!
If ever I was to upgrade in the future, the Lamm LP2 would be my top pick.

simply awesome for the money!

My 4 chassis Alaap is not going anywhere!

After 5 years of enjoying the EAR 834p, I recently upgraded to an Aesthetix Rhea and after one week thi shas turned out to be a logical and wise upgrade. Overall the results are a more refined, extended and dynamic presentation. Also the channel separation is greater and this makes for a wider and deeper field. The Rhea gets my vote as a logcal upgrade choice for EAR 834p owners.

K&K for now, it beat out the ear 834 and jlti. Though all 3 of them are excellent at their respective price points.

I was using the onboard phono stage on my Rotel RC-1082 preamp - was pleased with the performance until I TRIED a Graham Slee Era Gold Mk V. Made a sonic difference for the better. I had been researching the pluses of a seperate phono stage because I was curious what i was missing out on. My dealer (Sound World in Houston) was kind enough to allow me to demo the unit in my home. I have expereince better bass response, better soundstage and more air plus in is blacker between notes. Will be a good upgrade.

I have a zyx artisan coupled with a universe
great sounding

only pre I'd consider upgrading to is the doshi
mega buck there

I also use a ASR Basis Exc. and I have no idea where it went?! It was in my rack...now its gone. It appears ONLY after I turn the music off. The only other Phono pre that I like equally as much (just for its unique sound) is the JLTI (Vacuum State).

Good luck.

Spiro

Heed Audio Quasar. Man does this one fly under the radar. It's wonderful.

I have the ZYX Artisan, and I like it enough (despite it being the only SS gain component in an otherwise tube gain chain) that it is in no danger of getting 'upgraded' any time soon.

Went from a Phd Sutherland to a Nagra VPS. Cleaner highs and better bass definition and more of it. The tube only output which I tried/discovered last week is the best that I have heard. For rock you can always switch to the SS output. I don't really need to switch cart loading etc. so don't really miss the absence of a remote .Highly recommended that you give this a listen and then let your ears decide.
Best of luck.

TRON phono stage on board my TRON Meteor tube preamp. This is very similar to the current top spec TRON Syren.

Charlie

Sonofijn, I won't answer for Dgad. I also have the TW Acustik phono stage that Dgad recommended I have a listen to. Dgad also has the TRON.

Yes, the TW does deliver in the lower frequencies, however it is not as obvious as some phono stages with SUT or SS. At first I thought it lacked a little bass depth and dynamics. I now don't feel any lack of bass whatsoever. It is not quite as explosive as say the ASethetix IO. Now I feel it does not have the mid bass forwardness a lot of phono stages have, it is better balanced.

Yes it is quiet for a tube phono and can be turned up to loud without any tube rush in my system.
I had tube rush/noise issues in the past with Aesthetix IO and rhea as well as cj prem 15.

there are lots of phono choices out there, and the TW is another top shelf alternative

cheers

Dgad,
Does the TW Phono deliver in the lower frequencies as well? I'm still strongly considering an AC3 as a table upgrade but phono stages continue to confound me. Did you compare the TW phono with the Tron 7(another Catalano recommendation)? Do you find the TW to be quiet for a tubed phono(an area where many tubed phonos seem to fall down a bit)?

I've had a Herron Audio MC tube phono stage for 5-6 years.

Last year I had to change the tubes (one died and the others were ready to), but I would not think of changing it.

Beautiful, smooth, detailed sound.

I am finished w the TW Phono. Had quite a few including a custom phono, a Groove & a few more. The TW allows you to use 3 cartridges & change loading on the fly. It also has the best highs & mids I have ever heard from Vinyl. No SUT which is a big plus for cartridge compatability & matching with a SUT. Pure tube but not mushy. 3 tubes total. I guess you can say I am done barring hearing a Boulder which might not be better just different.

Hello James,

I'm very happy with the Whest Audio PS30 RDT .. you 'll read about this unit in next future
Probably the best bargain within 10.000 USD$

Although I am a dealer for Art Audio I would still recommend you take a listen to the Vinyl Reference Phono Preamp. You can google it to catch the reviews. A serious piece of audio equipment. I do apologize for being a dealer however, it is just that I like to listen to good stuff as well.

Until I can afford the Manley Steelhead, I will live very happy with the Simaudio LP5.3 phonostage and PSX5.3 power supply

The Rossner and Sohn Canofer-S is my favorite. By far the quietest and the most detailed phono stage I have ever used.

My K&K will do me indefinitely, quiet, detailed good soundstage, but above all, it flows like music should. Coped with a number of cartridges including Koetsu Rosewwod Signature, Zyx Airy 3. I am sure there are better, but at the price, under $2000? I do'nt think so.

I absolutely love my Artemis Labs Ph-1. It's an all tube design using 6n1p's, 12ax7's and 5687's giving about 52dB of gain without the use of any step up transformers. Loading is completely adjustable by simply plugging resistors in the back panel of the unit. Extremely well built. The key with this one is you must put a lot of hours on it to break in fully resulting in a wonderful harmonic bloom, excellent micro and macro dynamics. Without the full break in, it is only mediocre at best. Also, I leave mine on all the time unless thunderstorms are in the area. With only 52dB of gain on tap, you must keep the cartridge output at roughly .8mV or higher unless you want to put a step up transformer in front of it. If used within these constraints, it is a truly remarkable phono stage.